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Old 08-06-2013, 10:33 AM #2961
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Once you understand the mindset of Jesus and the disciples, entirely new meanings arise from the words of the new testament.
Do share.


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Old 08-06-2013, 10:37 AM #2962
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

And so we begin the discussion of whether a harmonica is cooler than a guitar
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:24 PM #2963
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Do share.
I already gave one example

The invitation to read the new testament with the understanding of the contemporary mindset of the time is on the table
This should also be done with the old testament

In communication we understand that one cannot understand meaning without understanding the context in which the words were spoken

All of the contexts; time, place, and mindset must be understood to understand meaning

Even if you believe that Jesus was *one* "real" person, he was NOT talking to 21st century humans

He was a bronze age Middle Easterner, speaking to bronze age Middle Easterners, who believed that the end of the world, was imminent.

Believers often accuse atheists of taking verses out of context

It is today's believers that have removed the actual context of the scrolls

Without understanding the actual contexts of the words, any meaning assigned to the words is internally created

It is NOT what Jesus meant.
It is what the humans translating the words wanted it to mean

As has been shown numerous times, that "meaning" has shifted along with the wants of the people "interpreting" them

What makes these interpretations even farther from the original meaning is that today's words are actually interpretations of interpretations

It works just like the old game "telephone" (where one person whispers a statement to the next down the line).
At the end of the line, the original meaning is completely lost

Whenever a message changes form (from thought to words and back to thought and back to words through different minds) accuracy is lost at every transition.

How far from reality the words in today's religious texts must be from the original . . . . Then even those horribly inaccurate words are being individually interpreted by current and different church leaders

I would posit that you have absolutely no idea what Jesus actually meant (if "he" actually said anything)

Peace,
dave
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:28 PM #2964
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
I'm more referring to the modern day contemporary church and the apostles creed beliefs. You can make any group of people look bad by pointing out the worst part of history that they are affiliated with, when power was definitely abused.
I'm looking at the overall contribution to society, throughout the history of the group/belief system.

For all the supposed good the church has done throughout history, it cannot begin to even scratch the surface of the evils that it also perpetrated on the world.

Would you excuse the Nazis for the holocaust? After all it was a long time ago, and they did also contribute to technological, infrastructure, and medical developments.

At the present time one could even make the argument they do more good than harm. Does that absolve them of their history?

Edit: Crap... I think I just upheld an internet rule...

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:47 PM #2965
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Once you understand the mindset of Jesus and the disciples, entirely new meanings arise from the words of the new testament.
You made it sound like you understand the mindset of Jesus, but now you're saying because the scripture has been translated by scholars(unbiased people who know what they are doing as much as it is possible) nothing can be correctly understood from the bible and everything is just made up twisted interpretations.

You really seem to have it out for Christianity and a dislike for me aswell, please tell me I'm wrong.

@ IE

It's really easy to add up all the bad history, much harder to account for all the good, personally I believe it's there. Mistakes that happened before we were born shouldn't really be held against every Christian today. That's on their heads, I intend to do things differently.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:09 PM #2966
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You made it sound like you understand the mindset of Jesus, but now you're saying because the scripture has been translated by scholars(unbiased people who know what they are doing as much as it is possible) nothing can be correctly understood from the bible and everything is just made up twisted interpretations.

You really seem to have it out for Christianity and a dislike for me aswell, please tell me I'm wrong.

@ IE

It's really easy to add up all the bad history, much harder to account for all the good, personally I believe it's there.

Thats why you don't "interpret" the statements in the bible.
If you are a TRUE Christian , you'll be like the Muslims and take their book literally .
But most people don't and only believe whatever the church says and the pope presents in their favour.


And then we have the MANY , MANY wars Christians started in the false name of god out of their own greed.

Religion itself is self derogatory and defeatist.
We are all sinners , if we don't believe, we are all going to hell .
Its a tactic used by the old to deceive and control the young via fear and brainwashing.

Look at the wars for example.

• The Crusades — A series of campaigns from the 11th to the 13th centuries with the stated goal of reconquering the Holy Land from Muslim invaders and coming to the aid of the Byzantine Empire


• The French Wars of Religion


• The Thirty Years' War


• Taiping Rebellion


• Troubles in Northern Ireland

Christianity has certainly been a factor in many conflicts throughout its 2,000-year history.

In Islam, we see the concept of jihad, or “holy war.” The word jihad literally means “struggle,” but the concept has been used to describe warfare in the expansion and defense of Islamic territory. The almost continual warfare in the Middle East over the past half century certainly has contributed to the idea that religion is the cause of many wars.

The September 11 attacks on the United States has been seen as a jihad against the “Great Satan” America, which in Muslim eyes is almost synonymous with Christianity. In Judaism, the wars of conquest chronicled in the OT (in particular the book of Joshua) at the command of God, conquered the Promised Land.




The point should be obvious that organised religion has certainly played a part in much of the warfare in human history.
And more often than not , not to defeat "evil" , but to annihilate opposing ideas that threaten the longevity of their OWN beliefs.

Let it be for supremacy , resources (such as the MILLIONS murdered, raped and tortured by the jews as stated in the Old Testament) or simply for face.




3 things in the world is the most powerful .

Death
Happiness
Love

Christianity promises eternal life , eternal bliss , and unconditional love .
All of that if you do as god pleases.

But that on the line , you know where the path leads.
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:24 AM #2967
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Mistakes that happened before we were born shouldn't really be held against every Christian today.
COUGH adam and eve COUGH COUGH
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:36 AM #2968
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You made it sound like you understand the mindset of Jesus, but now you're saying because the scripture has been translated by scholars(unbiased people who know what they are doing as much as it is possible) nothing can be correctly understood from the bible and everything is just made up twisted interpretations.

You really seem to have it out for Christianity and a dislike for me aswell, please tell me I'm wrong.
You should note that I began the entire statement with "from reading the new testament"

Jesus' own words, in the text, lead to the conclusion I posited
I am far from the only person that has noted this
The Jesus and the disciples in the bible honestly believed that the second coming was going to happen during their lifetime

There is no such thing as an "unbiased" person to begin with
However, in the context of the people that translated the various versions of the bible, they were VERY biased
They were biased by both their faith AND by the political powers in place during the translations

I don't hate christianity
I hate ignorance and the manipulating of people and causing suffering to further a political and/or personal goal

If you believe that all I have made fun of is christianity, then you have not read very far back in this thread

You get the christianity arguments because you are talking about christianity (plus, I will admit, christians and muslims are the most fun because they get riled up more easily than Ba'hai's or Santerians, etc.)

I don't personally, know you well enough or care about you enough to hate you personally
I believe I have already stated that it is not all about you.
When I write these posts, they are meant for a wider audience
You just help to provide the platform for the message and you seem to take arguments about christianity as personal attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
Mistakes that happened before we were born shouldn't really be held against every Christian today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
COUGH adam and eve COUGH COUGH
Duke, you seem to have a basic misunderstanding of the word, "mistake"

Peace,
dave
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Last edited by daguin; 08-07-2013 at 01:42 AM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:26 AM #2969
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ Cyparagon

Atheist or not I appreciate your sense of humor, and after typing that post I realized I was setting someone up for that. Your welcome

@ daguin


The disciples didn't believe Jesus was coming back within their lifetime. Here is a reference.

Did the Apostles Expect Jesus to Return in Their Lifetime? | CrazyPastor.Com

For the second time now, I don't take discussion about religion personally. I am enjoying some of the discussion and the challenging ideas. It's helping me to study, have ideas, and think in ways I haven't before.

I do try to show a level of respect though, you on the other hand insert small digs in your posts at my intelligence and quality of character. I didn't think it was much to expect the same instead of steriotypical "internet atheist" behavior.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:01 AM #2970
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ Cyparagon

Atheist or not I appreciate your sense of humor, and after typing that post I realized I was setting someone up for that. Your welcome

@ daguin


The disciples didn't believe Jesus was coming back within their lifetime. Here is a reference.

Did the Apostles Expect Jesus to Return in Their Lifetime? | CrazyPastor.Com

For the second time now, I don't take discussion about religion personally. I am enjoying some of the discussion and the challenging ideas. It's helping me to study, have ideas, and think in ways I haven't before.

I do try to show a level of respect though, you on the other hand insert small digs in your posts at my intelligence and quality of character. I didn't think it was much to expect the same instead of steriotypical "internet atheist" behavior.
Duke, I want to ask you something , if it isn't too personal.
Why do you need Jesus?

Last edited by EpicHam; 08-07-2013 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:10 PM #2971
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ Cyparagon

Atheist or not I appreciate your sense of humor, and after typing that post I realized I was setting someone up for that. Your welcome

@ daguin


The disciples didn't believe Jesus was coming back within their lifetime. Here is a reference.

Did the Apostles Expect Jesus to Return in Their Lifetime? | CrazyPastor.Com

For the second time now, I don't take discussion about religion personally. I am enjoying some of the discussion and the challenging ideas. It's helping me to study, have ideas, and think in ways I haven't before.

I do try to show a level of respect though, you on the other hand insert small digs in your posts at my intelligence and quality of character. I didn't think it was much to expect the same instead of steriotypical "internet atheist" behavior.
Here are your words, not mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You really seem to have it out for Christianity and a dislike for me aswell, please tell me I'm wrong.
Do you want to talk about religion or me?

Response about the "end times" from the bible:

The End Times

Peace,
dave
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:12 PM #2972
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Double post because this is the reason I came here this morning

Christian children's entertainer who allegedly plotted to kidnap and eat kids sentenced to 20 years in jail - NYPOST.com

Peace,
dave
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:23 PM #2973
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Wow! Creeepy...

Daily Kos: Three Words: Christian Cannibal Puppeteer

I'll skip the obvious cannibal, vampire comments, but yeah... Scary.

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Old 08-07-2013, 06:25 PM #2974
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:32 PM #2975
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ EpicHam

It's not a need, it's a choice that has been given to us.

@ daguin

That article is nearly an exact parallel, but I will reference this bit that I feel describes it.

Quote:
It is common in these days for people to say very general things about the Bible, and paint with broad strokes, instead of carefully paying attention to what was written.
And to answer your question, yes I did, but it remains unclear to me if that's your intention.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:35 PM #2976
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
@ EpicHam

It's not a need, it's a choice has been given to us.

@ daguin

That article is nearly an exact parallel, but I will reference this bit that I feel describes it.



And to answer your question, yes I did, but it remains unclear to me if that's your intention.
Was it ?
If you don't believe , you are going to hell and will suffer unimaginable pain for all of eternity.

Its more of a blackmail than a "choice"
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