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Old 12-02-2014, 09:06 PM #3649
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
You are once again equating everyone's personal opinions as being equal
No. Merely that it isn't as simple as "keep your beliefs to yourself."

Quote:
Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
I believe homo***uality is wrong, but that doesn't mean I can't like people who are that way!
Knowing your friend is going to suffer eternal torment doesn't put a damper on your relationship?


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Old 12-02-2014, 09:11 PM #3650
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Knowing your friend is going to suffer eternal torment doesn't put a damper on your relationship?
No it doesn't, in fact, spending time with him/her, may give me a chance to share my beliefs, which may, in turn cause them to stop their way of living.

What I believe (I'm not forcing my opinions on you) is that if that person repents of their sins, and places their faith in the God I believe in, for the forgiveness of their sins, the God I believe in will forget about the sins committed and give eternal life instead of torment.

Did I explain this for you to understand? I may not have been clear, so ask away!

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Old 12-02-2014, 09:37 PM #3651
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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No it doesn't, in fact, spending time with him/her, may give me a chance to share my beliefs, which may, in turn cause them to stop their way of living.

What I believe (I'm not forcing my opinions on you) is that if that person repents of their sins, and places their faith in the God I believe in, for the forgiveness of their sins, the God I believe in will forget about the sins committed and give eternal life instead of torment.
:
I regret I only have two hands to face palm right now. Wow, you realy just said that. Usabro you have a long life ahead of you and I hope at some point you stop and question some things. Since you are so off the mark here It would be a waste of time to point out how repulsive and unfair your outlook is on homo***uality and your gods requirements to forgive. Ill just leave it at that.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:56 PM #3652
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
I regret I only have two hands to face palm right now. Wow, you realy just said that. Usabro you have a long life ahead of you and I hope at some point you stop and question some things. Since you are so off the mark here It would be a waste of time to point out how repulsive and unfair your outlook is on homo***uality and your gods requirements to forgive. Ill just leave it at that.
Hey man, it's all cool, just remember, it's not "my god." He is the God of the bible, and maybe you don't care about it but I'm just saying, this is how it is, it's not something I came up with.
The God I believe in says you must believe that his perfect son died on the cross to take the place of your sins. And if you believe your saved. But what it also says, is that if you say you believe and continue living in a way that the God I believe in says not to live, than you really don't believe, because if you did, you'd obey him out of gratitude.
Homo***uality is something he says is wrong, so if you continue this way your not saved from hell.

edit: I should also say that Gods grace to save is a free gift

I'M NOT CONDEMNING ANYONE HERE OR ANYWHERE-That is not my place. I am peacefully discussing my beliefs.

Last edited by USAbro; 12-02-2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:20 PM #3653
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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No it doesn't, in fact, spending time with him/her, may give me a chance to share my beliefs, which may, in turn cause them to stop their way of living.
Its not a "way of living". Its who they are, and how they are, and its not changeable, no matter how much you share your antiquated beliefs with them. Any "change" they would claim to go through would be a lie they make up to make people accept them and they end up unhappy.

This is one of the reasons I'm happy to be Canadian. We have a complete separation of church and state, and as we learn we adapt and change.

Country wide gay marriage. And everyone is happier for it.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:22 PM #3654
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Religion and science seem to share some properties in common usage.

For example, there are many religions, and, they all differ on aspects of who god is, and how to worship him or her, what happens after you die, if there is a heaven or hell, or other state to be in between those/instead of those, etc...and aspects of the chronologies....but the religions all essentially agree that there is a higher power or powers, and that's essentially what makes them religions.

There are many branches of science, and, they disagree on aspects of how the universe and our world came to be, and the involved chronologies, but they essentially agree on on the involved scientific principles.


So, different people have different needs, and different ways of interpreting what's going on around them, and, tend to have trouble understanding why OTHER PEOPLE don't see what they see.

I see some here (not all) seem to feel that all members of one belief system share a seeming cohort of other belief systems.

So, if a person (A christian in America for example) believes that there is a god, he must also be a republican, not believe in global warming, want to drill in Alaska for oil, be a member of the NRA, believe homo***uality is wrong, not believe in evolution, and other views that are issued automatically.

If the person is in the same situation but doesn't think that there is a god, he must be a democrat, believe in global warming, want to preserve wilderness areas, think assault weapon bans did reduce crime, be a homo***ual or at least accept it, believe in evolution and other views that are issued automatically.

In reality though, there seem to be people who have decided some issues independently, and might be NRA members who voted democratic, believe there's a god, but that evolution happens, and so forth.

So, if a scientist who studies the origins of the universe and the big bang also believes that there's a god, SOME other people can't quite accept that, and decide its a contradiction.

This leads to statements along the lines of "If you're not a christian, that means you believe the big bang happened".

That might be true, but, it also might be false.


So, scientists can debate aspects and details of what they think, and so can religions, but, that doesn't mean science, or religion, is baseless because the proponents disagree about details. (They can be baseless for other reasons of course...)

My own world view is simply that I know (KNOW) the universe has to be infinite...as there could not be "the other side" for space.

I KNOW that time is infinite, as you can't have a period before it, and, "after" it, as that's simply more of it.

I KNOW that matter and energy exist.

I have read from multiple sources that as you approach the speed of light, your mass increases, so it takes more energy to continue to accelerate.

I read that time slows as your speed increases as well.

I put that together, and it seems likely that matter is a function of energy, time and space. Time and space are described as a fabric. That I KNOW GPS systems have to take the effect on time into account to be accurate proves that, to me at least, that its a real effect.

I feel that (Not know) if I combine the above, I get perhaps photons / energy/matter popping into existence if it were possible to have empty space.

IE: An infinite amount of time and space produces energy, and that matter is simply an interchangeable form of "slow" energy.


(I examined the potential for some supernatural being to have made the above happen, and, it seems rather ungainly as a belief system. IE: To explain the infiniteness of the universe I need to ADD an infinite being to it? The infinite being created time? When? If the infinite being did NOT create time, then, there was a time with no infinite being....so, does that mean infinite beings also pop into existence? If so, then perhaps all the different gods could be explained at least? Of course, if you believe gods can be be "created", then, you would be likely to believe that ANOTHER god had to have created them, "They can't just HAPPEN!", and so forth. Add to that that some gods are described as requiring your belief in them to avoid them hurting you after you die. I remember in Peter Pan, if people stopped believing in Tinkerbell, she would die. Is that what makes gods exist? A belief in them? Why would an infinitely powerful cosmic being want to hurt one species if they didn't think it existed? That seems pretty insecure, to me at least. So, adding infinite beings to explain infinite concepts is just silly, to me. )




Once there is "stuff", it would tend to interact with other stuff....it seems to be what it does.

So, if we have evidence that the STUFF in our universe is expanding outwards...I would think, as there was an INFINITE amount of time involved, that this has happened an infinite number of times.

As we have an INFINITE amount of space, it would also not surprise me to find that there are an infinite number of "big bangs" happening at this moment as well.

It seems likely, to me at least, that the expanding stuff will eventually reach other stuff, and be pulled towards it, and/or, run out of momentum, and, slow down, and then reverse and all come back to some central point at some gradually increasing speed. Eventually, all the stuff in the same pull range would collide and be in one location again, even if that is more of an "eddy" than a crash, etc.

Just because we can't DETECT things too far away for their signals to reach us, doesn't mean that there are even more distant "things" out there. Some of them might be expanding TOWARDS us, some away, and some at some other angle, etc.

Thinking WE have the only big bang is a bit like assuming the solar system revolved around the earth...because that's what it seemed to look like at first.

So, that's what I personally believe, and, I reserve the right to adjust, change or modify that as new evidence becomes available. I have not felt a need to meet with other people on Sundays for example, to discuss this and feel like a team, or, to force others to accept my beliefs. I don't even know if I'm right or not, its just how I personally interpreted what I see around me.


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Old 12-02-2014, 11:23 PM #3655
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Some things we just may not understand. We will only know when we die.
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:27 PM #3656
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Cheers mate thanks.

In reply to your above response. Ill give it one last try and then I won't keep bothering to explain the same thing over and over.
The default position is neutral because there is not any evidence of a god nor any proof there isn't a god therefor it must be a neutral default position. An even more basic principle to remember here is that the burden of proof always lies with the person who is making a claim, not the person who is hearing the claim and who may not initially believe it.

This isn't my opinion this is how science, the legal system and deductive arguments work. Let me ask you something. If I claim to know Bigfoot is real and alive or that he is most likely to be but can not demonstrate or provide empirical data or evidence for my claim, Is it up to YOU to prove Bigfoot isn't real or me to prove that Bigfoot does exist?

I will explain one last time it in a way that unless you are intellectually dishonest you will have to agree that atheism is NOT a belief or belief system let alone an intrinsic one.
Premise -either a god exists or it does not? It has to be one of those. So here is the example.

There is a clear glass jar filled with bright colored gumballs. The number of gumballs is unknown but we know the number can only be either odd or even. My wife comes in the room and looks at the jar and says...

Claire- I believe the number of gumballs is an even number. What do you think?
Me- I don't know Claire. I have no idea if its even or odd. Do you have some reason to believe its even?
Claire- No not really, I just kinda know. I can feel it. I strongly believe the number is even, or at least the number is most likely even. So do you agree and accept my belief is justified or true?
Me- No of coarse not. I don't think there is anyway you can know that. I'm sorry I don't agree. I don't believe that the number of gumballs is even.
Claire- Oh, okay. So you believe the number of gumballs is odd?
Me- Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that. I have no idea if the number is Odd or not. The number may be odd or it may be even but I'm not claiming its either.
Claire- But you just said you don't believe the number of gumballs is even. So you must believe the number is odd. It has to be one or the other.
Me- I agree in the jar the gumballs has to be one or the other but since the number may be even or the number may be odd but we don't have enough information at this time to justify believing either of those specific claim to be true so I do not believe either. I do not agree with your assertion. I disagree with your belief that the number is even but that doesn't automaticly mean I believe the opposite. I don't hold any beliefs at this time whether the number of gumballs is odd or even. The most you could say is I do NOT believe you, or that I DIS-believe the number is even but because I reject YOUR belief does not mean I believe the opposite.
The end.

If anyone doesn't now understand and accept why atheism isn't a belief then nothing will convince you because you are being intellectually dishonest and just proved yourself to be so.
This has nothing to do with atheism being true or not it simply understanding what an atheist position actually is.
God either exists or it doesn't/the gumballs are either even or odd.
Theist believe a god exists/Claire thinks the number of gumballs was even.
Atheist do not believe there is a god/I did not believe the number of gumballs is even.
Because I do not believe there is a god does not mean I am making a claim that no gods exist/my disbelief that the gumballs are even does not mean I am asserting the gumballs are odd.

The absence of belief which is disbelief is NOT A BELIEF by the very definition of the word!
Good reply. However, as you trust in a neutral ground, one in which we may discuss truth and seek objectivity, is this not a belief also? That there is a state that we can try to be objective? You believe that there must be, by faith, a ground that we may try to strain for the truth. I am NOT denying that there is a ground. The truth is, we must have to have faith in many things. There would be no neutral ground. Great job though!

Quote:
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I believe in something higher!
Ah...What? It does matter!

Quote:
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Lol, maybe I should cut some slack too.
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Originally Posted by USAbro View Post
No it doesn't, in fact, spending time with him/her, may give me a chance to share my beliefs, which may, in turn cause them to stop their way of living.

What I believe (I'm not forcing my opinions on you) is that if that person repents of their sins, and places their faith in the God I believe in, for the forgiveness of their sins, the God I believe in will forget about the sins committed and give eternal life instead of torment.

Did I explain this for you to understand? I may not have been clear, so ask away!
Amen bro from the USA!
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Old 12-02-2014, 11:43 PM #3657
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Lol, soon my friend, soon...

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Old 12-03-2014, 12:22 AM #3658
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Some things we just may not understand. We will only know when we die.
I think when we die, we don't know things, because our brains won't work when we're dead.

So, if god doesn't care if you're a good person or not, only that you ALSO believe in him, and his son dying for us, too, some people I know say, hey, there's no penalty for believing and then finding out you're wrong...but if you believe and its true, you're saved, so you should believe.

Other people say that you should believe something else besides in god having a son who died for us, say in Allah...or a river, or a rock.

So, based upon that line of reasoning, we should believe all potential deity scenarios, as there's no harm in being wrong, but if you're right, you're saved.

The issue I have, is where all these stories came from. For example, there is historical evidence that Jesus did actually exist. There is NO evidence that the BIBLE existed until hundreds of years later, and, there are many translations of it.

The catholic church is the SOLE possessor of ALL of this, and, what they SAY the disciples said or did was not recorded at the time of the events.

So, we have a historical Jesus, and, we have the biblical Jesus. There is an overlap in the stories and events, but, there are also significant departures. For example, some towns in the bible did not exist until hundreds of years after Jesus lived. The translation errors turned some descriptions into guesses as to the locations, which later proved to be wrong/impossible.

Where the church had the oldest records, its even more different, as there was editing, significant editing, done on "the bible". Not typo correction, whole stories taken out, and put in, etc.

The church did not know what to say about no popes for hundreds of years after Jesus, so they guessed as to who Jesus knew/who was alive back then, and just listed them as "popes", so as to have an unbroken string of them.

Later, its realized that the order had some people who died earlier than their listed time of being pope allowed...so, it was again edited, and so forth.

So, this is the same party that is telling you "what the word of god was", and you'd think if the catholic church is telling you what the word of god was, first hand, as your ONLY SOURCE of that information....you'd be catholic?

Or Jewish, like Jesus?

I mean, if you believe that the bible is the word of god...who is verifying that for you? I mean, there's NO ORIGINAL BIBLE...there are transcripts of DRAFTS, there are versions (King James, etc...), can ALL of these be the word of god?

Some of the things cited as god's words, were actually what disciples, hundreds of years later, were described as saying. Some people pick and chose what they feel is important.

For example, they ask gay people to simply "have a different lifestyle" because it says not to lay with another man....

...but don't seem to take their position home with them, and obey the "Not spilling thy seed upon the ground" thing.

Neither citation is weighted differently...its not like some of it says obey this one really hard, no exceptions, but this one, well, boys will be boys, don't worry about it.

So, if those who think gays should abstain would have abstained from masturbation to avoid being hypocritical it would make more sense.

Throughout history...what we know is attributed to science, and, what we don't to god.

As we learn thunder is not from god, its sound waves created when hot expanding air breaks the sound barrier, we drop it from god and give it to science.

So, the idea of attributing what we don't understand to gods is pretty normal historically.

I don't tell the kids there's no santa or easter bunny or god. They feel safer if they believe in a higher power watching over them...its what religion has always done best. Security is an important thing to have. The unknown is scary.

Some people need a lucky rabbits foot, some don't.

Prayer is comforting to people. I personally feel that the tendency to "hope something happens" doesn't change whether it does, but is IS comforting to think that saying it MIGHT help.

A missionary was describing a situation where there were two natives in peril -

One native was capsized in a raging river and barely hanging on to a submerged branch to keep from being swept off and drowning, and saw rain clouds in the distance, and knew if it rained, the added water would drown him, so he prayed that it would not rain.

The other native saw a fire start on his only crop, and knew if it burned, his family would starve to death, saw the same rain clouds, so he prayed it would rain.

Both men are praying for good causes. One for it to rain, one for it not to. Same village, which prayer is answered?

Does god need to decide, or, is it simply going to rain, or, not, no matter what is prayed for by whom?

I'm pretty sure that if I were all knowing, all seeing, and knew my plan for every single person on the planet, I would not "change my mind", as that would imply having made a mistake...and I'm not supposed to be able to make mistakes.

Or maybe I am? The bible at least describes god as essentially "feeling bad and promising not to do it again", which implies a lack of perfection. He's also described as a jealous god, so, maybe all knowing, all seeing, with a plan for every person that might not be a good plan.

I mean, the popes, issued from the same organization that gives you god's word, were also supposed to be infallible...but, were proven to be fallible over and over again throughout history.

What ELSE were they wrong about?


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Old 12-03-2014, 12:30 AM #3659
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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edit: I should also say that Gods grace to save is a free gift
not really. the correct term is coercion

if we could just chose not to spend eternity with god, and just be dead, it would be a free gift that we may choose not to take. but he has a place of ETERNAL torment for the finite crime of not being convinced he is real. essentially it's a threat, aka coercion. believe... OR ELSE!!!

many people, myself included, do not respond well to coercion, and do not view those entities, divine or otherwise, who utilize this tactic, with any degree of respect or admiration
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Old 12-03-2014, 12:38 AM #3660
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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as you trust in a neutral ground, one in which we may discuss truth and seek objectivity, is this not a belief also? That there is a state that we can try to be objective? You believe that there must be, by faith, a ground that we may try to strain for the truth. I am NOT denying that there is a ground. The truth is, we must have to have faith in many things. There would be no neutral ground.
Your'e speaking a bit too poetically for me to understand you clearly. Poetic use of words is a nice touch and has its places but in a discussion were definitions are imperative to stay on point and not end up with everyone talking and defending different things its more helpful to speak literally. So I can't really respond to your first part because I am unclear what you mean. In what way do I " trust in neutral ground" What do you mean by trust in that context?

I think we first need to agree on some definitions like belief. Its been getting tossed around here way to loosely myself included for the sake of ease but it would be better if we agreed upon some definitions. What do you consider belief and what do you consider knowledge to be?

I think you are dancing close to committing an equivocation fallacy here with your bit about faith and how we all have it in different things. You could be sneaking in a different meaning of the word faith in order to try to build your argument. A person uses an appeal to faith to justify their belief when they don't have any tangible evidence beyond the subjective experience. In the context of discussing the god assertion faith is defined as belief without evidence because if you had evidence you wouldn't need faith. We are working with the English language so it can get tricky. But even if I may use the word in everyday life to say, encourage a friend to "have faith" or in other words to stay hopeful about getting that job promotion. That is in no way the same kind of thing that a Christian means when they refer to their faith in the holy spirit.

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Old 12-03-2014, 01:00 AM #3661
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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not really. the correct term is coercion

if we could just chose not to spend eternity with god, and just be dead, it would be a free gift that we may choose not to take. but he has a place of ETERNAL torment for the finite crime of not being convinced he is real. essentially it's a threat, aka coercion. believe... OR ELSE!!!

many people, myself included, do not respond well to coercion, and do not view those entities, divine or otherwise, who utilize this tactic, with any degree of respect or admiration
You could call it coercion. But what I believe is that God is holy (is perfect and has never sinned) and just, and that he must punish sin. That's already there. If he didn't punish sin, he wouldn't be holy.
Am I making sense?
So if Gods son Jesus (just as much God, as God the Father and the Spirit) who was perfect, decided, he loved us so much, out of his kindness he died for us. Now if we put our trust in Jesus, God the Father sees Jesus being perfect when he looks at us, so that makes us right with God.

These are all my beliefs and are not being pushed on anyone else!
I have a lot of questions too.
Think of it this way.
You commit a crime to a king. For example, you lie to the king. The sentence is death. You are friends with the kings son. The kings son owns lots of money and jewels. The kings son goes to his father and says, "I'll give you all my money and jewels if you forget what my friend did!" The father says, "Okay!" And from then on, whenever the kings sees the liar he instead thinks of the money and jewels and stops thinking about the crime.

Think about it.
I don't mean to push this belief on anyone, I am just sharing what I believe! This is strictly an explanation of what I believe, please do not call me a fool or stupid or neg rep me!

But whoever says, "You fool!" shall be in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:21-22)
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Old 12-03-2014, 01:05 AM #3662
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 12-03-2014, 01:29 AM #3663
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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"Reason and stuff"


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Old 12-03-2014, 01:32 AM #3664
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Looks like very good points. Looks can be deceiving.
I must say although very convincing, I am still convinced otherwise.
First I have been convinced of intelligent design, and then I have been convinced of the God of the bible.
@Shakenawake-You have made very good points, but have you ever watched "Privileged Planet" by Illustra Media? About | Intelligent Design Movies ? Illustra Media

I like to hear what everyone says, Shakenawake, I'd like to know your take on this topic? Do you believe in a God.
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