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Old 11-29-2014, 04:49 AM #3633
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
...if people could just keep their beliefs to themselves, not try and force it or what they think are "proper" life choices onto anyone else.
Many people believe homoѕexuality is just as immoral as rape and murder. I would imagine they find it just difficult to be silent on homoѕexuality as we find it difficult to be silent on rape and murder.


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Old 11-29-2014, 09:16 AM #3634
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by NRGLite View Post
Well said. However, you noted that creationism is being forced into schools where it is not supposed to be. In truth, if you mean that any belief system should not be forced into an objective environment, then atheism should really be banned from schools as it is an intrinsic belief.

Whatever. Well said.
Cheers mate thanks.

In reply to your above response. Ill give it one last try and then I won't keep bothering to explain the same thing over and over.
The default position is neutral because there is not any evidence of a god nor any proof there isn't a god therefor it must be a neutral default position. An even more basic principle to remember here is that the burden of proof always lies with the person who is making a claim, not the person who is hearing the claim and who may not initially believe it.

This isn't my opinion this is how science, the legal system and deductive arguments work. Let me ask you something. If I claim to know Bigfoot is real and alive or that he is most likely to be but can not demonstrate or provide empirical data or evidence for my claim, Is it up to YOU to prove Bigfoot isn't real or me to prove that Bigfoot does exist?

I will explain one last time it in a way that unless you are intellectually dishonest you will have to agree that atheism is NOT a belief or belief system let alone an intrinsic one.
Premise -either a god exists or it does not? It has to be one of those. So here is the example.

There is a clear glass jar filled with bright colored gumballs. The number of gumballs is unknown but we know the number can only be either odd or even. My wife comes in the room and looks at the jar and says...

Claire- I believe the number of gumballs is an even number. What do you think?
Me- I don't know Claire. I have no idea if its even or odd. Do you have some reason to believe its even?
Claire- No not really, I just kinda know. I can feel it. I strongly believe the number is even, or at least the number is most likely even. So do you agree and accept my belief is justified or true?
Me- No of coarse not. I don't think there is anyway you can know that. I'm sorry I don't agree. I don't believe that the number of gumballs is even.
Claire- Oh, okay. So you believe the number of gumballs is odd?
Me- Whoa whoa whoa. I never said that. I have no idea if the number is Odd or not. The number may be odd or it may be even but I'm not claiming its either.
Claire- But you just said you don't believe the number of gumballs is even. So you must believe the number is odd. It has to be one or the other.
Me- I agree in the jar the gumballs has to be one or the other but since the number may be even or the number may be odd but we don't have enough information at this time to justify believing either of those specific claim to be true so I do not believe either. I do not agree with your assertion. I disagree with your belief that the number is even but that doesn't automaticly mean I believe the opposite. I don't hold any beliefs at this time whether the number of gumballs is odd or even. The most you could say is I do NOT believe you, or that I DIS-believe the number is even but because I reject YOUR belief does not mean I believe the opposite.
The end.

If anyone doesn't now understand and accept why atheism isn't a belief then nothing will convince you because you are being intellectually dishonest and just proved yourself to be so.
This has nothing to do with atheism being true or not it simply understanding what an atheist position actually is.
God either exists or it doesn't/the gumballs are either even or odd.
Theist believe a god exists/Claire thinks the number of gumballs was even.
Atheist do not believe there is a god/I did not believe the number of gumballs is even.
Because I do not believe there is a god does not mean I am making a claim that no gods exist/my disbelief that the gumballs are even does not mean I am asserting the gumballs are odd.

The absence of belief which is disbelief is NOT A BELIEF by the very definition of the word!

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Old 11-29-2014, 05:53 PM #3635
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I BELIEVE that 1+1=2

I BELIEVE that hydrogen atoms have one electron and one proton

I BELIEVE that things which are evidently true, and many things not evidently true but provable, don't reqire BELIEF. using the term to describe the fact you agree with them is meaningless.

though I often hear religious folks claim that facts and truth are seperate ideas, and even that a "fact" may not be "true". they say science is wishy washy, always changing it's "facts". I guess when you have been magically imbued with the truth, it becomes obvious that science is false, despite all the working technology derived from it. it's not good enough for them to hear that our knowledge is growing along with our understanding, and that this occasionally requires tweaking or discarding current theories. you know, models that explain stuff based on data points, aka facts. if science gets something wrong even once and has to change it's position, you must be better off believing a thousands year old "scripture", which is surely not subject to being wrong about anything. it's definately not intellectually honest to admit when you are wrong, as science does. it's certainly preferable to have someone assert to you that they have the truth, as long as their story never changes, you can know they are trust worthy. it's not like religious adherents have any disagreements about the particular "truths" of the bible, that's why it's one, unified church, not thousands of denominations. oh, wait:

List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

we all know, as conservapedia tells us, "Biblical scientific foreknowledge has anticipated or guided nearly every great human achievement."

Bible - Conservapedia

really? name one technology that belief in god, and more importantly, denial of satan's science, has given humanity?

this site is a crackup, until you remember that lots of people actually believe this stuff.

it's got little gems like the one above as well as these:

1. All verifiable evidence indicates that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.

2. Creation science asserts that the biblical account, that dinosaurs were created on day six of creation approximately 6,000 years ago, along with other land animals, and therefore co-existed with humans, thus debunking the Theory of Evolution and the beliefs of evolutionary scientists about the age and creation of the earth.

3. Although some feel that their faith needs no justification, many feel that Christians should be prepared to defend and spread their faith by intellectual means, especially as many people will not accept Christianity without a "rational" reason to do so.

4. Christian beliefs are well supported via a large body of compelling evidence.

5. The United States of America is the most prosperous, conservative and Christian large nation in the world, based on the longest-running Constitution in history

6. America derives many of its policies from the Bible, and the logic behind the Bible.

7. Not possessing a religious basis for morality, which can provide a legitimate basis for objective morality, atheists are fundamentally incapable of having a coherent system of morality.

and one of my favorites:

8. Biblical scientific foreknowledge is the fact that the Bible shows a comprehension of science far ahead of its time. Biblical scientific foreknowledge illustrates what is possible by educating us about truth in the Universe. However, Bible deniers, such as atheists and evolutionists, liberally deny the many truths in the Bible. Their irrational closed-mindedness against the Bible obstructs the advancement of science.

you get the idea

I leave you with videos I did not make but find funny as hell:



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Old 11-29-2014, 06:10 PM #3636
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Many people believe homo***uality is just as immoral as rape and murder. I would imagine they find it just difficult to be silent on homo***uality as we find it difficult to be silent on rape and murder.
Except rape and murder harm and affect other people. homo***uality is a personal matter and doesn't affect anyone except the people in the relationship.
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Old 11-29-2014, 06:54 PM #3637
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Many people believe homo***uality is just as immoral as rape and murder. I would imagine they find it just difficult to be silent on homo***uality as we find it difficult to be silent on rape and murder.
There is so many things wrong with this comparison I will just point out the most obvious flaw. That there is no accurate comparison for one. The main difference between hom***uality vs. rape and murder is one is demonstrably shown to be bad for society, bad for human rights, bad for people or as you put it "immoral. It goes beyond just a persons subjective morality or opinion. We can conclude that rape and murder are objectively bad for society aka immoral. This is not at all the case with homo***uality.It is apples and oranges. We find it difficult to be silent on rape and murder because if we remained silent we would be immoral ourselves.

Here is my counter example to show what I mean.
Interracial relationships is just as bad as forcing children to drink battery acid. One is a biggoted short sighted opinion the other can be shown to be actually harmful.
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Old 11-29-2014, 06:57 PM #3638
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Cyp isnt stating the position as his own.

He's right though, despite your logic about demonstrable wrong, there are those who think it is, another conservapedia link:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:...mo***uality%3F

LOL you must replace the three asterisks with the naughty word for it to work
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Old 11-29-2014, 07:12 PM #3639
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Shakenawake View Post
Cyp isnt stating the position as his own.

He's right though, despite your logic about demonstrable wrong, there are those who think it is, another conservapedia link:

http://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:...mo***uality%3F

LOL you must replace the three asterisks with the naughty word for it to work
Cool thanks, I understand that isn't Cyp's position as I'm pretty sure he is too intelligent to think that garbage. I was refuting the comparison regardless of who agrees with it or not. Sadly I understand that many bigoted people believe what Conservapedia is saying but my point is it doesn't make it a good comparison. That was the point of my counter example. I think we are saying the same thing.
All too often many people and even many good people fall for the BS by conceding that peoples opinions and personal feeling or unjustified beliefs are as valid as demonstrable conclusive facts just because there are a lot of the nutballs. Its not I guess that's my point..

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Old 11-29-2014, 08:43 PM #3640
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I believe in something higher!
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Old 12-02-2014, 05:03 AM #3641
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
There is so many things wrong with this comparison...
You're missing the point entirely. Do you know what an analogy is? In an analogy, you look for the similarities, NOT the differences.

If I were to say "his stoicism is like a rock," would you go on a rant about how a man's personal demeanor is unrelated to geologic formations?


Non-analogy version: It is difficult to keep quiet about something you believe is hurting people.

Quote:
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homo***uality is a personal matter and doesn't affect anyone except the people in the relationship.
That's your belief (and mine, for the record). But you just said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarg King View Post
...if people could just keep their beliefs to themselves...
Since not everyone believes as you do regarding homoѕexuality, should you keep your belief to yourself?
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Old 12-02-2014, 08:58 AM #3642
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You're missing the point entirely. Do you know what an analogy is? In an analogy, you look for the similarities, NOT the differences.

Non-analogy version: It is difficult to keep quiet about something you believe is hurting people.

That's your belief (and mine, for the record). But you just said:

Since not everyone believes as you do regarding homoѕexuality, should you keep your belief to yourself?
I know what an analogy is. In your analogy there contains a comparison? It is that comparison I was referring to. In this statement of yours "I would imagine they find it just difficult to be silent on homoѕ***uality as we find it difficult to be silent on rape and murder" is that not a comparison right there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Non-analogy version: It is difficult to keep quiet about something you believe is hurting people.
Yes but I don't see why people should care if its difficult for a bigot to keep their ignorant beliefs to themselves. They should feel pressure by civilized society to just do it. At the very least their ideas shouldn't be encouraged or validated with people thinking everyone's opinion should be heard or no ones should be. That's my point. I disagree with your comparison because although someone may feel being gay is as bad as what you or I would feel about rape doesn't mean it is nor does it correspond with what we see and know about societies and individual welfare so who cares if its equally hard for them to keep quite about?

Quote:
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Since not everyone believes as you do regarding homoѕexuality, should you keep your belief to yourself?
No BlardKing should not have to keep his belief on homo***uality to himself because his understanding of homo***uality isn't based solely on opinion, prejudices, or some magic holy book. I'm assuming It's based on real world observations and the acceptance of people differences. And just so I don't misunderstand you or assume, I interpreted this last statement of yours to suggest or play devils advocate by proposing that since everyone holds a belief about homo***uality that everyone's opinion on the matter should be either heard equally or not at all. And/or a person that holds an opposing belief shouldn't expect their rival to keep their beliefs to themselves even when their rivals opinion is demonstrably harmful and driven by ignorance religiosity and is the driving force behind much violence, bigotry and human rights violations.

Please correct me if I am wrong but that's the point your question appears to be getting at.

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Old 12-02-2014, 10:42 AM #3643
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by VillageIdiot View Post
There are only 8 choices in the poll, so I had to group a few together. Sorry to the different Christians and the different varieties of non-religion.

Dudes, the last thing I want this to turn into is a big flame war or an argument. I'd just like to know what the different members of LPF believe in.

Feel free to include more information or a backstory.

NUMBER ONE RULE: DO NOT challenge other members' beliefs in this thread. You are free to comment, but you know when it's stepping out of line.

Happy voting.
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Old 12-02-2014, 10:50 AM #3644
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 12-02-2014, 03:18 PM #3645
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
although someone may feel being gay is as bad as what you or I would feel about rape doesn't mean it is nor does it correspond with what we see and know about societies and individual welfare
You're still missing the point. THEY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT.

You're saying the concepts are different. I agree they are. My original statement was that not everyone does.

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Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
No BlardKing should not have to keep his belief on homo***uality to himself
Why? Because he believes his beliefs are superior? Does that make him a bigot? Let's go back to this point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwfreefly View Post
...its difficult for a bigot to keep their ignorant beliefs to themselves...
They feel the same way about you.



Seems to me what is really being said here is: Keep your beliefs to yourself unless you agree with me. We could try to hash out exactly what it means to be "driven by ignorance religiosity", but that's subjective. Perhaps the problem is with "ignorant religiosity" itself rather than keeping your beliefs to yourself, eh?
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Old 12-02-2014, 03:31 PM #3646
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

This thread was designed to talk about what different people believe, not to condemn them for it!
I believe homo***uality is wrong, but that doesn't mean I can't like people who are that way! I can still treat the with respect and love them, and they can still be friends, I just believe partaking in that is wrong.

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Old 12-02-2014, 03:36 PM #3647
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Old 12-02-2014, 07:17 PM #3648
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Why? Because he believes his beliefs are superior? Does that make him a bigot? Let's go back to this point:

They feel the same way about you.
Seems to me what is really being said here is: Keep your beliefs to yourself unless you agree with me.
I would love to go back to that point because you are missing it completely. It has nothing to do with MY beliefs or His beliefs it has to do with what we know and can deduce about the greater good and and peoples equal rights within societies. It doesn't matter what I THINK it only matters what can be shown to be true or proved, not opinion.
You are once again equating everyone's personal opinions as being the same value or worth because they may believe them to be so and my whole point is is that they are NOT and it can be shown beyond personal opinion of belief. If you can't show it...then you don't know it. Just as an example, we know the best way to set up a society is for the modeler to set it up as if he does not know whom he will be in that society or what roll. The modeler having the same odds to become king as he would a homeless person. This is the backbone of democracy.

From that frame work we can start at the bottom of what is KNOWN and can be demonstrated to be for the greater good and work up from there. ie. Death is better than life, health is better than sickness, freedoms is better than oppression and so on. We don't go around asking everyone their 2 cents and govern by consensus. You are speaking as if its impossible to know what is for the greater good therefore everyone's opinion is the same value or rights. This is simply not true. We can know, and on many things we DO know what holds a society back and what nourishes flourishing.

The Taliban thought it was good and just to regularly hang women and young girls trying to learn how to read from the goal posts in school yards. They believed the act of a woman learning to read was deserving of death. Can we at least agree that the world and many innocent women and children would have been better off had they just kept this belief to themselves? Would I be acting as if my opinion is superior? Would their misguided opinions even need to be heard or considered in a society that is optimum for the greater good of all?
In a nut shell Do their opinions and beliefs have the same merit and validity as the belief that women should be treated as equals just because they THINK or FEEL it does and are as passionate as the opposing view?

How about white supremacist groups. If I think their ideas and beliefs are hate filled bullshit am I thinking mine are superior because I agree with the understanding that all people are and should be treated as equals? Is it just my beliefs vs. theirs or are they demonstrable standards of a society vs. harmful ignorance in which much suffering is caused?

I would be more productive for you to stop seeing things as I think MY opinions are superior because it has nothing to do with what I think. These aren't just my standards and the world should bow to them or get outta my way. These freedoms and basic human rights are things I AGREE with not just my personal opinions that are superior. I agree with them because it can be demonstrated that oppression and inequality is KNOWN not to be best for people and societies ans societies flourish when human rights are defended.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Perhaps the problem is with "ignorant religiosity" itself rather than keeping your beliefs to yourself, eh?
Yes finally something we can agree on, lol! But....that's a much bigger conversation that I am guessing neither wants to open that can of worms.
Cheers
Mate.

Last edited by olympus mons; 12-02-2014 at 09:11 PM.
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