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Old 08-13-2013, 05:10 AM #3057
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Religion breeds ignorance. Ignorance breeds religion it seems...



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Old 08-13-2013, 05:18 AM #3058
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Wow! He was praying to Obama it seemed

I think parenting played a big part in that little video gem

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Old 08-13-2013, 05:37 AM #3059
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Yup, that's the scary part... he was not praying to god, but to Obama.

Of course the parents are responsible, but I can't help feeling that public education is also failing the kid badly.

It's just scary considering how well things have gone in the past, with leaders who were/are regarded as divine.
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Old 08-13-2013, 05:43 AM #3060
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ daguin

Einstein has said it better than I can.

"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects."

We are limited, what we know is far far from everything that is

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

An atheist society is what we are creating. Also humanity killed god's one and only son, I wouldn't expect things to be the same as they were before the crucifiction.
So then, why pray?
Why "thank god" for anything that happens on earth?
Why blame anything on "god's will" or "plan"

You say that you expect things to be different after the crucifixion like god had reason to be upset
The crucifixion is exactly why jesus came to earth, isn't it?
God sent his only begotten son to serve as the sacrifice for human kind
God sent him here to die
Everything happened exactly as he planned, didn't it?
Why would an active and present god, "disappear" after his plan to save humanity came to pass?

Also, you need to research about Einstein a bit more.
He believed in a "god" (not any particular religion's god) that started everything and wrote the rules
He was referring to the laws of physics when he spoke of the "someone" and the "plan" that we could "sense" but not understand (yet)

He did NOT believe that there was a god that got involved in human activities or required homage

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Old 08-13-2013, 05:45 AM #3061
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Yup, that's the scary part... he was not praying to god, but to Obama.

Of course the parents are responsible, but I can't help feeling that public education is also failing the kid badly.

It's just scary considering how well things have gone in the past, with leaders who were/are regarded as divine.
I think it was extremely hard for the Japanese to accept that their divine Dragon Emperor had failed them.

More money for schools? Social programs to change the root of the problem?

Should a Society take it upon itself to uplift the disadvantaged?

It is interesting to note that Communist Countries are becoming more Democratic and Capitalistic while Democratic Countries are becoming more Socialized

_______________________________________

Edit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daguin
You say that you expect things to be different after the crucifixion like god had reason to be upset
The crucifixion is exactly why jesus came to earth, isn't it?
God sent his only begotten son to serve as the sacrifice for human kind
God sent him here to die
Everything happened exactly as he planned, didn't it?
Why would an active and present god, "disappear" after his plan to save humanity came to pass?




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Old 08-13-2013, 05:59 AM #3062
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Duke -- Here's the above quote that you used, with the context that was omitted by whoever misrepresented (and subtly misquoted) it to you:

Einstein had previously explored the belief that man could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in 1930 in G. S. Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great, Einstein, in response to a question about whether or not he believed in God, explained:
Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.[19]




Here is very clearly what Einstein thought about "god"

On 22 March 1954 Einstein received a letter from Joseph Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant who had worked as an experimental machinist in New Jersey. Dispentiere had declared himself an atheist and was disappointed by a news report which had cast Einstein as conventionally religious. Einstein replied on 24 March 1954:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.[8]
Einstein dumped religion at age 12

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Old 08-13-2013, 06:13 AM #3063
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
- Einstein

Are either of you absolutely sure that you have a full and complete understanding of these good/bad events, and that you can use them personally as 100% proof against god's existence?

Reference to Einstein quotes on spirituality.
Albert Einstein Quotes on Spirituality
Einstein was a defeatist , he even resorted to imagining the cosmological constant just to fulfill his presumed image of how the universe works.
He's massively overrated by people in many accounts.

We recognize his contributions but we won't hail him as the most intelligent person in the world or will we take all of his statements and conjecture without experimentation and observation.

That's our difference.

Ah , the famous fallacy :Argumentum ad ignorantiam
Bertrand Russell's teapot, a hypothetical china teapot revolving about the sun between Earth and Mars. Since we can't prove there isn't a teapot between Earth and Mars , therefore there MUST BE a teapot between Earth and Mars.
Cute
By the same logic you have , if we put you in China 50 years ago and we started chanting . YOU ARE A MURDER!
You are a dead man before the trial even started.
This is the same as Presumption of Guilt. Are you for the presumption of guilt? Because behind the punishment , the logic is still the same.

As for the burden of religion that doesn't promote critical thinking, such as a religion that thinks well.... like this.


Xunzi a Chinese Confucian philosopher who lived during the Warring States period once stated that .
"All men are born evil " .
Evil.... the socially imposed moral standard. Expediency, selfishness, greed, and neglect , all of which will harm the proliferation of EVERYONE beside from the one , but will benefit the strong one who remains.
In the end , it just depend on what leads the herd to the evil deeds ,will we be brought back to our animal roots. Survival of the fittest in a material sense, or can we dampen its urges and hide it within the fabric of the society.. Or does the individuals confronts their nature and change themselves.
I wish the later would happen , but it rarely does.

And a religion that teaches ***ism , racial superiority , eugenics ,slavery and ABSOLUTE OBEDIENCE to those with power regardless of its deeds against its people.
THAT is a road that'll lead us to destruction.
In the end , how many people will listen to words that defy their own animalistic nature. To defy survival of the fittest . To benefit those with absolutely no connection to oneself . How many out of the 7 billion on Earth will do that?

And can Abrahamic religion do that ?
Perhaps , its modernising , its ditching its old ways.
For one , the Old Testaments are being forgotten , thats good .

We aren't against Christianity , we are against PARTS of it .
We are against INDOCTRINATION, we are against TYRANNY , we are against someone pretending to know EVERYTHING just because he says so.

We are for FREEDOM , LIBERTY and DEMOCRACY.
POWER TO the PEOPLE!
TO YOU , TO HIM , TO HER!
TO EVERYONE and EVERY sentient being on the world .
Regardless of race , age, ability and opinion.

Because we know our darkest self.
WE KNOW the monster that is inside us.
And the last thing we want to do , is for it to dominate us again like it dominates those in power now.


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Old 08-13-2013, 06:25 AM #3064
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
I think it was extremely hard for the Japanese to accept that their divine Dragon Emperor had failed them.

More money for schools? Social programs to change the root of the problem?

Should a Society take it upon itself to uplift the disadvantaged?

It is interesting to note that Communist Countries are becoming more Democratic and Capitalistic while Democratic Countries are becoming more Socialized
Yes, I do believe education is the key. Kids should be encouraged to pursue an education in those fields in which they excel, but only after a strong core curriculum is attained.

I don't believe more funding is the answer though. I mean in some schools yes, of course, but in general the throw money at the problem approach fails.

Want to see improvement in education?

How about instead of relentlessly testing kids, (and as a result teaching them only how to pass tests) we test the teachers and administrators?

Have more accountability for those that run the schools.

The "how" is so simple. Tie in the performances of the school, and the performances of the kids, to the teacher, and administrator salaries. Your class fails. You're fired. Your class gets all A's... you get a bonus.

Your school's performance as a whole drops? Bye bye career bureaucrat.

From a curriculum perspective drop the useless crap classes... I mean did anyone actually learn anything in home economics except that you need to aerate flour?

Or benefit from years of english classes?

How many kids forget 95% of what they learn from higher level math classes, a year out of high school? If presented with calc, or trig, I'd have to basically relearn it.

Teach kids a core curriculum of required subjects with a broad focus. Test them. Place them into classes that focus on their strengths. Some will excel in mathematics. Others will inexplicably remembers every country in europe, and africa, and the history of events there.

I really can't see any reason why kids cannot be taught the most basic skills required to be functional in society by the time they are done with 7th, or 8th grade.

Allow kids to experiment with what classes they want to take in 9 and 10. Complete freedom to choose any subject field. Allow them to flourish or fail for a couple of years, but to explore any subject matter. Grades 11 and 12, focus on strengthening the core primary skills, in general, or as they relate to the fields in which the child excels.

The benefit of this would be profound. Kids would no longer end up going to college, only to find that what they wanted to do, is completely not to their liking. They would be less likely to crack under pressure from failure in subject they hate, having already either experienced failure in a more supportive environment in high school, or having excelled there, and being ready for more of the same.

You will also have many kids who will choose not to go into college in the first place. Kids won't be traumatized. Parents won't be bankrupt from trying to pay their kids way through experimentation.

Fact of the matter is, I think for the most part education in the US is getting completely screwed up.

I've gone a bit off topic, but coming back around to the original question you asked... more accountability for schools, not more money.

Work with the programs already created (there are literally hundreds if not thousands).

Yes, I believe society as a whole has a moral obligation to help those who cannot help themselves, but at the same time I do not believe society owes a damn thing to those who would choose not to help themselves.

As for capitalist nations becoming more like dictatorships, and the reverse happening... it's sad to see.

Last edited by InfinitusEquitas; 08-13-2013 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 06:55 AM #3065
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I really love the idea Infinitus. That kind of educational system would have a profound effect. It is Utopian I think though. What about those from disadvantaged homes with no desire to learn, coming from homes where there is absolutely no support for that.

How do you fix society? Do we enter a time of the "Institutional" Family, Daycare, School, Military/Public Servant? Citizen, child of the "State"

I'm just making a point, I'm not actually taking any kind of position

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:19 AM #3066
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ IE -- How will you determine if a class has done poorly or not?

Is it just grades?
If so, and the teacher's (or administrator's) salary and/or job is a stake, guess what grades the kids will get

Otherwise, you are back to testing
In order to have a "bright line" at which the teacher will be sanctioned, you will have to have "standards" in the "core" again

We will have come full circle

Peace,
dave
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:36 AM #3067
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
I really love the idea Infinitus. That kind of educational system would have a profound effect. It is Utopian I think though. What about those from disadvantaged homes with no desire to learn, coming from homes where there is absolutely no support for that.

How do you fix society? Do we enter a time of the "Institutional" Family, Daycare, School, Military/Public Servant? Citizen, child of the "State"

I'm just making a point, I'm not actually taking any kind of position

~ LB
That's a very good point.

How do you address the fact that after school kids can end up in entirely different environments, with one kid going to a household of doctors and lawyers, and another headed to a home with a widower handyman who never finished high school?

To me, it would seem the answer is self explanatory. In terms of life for the kids, separate school and home entirely.

1. No homework. Not unless the student does reading on their own.
2. Eliminate, or at least reduce the obvious, and blatant differences in household income between students;
-Uniforms.
-All school supplies.
-All programs are made available to any child, based on solely on the child's ability. For example, a boy that wants to play on the football team shouldn't have to worry about whether his parents can afford the sports equipment.

Outside of the school, I do believe a certain baseline of minimum care should exist, and if a parent is unable to keep to that baseline, help should be offered, and even forced.

I'm talking a very very minimal set of requirements. That the child goes to see a doctor once every two months, is kept up to date on immunizations, and regular medical care, and provided with proper nutrition.

Beyond that, only supervision to the same degree as expected of a parent now.

That's it. Basically I believe the state should offer a safety net to those in need, but otherwise, completely stay out of people's homes.

Now obviously all these lofty ideas aren't cheap. So here's a thought.

How about beyond taxes we have a different social contract. Whatever you career is. Whatever it is you end up doing later in life. Expect completely 100% free education, in return for 10% of your income.

Instead having the kids saddled with the middle class dilemma of not being poor enough for financial aid, but not rich enough for their parents to easily pay for college, have the money taken out of the equation for the students altogether.

Again... tie in the pay of the teacher/professors/administrator to the student performance. When teachers have a direct and immediate effect on their lives from the performance of their students... they will go out of their way to make sure the class passes.

Students in turn appreciate teachers who care. Basically create cycles that reinforce positive outcomes, and build on each other, but at the same time weed out from the system students that for whatever reason genuinely don't want to learn, and teachers who have no business teaching.

How do you know what teacher is doing a good job, and which one is doing a lousy job? Just as teachers grade students, students deserve the right to grade teachers. Beyond that some standardized testing will reveal obvious patterns as well. If a teacher has 100 students, 90%+ are doing well on tests, and 80% leave a positive review for the teacher... that's a good teacher, and chances are something else needs to be done about the students.

If conversely almost everyone hates the teacher, and barely 70% pass the test. Time to look at what the teacher is doing wrong.

Can you imagine how many more doctors, scientists, and engineers we'd have if kids didn't have to worry about how they would pay for school books.

That same money people wouldn't have to save up for their kids college funds would also mean a greater quality of life for both the parents and the kids. More money going right back into the local economy, as opposed to sitting, sometimes to decades, in a bank.

Utopian? Maybe so. Can't help it though... I'm a dreamer

P.S - End war on drugs, end ongoing offensive wars ie Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Institute a flat 20% tax, for individuals and corporations. Stop profit shifting. You'll instantly have sufficient funds to start the programs listed above, as well as begin quickly paying down the national deficit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
@ IE -- How will you determine if a class has done poorly or not?

Is it just grades?
If so, and the teacher's (or administrator's) salary and/or job is a stake, guess what grades the kids will get

Otherwise, you are back to testing
In order to have a "bright line" at which the teacher will be sanctioned, you will have to have "standards" in the "core" again

We will have come full circle

Peace,
dave
Much as I personally detest it, some standardized testing has to exist.

I think the main issue to change, would in how those test are administered.

Instead of having the teachers essentially grade themselves, in addition to a smaller standard test, have them tested by a teacher from a different class who teaches the same subject.

Also as I mentioned above... have the kids rate/review the teachers. It's been my personal experience through school, and college, that there are teachers who really care and stand out, but the majority are just there for the paycheck. Why not force the ones there just to get by, to work harder?

Academia, and government work, are kind of a paradox... mediocrity is not only tolerated, it's often rewarded with things like tenure.

Last edited by InfinitusEquitas; 08-13-2013 at 07:44 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:56 AM #3068
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazerbeak View Post
I really love the idea Infinitus. That kind of educational system would have a profound effect. It is Utopian I think though. What about those from disadvantaged homes with no desire to learn, coming from homes where there is absolutely no support for that.

How do you fix society? Do we enter a time of the "Institutional" Family, Daycare, School, Military/Public Servant? Citizen, child of the "State"

I'm just making a point, I'm not actually taking any kind of position

~ LB
Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
@ IE -- How will you determine if a class has done poorly or not?

Is it just grades?
If so, and the teacher's (or administrator's) salary and/or job is a stake, guess what grades the kids will get

Otherwise, you are back to testing
In order to have a "bright line" at which the teacher will be sanctioned, you will have to have "standards" in the "core" again

We will have come full circle

Peace,
dave
Imagine Germany today.

If its Sunday, you'll be breaking the law if you wash your car and again, by mowing the lawn and again , by hanging out the washing to dry . You are allowed to feed your cat.
But not in the garden .

Then if a sausage dog trout into the road as you are driving along .
Should you stop ?

NOOOooooo

A german court recently passed that a sausage dog is too small to warrant a stop , and you must carry on driving over the dog's dead body.

Want to golf in germany ?
Where are your identity papers?

Cos its ILLEGAL to play golf in germany without a license , and without passing a 3 hour long written close booked exam.


Fancy a bit of ... German government?



Cos they are doing most of what you are suggesting today.... and a LOT more

Last edited by EpicHam; 08-13-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 08:12 AM #3069
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Funny you should mention Germany. I remember when I was in high school, a family friend visited with his daughter, who was just a little older than me.

We were both at the time learning to drive, and got to talking about it.

As I recall, where my test consisted of a ridiculously easy to pass multiple choice questionnaire (which I passed without ANY prior knowledge or experience aside from being a passenger in cars), and a 3 minute "driving exam" her test were far, far more stringent.

Frankly, given my daily commute... I'd love for more stringent driving and written tests.

For golf... making it a requirement seems silly, but if you never played before... doesn't it make sense to take a lesson first anyway?

Edit: Interesting video... I think I'll go through them one by one

Last edited by InfinitusEquitas; 08-13-2013 at 08:16 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:07 PM #3070
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Not to break up the talk about education, I do find it interesting, but...

@ IE & daguin

You guys are really narrowing your field of view, and yes I was aware of Einstein's beliefs. The thought is, even Einstein acknowledged that human comprehension is very limited, and through his observations of nature, he believed there is evidence of a creator. This being the case, why do many atheists declare so arrogantly and rudely that there is no god, as if they truly know everything and have some sort of omniscient perspective on the world.

More specifically @ IE
Quote:
1. You're right. It's not a religiously derived argument. It's a rational, logical argument.

Or can you prove to me that 3 headed aliens aliens in cloaked ships aren't circling our planet, and watching us as part of their own version of animal planet?

Well? Can you prove it?

If not, than why is your proposition that there is a god anymore valid than my proposition about aliens?

2. What exactly is your basis for that belief?

3. So you're cannot entertain the possibility that there is no god even as part of a discussion? Or answer the same exact question that you are ready to lob away as proof of your deity's existence?
1. "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" is a simple statement of truth, you may apply it in whatever ridiculous way you wish but to deny it's true is pulling a blanket over your head.

2. I've tried to explain that in earlier posts.

3. I have seriously contemplated the possibility on my own, and have been open to discussion on it this whole time, you seem to get very defensive and rude at the idea of god existing.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:22 PM #3071
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Not to break up the talk about education, I do find it interesting, but...

@ IE & daguin

You guys are really narrowing your field of view, and yes I was aware of Einstein's beliefs. The thought is, even Einstein acknowledged that human comprehension is very limited, and through his observations of nature, he believed there is evidence of a creator. This being the case, why do many atheists declare so arrogantly and rudely that there is no god, as if they truly know everything and have some sort of omniscient perspective on the world.

More specifically @ IE


1. "Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" is a simple statement of truth, you may apply it in whatever ridiculous way you wish but to deny it's true is pulling a blanket over your head.

2. I've tried to explain that in earlier posts.

3. I have seriously contemplated the possibility on my own, and have been open to discussion on it this whole time, you seem to get very defensive and rude at the idea of god existing.
Duke, you appear to be constantly ignoring my rebuttals .
Would it be of not too much of a hassle if you could reply to them ?

We are not angry about the possibility of the deity existence.
We are angry about the acts of the deity and people asserting that it is 100% certain that a deity exist when it defies the scientific method .

Please lay out your argument.
That'll help us to effectively debate the matter.
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Old 08-13-2013, 03:48 PM #3072
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Sry Ham I don't mean to ignore you, some of your posts are a little out there and it's hard enough to stay on focus without hitting too many rabbit trails. I'll try to include you in my replies more. My current thoughts on the topic are out in post 3079.
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