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Old 12-03-2014, 01:40 AM #3665
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Looks like very good points. Looks can be deceiving.
I must say although very convincing, I am still convinced otherwise.
First I have been convinced of intelligent design, and then I have been convinced of the God of the bible.
@Shakenawake-You have made very good points, but have you ever watched "Privileged Planet" by Illustra Media? About | Intelligent Design Movies ? Illustra Media

I like to hear what everyone says, Shakenawake, I'd like to know your take on this topic? Do you believe in a God.
An actual link would be helpful...

http://youtu.be/ClarWNaCEVM



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Last edited by Lazerbeak; 12-03-2014 at 01:50 AM. Reason: video not working + aliens and stuff
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:53 AM #3666
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
An actual link would be helpful...

http://youtu.be/ClarWNaCEVM



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Thank you.
Also, A case for a creator, and Flight are two good other DVD's that might be able to be found on YT.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-03-2014 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:18 AM #3667
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Vatican preparing statement on extraterrestrial life - Honolulu exopolitics | Examiner.com

Quote:
Pope Francis is reportedly preparing a major world statement about extraterrestrial life and its theological implications. Rosana Ubanell from Voxxi News today reported that due to advances in scientific detection methods for the discovery of extraterrestrial life, Pope Francis wants to be ready with a statement about “First Contact”. Ubanell reports that details have yet to be officially announced but that the Vatican’s interest in extraterrestrial life is well documented through recent astrobiology conferences the Vatican Observatory has sponsored or participated in.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:29 AM #3668
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

don't have that kind of time to spend, but I believe I am familiar with the film and accompanying arguement. it's actually a subject I know a lot about, not a casual disagreement.

lazerbeak, it's good to have you back. you always have the best pics with interjections. plus I love birds, your avatar cracks me up for some reason.

anyway, as I was saying, the arguement is essentially that Earth's position is too lucky and there are too many interconnected and interdependant sytsems necessary for our survival, for our survival to be mere chance? that means a god must have made it just so, precarious and fragile as it is, with just us in mind?

I hope I represented the arguement well. If I did, here is my response:

first, I think I have heard some of the supposed figures on the probability of earth's setup in the film being made to seem impossible, even with a universe as expansive as ours. these numbers are improperly derived, but that's another issue.

a lottery winner is lucky. but a lottery winner is inevitable. there are so many stars and planets in the universe that a setup like ours is probably many times more probable than winning the lottery. does a lottery winner look into a vast crowd, notice a distinct lack of lottery winners, and think, 'it must be impossible for anyone but me to win the lottery, therefore, god helped me win the lottery?'

well, actually, I've no doubt lottery winners may thank god, but that's no indication he's the cause. Here's an experiment. gather all lottery winners of over a certain $$$ limit, then do a survey on their beliefs. I'm sure that if all those were in god's favor, it'd reflect in their beliefs about him. hence they would be in 100% agreement about the particulars in relation to god, and could then instruct the rest of us. you wont do the experiment, because you already know it wont work, and plus, the richest people already instruct us. it's interesting to note that many of the richest are also the ones pushing religion as a thing for the people, who are not rich.

I see our species as having arisen due to many of these lucky combinations, but like a dandilion growing in the crack of the sidewalk. sure the dandilion shows great strength and can survive, but the sidewalk was by no means designed for dandelions.

life, like almost every system in nature, is a system of emergence

Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I personally find the truth far more fascinating and awe inspiring than any contrived story of man ever could be. it's the closest I come to being what some call spiritual, the realizition of the interconnectedness of everything.

I'd rather be vindicated than forgiven. I should make that into a shirt
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:35 AM #3669
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Do you believe in a God.


Ok, it's not exact, but it's what I thought of..

USAbro, have you read Leviticus or Deuteronomy in the old testament? This is in regards to the whole "homo***uality is a sin". Leviticus is often quoted by those who believe this. If you have not read it, please do so, as there is a lot of other "sins" in Leviticus and deuteronomy that everyone ignores.

Like (paraphrasing from memory):
If a child disobeys (or curses)their parents, they are to be stoned to death.
If a man touches the bed of a women during her period, he is to be put to death.
Don't shave or cut your hair.
Psychics, wizards, sorcerers, ect.. are to be stoned to death.
ect...

Plenty of strange "rules" that make no sense. I mean, the only one from these chapters that anyone tries to promote is "homo***uality is very very bad".
Just saying.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:38 AM #3670
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Shakenawake...
Quote:
Winning the Lotto and Emergence...
Thank you, nice to be back Interconnectedness, that sounds good The video is really long and pretty biased and narrow in its view of what constitutes a habitable planet. Also is probably a very expensive DVD.

ChaosLord (Lord of Chaos)...
Quote:
Youtube video of pure awesomeness, crazy rules.
Being a Wizard would be cool.

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Sorry, back to our regularly scheduled program...



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Old 12-03-2014, 05:16 AM #3671
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
This is one of the reasons I'm happy to be Canadian. We have a complete separation of church and state, and as we learn we adapt and change.

Country wide gay marriage. And everyone is happier for it.
Now we just need to work on the separation of the corporations and the state. The telecom's pretty much own the CRTC
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Old 12-03-2014, 07:58 AM #3672
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The argument from design is one of the more easily debunked arguments that christian apologists have. My go to analogy is a puddle thinking the hole in the ground it fills must have been made for them because they fit into it perfectly.

The funny thing is these odds of probability are absolutely impossible to know. If you knew just a basic understanding of statistics you would see why this these claims are bogus from the start.

When determining the odds of probability you are simply are looking at the ratio of favorable results compared to possible results. Nothing more. The favorable results are given an assigned value by us. For example, take a deck of cards and shuffle them well. In a 4 player deal, the odds of being dealt all 13 spades is 1 in 635,013,550,600. Although this seems incredibly unlikely it happens. If you look across the table to your friend and see her hand is made up of all different suits and numbers in a somewhat lousy random hand. The odds of your friends hand is the EXACT same as your 13 spades. Every possible hand has the same odds and with enough deals the impossible becomes the inevitable.

So to compare and contrast this analogy to the creationists claims. Lets say being dealt all 13 spades represents life originating on earth by natural means. Lets also say they do their calculations and come up with a 1 in 635,013,550,600 chance like the card analogy. BUT... they are making it sound so incredible because they are describing it as if there was only ONE hand dealt ever. They pretend to somehow know life only had one opportunity to arise?


Why exactly on a planet that is billions of years old was there only this one shot at glory for life. In all actually every single natural event and phenomena could have been an opportunity for life. Every meteor or comet slamming into earth, every lightning strike in the primordial soup, billions and billions of hands of cards being dealt for billions of years. In other words when you remove the many creationist assumptions the seemingly impossible starts to take form as being quite possible.

But hey, it sells lots of videos and gives creationist all kinds of impressive sounding bullshit to spew on Youtube and at the pulpit.
The men and women doing these calculations know all this is BS yet report it as fact because they know most other people do NOT understand how probabilities are calculated. Educate yourself and question things. Look into it for yourselves.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:32 AM #3673
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosLord View Post


Ok, it's not exact, but it's what I thought of..

USAbro, have you read Leviticus or Deuteronomy in the old testament? This is in regards to the whole "homo***uality is a sin". Leviticus is often quoted by those who believe this. If you have not read it, please do so, as there is a lot of other "sins" in Leviticus and deuteronomy that everyone ignores.

Like (paraphrasing from memory):
If a child disobeys (or curses)their parents, they are to be stoned to death.
If a man touches the bed of a women during her period, he is to be put to death.
Don't shave or cut your hair.
Psychics, wizards, sorcerers, ect.. are to be stoned to death.
ect...

Plenty of strange "rules" that make no sense. I mean, the only one from these chapters that anyone tries to promote is "homo***uality is very very bad".
Just saying.
I understand where your coming from but certain things like shaving I don't actually remember but I believe you I just have to look it up, they were rituals Gods people had to go through, just like they had to sacrifice lams, now God has payed through his son so we don't have to follow the rituals any more.
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:38 AM #3674
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
The argument from design is one of the more easily debunked arguments that christian apologists have. My go to analogy is a puddle thinking the hole in the ground it fills must have been made for them because they fit into it perfectly.

The funny thing is these odds of probability are absolutely impossible to know. If you knew just a basic understanding of statistics you would see why this these claims are bogus from the start.

When determining the odds of probability you are simply are looking at the ratio of favorable results compared to possible results. Nothing more. The favorable results are given an assigned value by us. For example, take a deck of cards and shuffle them well. In a 4 player deal, the odds of being dealt all 13 spades is 1 in 635,013,550,600. Although this seems incredibly unlikely it happens. If you look across the table to your friend and see her hand is made up of all different suits and numbers in a somewhat lousy random hand. The odds of your friends hand is the EXACT same as your 13 spades. Every possible hand has the same odds and with enough deals the impossible becomes the inevitable.

So to compare and contrast this analogy to the creationists claims. Lets say being dealt all 13 spades represents life originating on earth by natural means. Lets also say they do their calculations and come up with a 1 in 635,013,550,600 chance like the card analogy. BUT... they are making it sound so incredible because they are describing it as if there was only ONE hand dealt ever. They pretend to somehow know life only had one opportunity to arise?


Why exactly on a planet that is billions of years old was there only this one shot at glory for life. In all actually every single natural event and phenomena could have been an opportunity for life. Every meteor or comet slamming into earth, every lightning strike in the primordial soup, billions and billions of hands of cards being dealt for billions of years. In other words when you remove the many creationist assumptions the seemingly impossible starts to take form as being quite possible.

But hey, it sells lots of videos and gives creationist all kinds of impressive sounding bullshit to spew on Youtube and at the pulpit.
The men and women doing these calculations know all this is BS yet report it as fact because they know most other people do NOT understand how probabilities are calculated. Educate yourself and question things. Look into it for yourselves.
Then if that is what you say, isn't life hopeless? What is there to live for? Why are we here? If we all are just a process of random chance, then why
are you still living and do you have anything to live for?
I can't see how anyone can look at the facts, how relationships between certain animals and humans and everything fits so well together, I just don't see how it evolved............please continue on.
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:40 PM #3675
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

your characterization of evolution reveals your ignorance of it. if you really understood it, you'd never say it was "just a process of random chance". and because my life is IS FINITE, it has INFINITLY more value per year than a life that is INFINITE. In other words, I give my life meaning, I have not gone all in on a promise that I can't confirm until death.

basically all your agruements so far have been pretty garden-variety. I've heard them all before, and many more that you probably have not considered.

at least you have not said, "if we came from monkeys then how come there's still monkeys?"

because that's like asking, "If Americans immigrated from europe then how come there's still europeans?"

I predict willful ignorance will continue to be a big mental block in your life, but fear not, you are not alone, there are many that share the belief, which of course helps all these parties justify it to themselves

I speak from experience, as I used to believe more or less as you do
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Then if that is what you say, isn't life hopeless? What is there to live for? Why are we here? If we all are just a process of random chance, then why
are you still living and do you have anything to live for?
I can't see how anyone can look at the facts, how relationships between certain animals and humans and everything fits so well together, I just don't see how it evolved............please continue on.
I don't think a person has to believe that they are not the process of natural development to feel that life itself is worth living.

Do adopted kids (random births, not wanted to happen, inconvenient, etc...) have a reason to live? Can they enjoy and appreciate life?

I think they can.

If for example, I exist because some rocks in space crashed into each other, and the debris eventually became our moon, and caused tides that washed potential nutrients between the two phases, leading to bacteria that lived in the oxygen free air (CO2, methane, etc...), which then lead to microbes that off gassed oxygen and consumed the prior atmosphere so earth lost its protective atmosphere and was instead bathed in toxic oxygen...and froze over....and then some microbes under the frozen shell evolved a way to metabolize oxygen, and consume enough of the toxic oxygen so the greenhouse effect could once again warm the planet and melt the ice, leading to a new set of organisms that metabolized oxygen, and gave of CO2, which allowed them more energy and the ability to grow more complex, energy dependent systems, and become multicelled, and then have organs, grow to enourmous size and rule the planet for millions of years, and then be wiped out by some combination of gamma ray bursts and metear strikes, etc, so that wee furry creatures would then have no competition, and be able to grow and thrive and and eventually type things in online posts about whether they think they need to feel created to appreciate their lives....then, I think THAT'S pretty special, and, I would NOT want to WASTE that opportunity to LIVE.

The analogy about a puddle of water looking at the hole in the ground it rests in, and thinking "This hole fits me PERFECTLY! It MUST have been made just for me by an intelligent creator...as, what are the ODDS that a hole of these EXACT dimensions was created by CHANCE?!"...seems to fit.

IE: If you were to ask what the odds of earth existing were, with 20/20 hindsight, I'd say 100%.

The earth has had MANY different appearances...and, NONE of the prior ones worked for US, and, other creatures had to go extinct for our predecessors to have a fighting chance at surviving.

WE have only been around for a blink of an eye compared to say the dinosaurs, so its a bit conceited to assume we are the end point either.

So, the earth formed, and, in this formation that exists right now, we evolved to fit it, just like the water flowed into the hole and became a puddle.

So, what gives you hope?

Are you without hope if you were to find out that LIFE is the gift, and, appreciate it as the amazing phenomenon it is?

Or, are you the kind of person who is so terrified of ENDING that you need to pretend that when you die you keep going and spend eternity being rewarded for the few decades you were alive, or, punished for it?

Can you live because you CAN, or, because you are working on some sort of reward system for after you die?

Can you reconcile "Thou Shall Not Kill"....with god killing the first born?

Can you reconcile that with god not sinning?

Why bring plagues and kill the innocent children if GOD is BEGGING/NEGOTIATING with the Pharaoh to "Let" the people go?

Why not just kill the Pharaoh or turn him into a newt, etc, if you are all powerful and can do anything, and (AND have a plan for every one of those innocent children and bereaved parents who had their children murdered by god, so god could use it as leverage against a MAN)?

If god could speak to Moses, why could he not just TELL the Pharaoh that the jews are leaving, and that he'll turn the Pharaoh into a newt if he interferes?

Why would an all powerful supreme perfect being need to NEGOTIATE with a MAN in the first place? His PLAN for the Pharaoh and the Egyptians, etc, was to go through all this crap and get all those people killed, for nothing?

Really, that's the PERFECT plan?


So, anyway - How did it all evolve so it all fits together so well? Because the water flowed into the hole and became a puddle nestled into a hole...fitting perfectly.

We EVOLVED to fit the environment, and the other living things evolved to fit THEIR environments.

Its not about "How could a goat be so well adapted to leap about on cliffs on steep mountain sides, and how can a fish have gills to breath underwater?"

Its about why goats DON'T have gills and fish SUCK and leaping about cliff faces, etc....so the goats evolved to be agile climbers and the fish evolved to swim in the water.

Its not like some cosmic puzzle maker had to think, and say, OK, I have these goat things and these fish things, where should I put them...lets see, hmmm...we have a deep puddle, I'll put the goat in it, and a mountain to put the fish on! Perfect! There are no goats in the ocean (on purpose) because that's a terrible place for a goat. Its not because some intelligent being decided not to put them there.

If you think about what evolution REALLY IS, you would come to understand that it explains everything we see about adapting to environments (Flowing into the hole)

Take common examples, say dogs. We can take two dogs with traits we like, and breed them together, and get dogs with that trait, and then keep doing that until the trait is magnified.

In nature, the same thing is occurring. Natural mutations occur at fairly predictable rates for different species. Some species are slow, and some are faster, etc...but, its a pattern.

So if a snake is born with two heads, and, it HELPS the snake get food/find mates, etc...some factor which leads to that two headed snake breeding and increasing the odds for MORE two headed snakes...that mutation is kept and magnified, so eventually, there might be more two headed than one headed snakes...or, the two headed ones might find a niche in the environment where they can compete, and just exist there alone, etc.

If a scale were to have a gene mutate that lead to it being hollow and curled around itself, that would trap more air, and, might be lighter...and, that reptile might survive better, passing on that trait and, over time, that turned into feathers, so the creatures were able to survive more extreme temperatures, develop camouflage or attractive mating features, etc...and, eventually, some lizards for example that leap from branch to branch can go farther because of the feathers...and, that trait starts to get passed along.

If I have a kid who can fly...and he passes that gene for flight along to HIS kids, but, while flight is cool, you don't NEED it to live...there would be old school walkers like me, and, some cool kids who could fly.

So, there would be people who walked, and survived just fine as we were already successful...AND people who could fly, at the same time.

IE: I personally did not EVOLVE into a flying person...but SOME of my progeny DID. So, both walkers and flyers are both present, at the same time.

This is why there are monkeys and Monkees. SOME ancestors of the Monkees used to look more like monkeys...and, while the monkeys were adapted to the forests and jungles they evolved to fit into, the Monkees were not, and they needed an agent to survive instead of a jungle, etc. The Monkees evolved to fit a niche (A band like the Beatles only who'd work for cheap, etc...), and, well, monkeys could not do this, as well at least.

So, when the environment CHANGES, say after an ice age, meteor strike, volcanic eruptions, tectonic plate shifts, etc...a creature ADAPTED to that prior environment may not be able to deal with the changes, and, perish. Others might be able to hang on long enough to breed, and, the off spring are proportionally more likely to have the traits that allowed their parents to survive, and so on and so forth.

IE: The hole the puddle was in is run over by a tractor trailer, and goes from a round oval bottomed hole 2 feet across to a 6' long 1' wide rectangular trough with a tread pattern on the bottom...and the old water is splashed out by the tire....and, some evaporates, and some trickles back into the new hole...and some ends up in nearby holes as new puddles.

So, then, each new puddle looks at ITS hole, and exclaims "What are the odds that a hole that fits me PERFECTLY would happen by CHANCE?!"

And the answer is what you need to come to grips with to move on.



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Old 12-03-2014, 02:14 PM #3677
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
I don't think a person has to believe that they are not the process of natural development to feel that life itself is worth living.

Do adopted kids (random births, not wanted to happen, inconvenient, etc...) have a reason to live? Can they enjoy and appreciate life?

I think they can.

If for example, I exist because some rocks in space crashed into each other, and the debris eventually became our moon, and caused tides that washed potential nutrients between the two phases, leading to bacteria that lived in the oxygen free air (CO2, methane, etc...), which then lead to microbes that off gassed oxygen and consumed the prior atmosphere so earth lost its protective atmosphere and was instead bathed in toxic oxygen...and froze over....and then some microbes under the frozen shell evolved a way to metabolize oxygen, and consume enough of the toxic oxygen so the greenhouse effect could once again warm the planet and melt the ice, leading to a new set of organisms that metabolized oxygen, and gave of CO2, which allowed them more energy and the ability to grow more complex, energy dependent systems, and become multicelled, and then have organs, grow to enourmous size and rule the planet for millions of years, and then be wiped out by some combination of gamma ray bursts and metear strikes, etc, so that wee furry creatures would then have no competition, and be able to grow and thrive and and eventually type things in online posts about whether they think they need to feel created to appreciate their lives....then, I think THAT'S pretty special, and, I would NOT want to WASTE that opportunity to LIVE.

The analogy about a puddle of water looking at the hole in the ground it rests in, and thinking "This hole fits me PERFECTLY! It MUST have been made just for me by an intelligent creator...as, what are the ODDS that a hole of these EXACT dimensions was created by CHANCE?!"...seems to fit.

IE: If you were to ask what the odds of earth existing, with 20/20 hindsight, I'd say 100%.

The earth has had MANY different appearances...and, NONE of the prior ones worked for US, and, other creatures had to go extinct for our predecessors to have a fighting chance at surviving.

WE have only been around for a blink of an eye compared to say the dinosaurs, so its a bit conceited to assume we are the end point either.

So, the earth formed, and, in this formation that exists right now, we evolved to fit it, just like the water flowed into the hole and became a puddle.

So, what gives you hope?

Are you without hope if you were to find out that LIFE is the gift, and, appreciate it as the amazing phenomenon it is?

Or, are you the kind of person who is so terrified of ENDING that you need to pretend that when you die you keep going and spend eternity being rewarded for the few decades you were alive, or, punished for it?

Can you live because you CAN, or, because you are working on some sort of reward system for after you die?

Can you reconcile "Thou Shall Not Kill"....with god killing the first born?

Can you reconcile that with god not sinning?

Why bring plagues and kill the innocent children if GOD is BEGGING/NEGOTIATING with the Pharaoh to "Let" the people go?

Why not just kill the Pharaoh or turn him into a newt, etc, if you are all powerful and can do anything, and (AND have a plan for every one of those innocent children and bereaved parents who had their children murdered by god, so god could use it as leverage against a MAN)?

If god could speak to Moses, why could he not just TELL the Pharaoh that the jews are leaving, and that he'll turn the Pharaoh into a newt if he interferes?

Why would an all powerful supreme perfect being need to NEGOTIATE with a MAN in the first place? His PLAN for the Pharaoh and the Egyptians, etc, was to go through all this crap and get all those people killed, for nothing?

Really, that's the PERFECT plan?


So, anyway - How did it all evolve so it all fits together so well? Because the water flowed into the hole and became a puddle nestled into a hole...fitting perfectly.

We EVOLVED to fit the environment, and the other living things evolved to fit THEIR environments.

Its not about "How could a goat be so well adapted to leap about on cliffs on steep mountain sides, and how can a fish have gills to breath underwater?"

Its about why goats DON'T have gills and fish SUCK and leaping about cliff faces, etc....so the goats evolved to be agile climbers and the fish evolved to swim in the water.

Its not like some cosmic puzzle maker had to think, and say, OK, I have these goat things and these fish things, where should I put them...lets see, hmmm...we have a deep puddle, I'll put the goat in it, and a mountain to put the fish on! Perfect! There are no goats in the ocean (on purpose) because that's a terrible place for a goat. Its not because some intelligent being decided not to put them there.

If you think about what evolution REALLY IS, you would come to understand that it explains everything we see about adapting to environments (Flowing into the hole)

Take common examples, say dogs. We can take two dogs with traits we like, and breed them together, and get dogs with that trait, and then keep doing that until the trait is magnified.

In nature, the same thing is occurring. Natural mutations occur at fairly predictable rates for different species. Some species are slow, and some are faster, etc...but, its a pattern.

So if a snake is born with two heads, and, it HELPS the snake get food/find mates, etc...some factor which leads to that two headed snake breeding and increasing the odds for MORE two headed snakes...that mutation is kept and magnified, so eventually, there might be more two headed than one headed snakes...or, the two headed ones might find a niche in the environment where they can compete, and just exist there alone, etc.

If a scale were to have a gene mutate that lead to it being hollow and curled around itself, that would trap more air, and, might be lighter...and, that reptile might survive better, passing on that trait and, over time, that turned into feathers, so the creatures were able to survive more extreme temperatures, develop camouflage or attractive mating features, etc...and, eventually, some lizards for example that leap from branch to branch can go farther because of the feathers...and, that trait starts to get passed along.

If I have a kid who can fly...and he passes that gene for flight along to HIS kids, but, while flight is cool, you don't NEED it to live...there would be old school walkers like me, and, some cool kids who could fly.

So, there would be people who walked, and survived just fine as we were already successful...AND people who could fly, at the same time.

IE: I personally did not EVOLVE into a flying person...but SOME of my progeny DID. So, both walkers and flyers are both present, at the same time.

This is why there are monkeys and Monkees.

Wow. Very good long post. Took 10 minutes to read.
Anyways, back to the point. What gives me hope is that I am loved by a God who created me, that I'm not just here to fulfill my own selfish desires. I here to do the will of the God who created me.
Okay. Here's a question. Do you believe that Jesus existed?
Another. Have you seen miracles where are persons foot was bent and straightened, or a blind persons cloudy eye, cleared and they were able to see?
One reason many scientist don't want to believe in God is because if they did, they'd have to stop committing their regular habit of sins: living together unmarried, regular lying, stealing, and lots of others. If you say, "There is no God," then you MAY also be saying, "I just don't want to follow the rules."

These are all MY opinions, you can believe them if you want, but I'm not forcing you to or forcing anything upon you!
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Wow. Very good long post. Took 10 minutes to read.
Anyways, back to the point. What gives me hope is that I am loved by a God who created me, that I'm not just here to fulfill my own selfish desires. I here to do the will of the God who created me.
Okay. Here's a question. Do you believe that Jesus existed?
Another. Have you seen miracles where are persons foot was bent and straightened, or a blind persons cloudy eye, cleared and they were able to see?
One reason many scientist don't want to believe in God is because if they did, they'd have to stop committing their regular habit of sins: living together unmarried, regular lying, stealing, and lots of others. If you say, "There is no God," then you MAY also be saying, "I just don't want to follow the rules."

These are all MY opinions, you can believe them if you want, but I'm not forcing you to or forcing anything upon you!
I believe Jesus existed, as there is historical (Not just biblical) evidence of it. The evidence is that he was a member of a rebel group fighting the Romans. Many of the mistranslations in the bible trace back to this, and correlate with the facts. IE: When they wrote what happened hundreds of years after it happened, they got some of it wrong....such as confusing the name of the rebel group with the name of a town that did not exist until hundreds of years later...and saying Jesus came from the town that sounded like the name of the rebel group, not knowing the town didn't exist yet. IE: GOD didn't dictate while the scribes wrote down what he said, and the bible is NOT the word of god, its the words of the catholic church creating a religion.

I have seen doctors heal injuries, and charlatans pretend to, and, even those with psychological issues that were overcome by placebo effect and cured of their afflictions.

I think its a bit odd that you assume scientists have regular habits, at all, let alone that their habits include sinning regularly, etc?

To assume that if I don't believe in Leprechauns, it means I just don't want to follow the rules laid out by those who do believe in Leprechauns, is not really a compelling argument to believe in Leprechauns, or to explain why I don't believe in them.

It also assumes, incorrectly, that the ONLY reason a person would not, say, kill another person, is because they DON'T believe in god, is also a bit odd, in that I would not want to kill a person, and yet, its not because I think I'd be punished for it, its because I would feel bad for the person and their loved ones, etc.

I don't steal because I think its wrong. I married my wife because I love her, and wanted to be with her, not because I thought that if we lived together, it would anger the all seeing/all knowing Leprechaun who would then punish me for it.

Is it true for YOU?

In other words, are YOU saying that YOU would lie, steal, cheat, murder, etc, if YOU DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD?

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Old 12-03-2014, 02:50 PM #3679
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Sorry if I was unclear. No, they don't sin regularly, it's just I think no Gods lets them off the hook.

I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that most guys who don't believe in God, commit adultery, cheat on there wives and such because there is not man made law against it. But you may not, because it may not bring a person pleasure at the time. What I'm saying is, if you don't believe in God, you can do whatever brings you pleasure and Gods says not all things that bring you pleasure are allowed. However, when God is brought in the picture, he tells you not to.
Many people may just lie when it serves, them not all the time, but God says not to.
Another questions: Do you believe what Jesus said about himself?
Remember: The bible is historical.
If I didn't believe in God it would give me the freedom to lie as I see fitting and steal what I want when the opportunity is right.
Murdering doesn't typically bring pleasure, so I wouldn't do that.

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Old 12-03-2014, 02:55 PM #3680
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
Sorry if I was unclear. No, they don't sin regularly, it's just I think no Gods lets them off the hook.

I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that most guys who don't believe in God, commit adultery, cheat on there wives and such because there is not man made law against it. However, when God is brought in the picture, he tells you not to.
Many people may just lie when it serves, them not all the time, but God says not to.
Another questions: Do you believe what Jesus said about himself?
Remember: The bible is historical.
The bible is not historical, its a collection of borrowed stories from other cultures represented, sometimes all but verbatim. Its at best Westside Story vs Romeo and Juliet. Miracles and pithy sayings from antiquity were simply attributed to Jesus or the other cast members, as a way of "Myth Building", a common practice of organized religions. Tall tales are like that, making Paul Bunyan and his blue ox, etc, more real and more interesting/compelling to people. There's little in the bible that is NOT a version of a previous saying or story...they simply edited the story to make it compelling, inspiring, etc. As with most good lies, there are veins of truth threaded through it...and, these are the parts that REAL historical records overlap with, and confirm he existed....they just don't confirm that his dad was a Leprechaun.

IE: There really IS lightening and thunder. Saying its because the gods are fighting in the heavens to explain it combines what you know with what you don't, so its true that there's lightening and thunder, but its not true that its from the gods fighting in the heavens. There really WAS a man we call Jesus, and, he did lead revolts against the Romans, and, he did get caught and executed...but, the Church, hundreds of years later, borrowed from the MANY myth building stories, and had him later rise from the dead, just as so many before him.


You didn't answer the question, would YOU "sin" if you found out there was no god?

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