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Old 04-16-2013, 08:47 PM #2545
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Default Re: LPF's Religion





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Old 04-16-2013, 10:27 PM #2546
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:02 AM #2547
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
No one is ever told to follow all the teachings of the Bible - you forget the context of the teachings. Who wrote it? Why? Who was the intended audience? You don't see Christians following Leviticus and Deuteronomy for that reason.

All those qualifiers are not valenced at all when it simply comes down to how closely your doctrine follows scripture. Scripture can be the only standard Christians use today - its the only thing we have to act as that threshold. If it isn't, then the door opens up for guys like Joseph Smith and any other cult that follows some guy who claims to have special revelation from the divine. I've chosen the such guy whose actions and influence are well documented throughout history - the guy whose eye witnesses suffered and died because of their testimony to what happened, and who He was. From an atheistic perspective that looks at history honestly, it can be admittedly shown that Jesus began something big - that He was apparently onto something.

The church is a whore - but she is my mother.
Well you believing that you were not laying down valenced judgements does not negate the valence.

You are welcomed to believe whatever you choose

I only stepped in because you called forth the magic label "christian" like it truly meant something that it doesn't.

The vast majority of "christians" hold very different views from yours.
Yet by using that magic word, you can appear to be a majority

As far as starting the thread you proposed: The forum tolerates religious discussion in this thread only.

Peace,
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Old 04-17-2013, 05:50 AM #2548
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cube777 View Post
I'm with meatball on this, some people get their own ideas about Christianity and some people start beleiving their own variations on Christianity and that's when things go wrong. People take parts of the Scripture and make fun of it, whilst not understanding the big picture. God is not a judging God (and will not cause things like the bombing that took place because He wants to judge gay's) , and he isn't judging you and making stupid statements like most of the gif's on this thread imply. Us Christians are not idiots like a lot of you think we are. You can believe what you want to believe, but don't offend and mock Christianity.
I really didn't want to add to your comment, but I feel I must... The entire bible after creation is about how god will judge us and how we must live our lives to fear the final judgment... If you follow the history of god, throughout the bible, then you know that not only has the entire world minus the ark been destroyed before (through god), but whole groups of people have had what FPSRussia calls, a very bad day... So, please tell me again how, "God is not a judging God (and will not cause things like the bombing that took place because He wants to judge gay's) , and he isn't judging you and making stupid statements"...
-Shane
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Old 04-17-2013, 08:24 AM #2549
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I realize the forum policy on this topic - I was just making a point really. I'll save it for reddit.

But I won't just post a photo from a site I found on de-webs without saying that its one of the many many places that report the spread of things.

I don't know, but I would say I'm somewhere well within the "vast majority".



The "vast majority" of those in the red, green , violet, and dark blue are using the same book as I am.

My point is, is that I think there are tons of goofy sects that (IE the light blue) that all hang out where the others don't let them. The light blue stripe of churches appear to be the ones all over the news, making crackpot claims and treating their Bible like some kind of "suggestive hint" to justify whatever they actually want.

I think some of the light blue is geographically localized in places (nearer the coasts?), where they get lots of media attention, and where people there frankly get a little freaked out by them. (Understandably)

Let me tell you what I mean. In the cozy plains of the USA, I can generally tell someone I'm a Christian, and they have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, what I mean when I say it. They think, "Oh, he's some kind of Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Catholic, ok whatever". That's what the magical word actually means to them. That's normal. The "Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's witnessess and Mormons and highly charismatic groups that seem to say goofy things are just not a common sight here - like at all.

If I were to go to the Southern side, they might think "He's either a Catholic or a Baptist for sure".

But if I go to the coasts, I hypothesize that they might think something like this instead:

"Oh great. He could be a homophobic racist that humps farm animals and believes the Earth is 6000 years old. He's probably judging me this very second, thinking of a way to tell me how I'm condemned to burn. He's most likely short on logic and reason, and will probably turn into the wind claiming to 'feel the spirit of god moving' the next time a breeze picks up."

That's what you guys make me think anyways... by the way Christianity is portrayed here.

I am in the majority Dave, make no mistake about it. But what you think "Christian" really means then? If it does not truly mean what I mean it to?

So when I tell you I'm a Christian, which of the above do you tend think of first? Just be honest, as I'm curious. Maybe I can test my hypothesis someday soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Well you believing that you were not laying down valenced judgements does not negate the valence.

You are welcomed to believe whatever you choose

I only stepped in because you called forth the magic label "christian" like it truly meant something that it doesn't.

The vast majority of "christians" hold very different views from yours.
Yet by using that magic word, you can appear to be a majority

As far as starting the thread you proposed: The forum tolerates religious discussion in this thread only.

Peace,
dave
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:16 PM #2550
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
I realize the forum policy on this topic - I was just making a point really. I'll save it for reddit.

But I won't just post a photo from a site I found on de-webs without saying that its one of the many many places that report the spread of things.

I don't know, but I would say I'm somewhere well within the "vast majority".



The "vast majority" of those in the red, green , violet, and dark blue are using the same book as I am.

My point is, is that I think there are tons of goofy sects that (IE the light blue) that all hang out where the others don't let them. The light blue stripe of churches appear to be the ones all over the news, making crackpot claims and treating their Bible like some kind of "suggestive hint" to justify whatever they actually want.

I think some of the light blue is geographically localized in places (nearer the coasts?), where they get lots of media attention, and where people there frankly get a little freaked out by them. (Understandably)

Let me tell you what I mean. In the cozy plains of the USA, I can generally tell someone I'm a Christian, and they have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about, what I mean when I say it. They think, "Oh, he's some kind of Lutheran, Presbyterian, or Catholic, ok whatever". That's what the magical word actually means to them. That's normal. The "Latter Day Saints and Jehovah's witnessess and Mormons and highly charismatic groups that seem to say goofy things are just not a common sight here - like at all.

If I were to go to the Southern side, they might think "He's either a Catholic or a Baptist for sure".

But if I go to the coasts, I hypothesize that they might think something like this instead:

"Oh great. He could be a homophobic racist that humps farm animals and believes the Earth is 6000 years old. He's probably judging me this very second, thinking of a way to tell me how I'm condemned to burn. He's most likely short on logic and reason, and will probably turn into the wind claiming to 'feel the spirit of god moving' the next time a breeze picks up."

That's what you guys make me think anyways... by the way Christianity is portrayed here.

I am in the majority Dave, make no mistake about it. But what you think "Christian" really means then? If it does not truly mean what I mean it to?

So when I tell you I'm a Christian, which of the above do you tend think of first? Just be honest, as I'm curious. Maybe I can test my hypothesis someday soon.

Catholics, orthodox, and protestants do NOT use the same book
Even within the protestant groups, there are several "variations" of the book used
Even their basic ideologies are VERY different

The reason I asked what you mean by "christian" is that I understand the uselessness of that label for anything but personal good feelings and politics
When "I" hear the word, I think just what I posted, "What kind of christian are you?"

I was trained in the Assembly of God church BEFORE, the abortion issue was used to "collect" the different sects and denominations under one umbrella
I will admit to being more cognitively complex than the average Joe, but the question is a valid one
Before the abortion issue required political activists to "need" big numbers, people called themselves by the name of the sect or denomination they adhered to

In addition I have studied many of the world's religions
Without the magic label of "christian" you are a member of a small denomination of the protestant movement
Before the 16th century, your sect didn't even exist

Peace,
dave
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:34 PM #2551
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitShane View Post
I really didn't want to add to your comment, but I feel I must... The entire bible after creation is about how god will judge us and how we must live our lives to fear the final judgment... If you follow the history of god, throughout the bible, then you know that not only has the entire world minus the ark been destroyed before (through god), but whole groups of people have had what FPSRussia calls, a very bad day... So, please tell me again how, "God is not a judging God (and will not cause things like the bombing that took place because He wants to judge gay's) , and he isn't judging you and making stupid statements"...
-Shane
Before Jesus came to Earth God DID judge people for their sin (like the flood, etc.) while they were on the Earth. After Jesus came and died for our sins, God doesn't look upon us as sinful people (after we've been born again) anymore and He doesn't judge or let out his wrath on ANYONE while they are on Earth. BUT, when we die, God will ultimately judge us according to if we accepted Jesus as our Savior, or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitShane View Post
We are talking about god. We are talking about the entire idea of god. We are not talking about just the parts of god that you want to talk about. Just because the bible's sequel was better than the original, doesn't mean the original never happened... This is what people believed. If Christianity is based off the same god, that is spoke of in the old testament, than how can you say that your religion only follows the new testament? I was taught that people that don't attend our church where evil. I was taught that black people where ni****s. I was taught that women whose children are birthed out of wedlock were bastards and that those women if not god fearing would go to hell. I do not believe any of this. God kills kittens and babys. End of story...

BTW, if we should not judge, then why does god judge us...?
When Jesus came to the Earth He broke the Law the Jews were living under, and don't get me wrong, I read and believe in The Old Testament. We don't live under the law of Moses anymore as Jesus came to free us of the Law. I don't know what church you were brought up in, but the church I go to learns us of a loving, forgiving and kind God. Even in the Bible we are taught by Jesus to not condemn sinners, or judge other people, as God is the only just Judge. Matthew 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye." How can we judge other people if we also sin?
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:45 PM #2552
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If you'd like to go into hermeneutics, the variations you attribute to entirely different books the church uses, are reduced to the method used to do the translation and interpretation. I would use KJV if I was told to study to medieval philosophy of a Turkish Monk. I would use to NIV or ESV for a more fluent read - where NIV is translated idea by idea, sentence by sentence and ESV is translated phrase by phrase - attempting to recapture any linguistic allegory inserted by the author. For studying scripture word by word, I would go to the New American Standard. I would not be afraid to use the New American Bible, but is it appropriate in every situation? No..

Since there is no "single" translation perfect for the ever evolving English language, its natural to assume variation as scholars learn more about the writings, language and history, and as new language evolves.

Whether or not someone wants to take the book of St. Joseph as scripture or not frankly is out of my reach. If a book is missing historical references, it might be grounds for some to not include it in the Bible. Many wish that Ruth was excluded - because its a "nasty" story people don't 'like' to read. It doesn't even mention God throughout the entire book - but it made it in.

Which "basic" ideologies are so very different? I would be interested in knowing what you do.

While you were at the Assembly of God, I would have taken the time to tell you why their various healings and charasmatic nature is not Biblical. But I would have done so because you would claim extraordinary cognitive complexities - able to understand the difference between Biblical events, and actual Biblical teachings.

Not everyone has that capacity however. Some people are only emotionally involved with their church which in my opinion is dangerous. But does that mean that they are not Christians? Are they charismatic? Do they baptize babies? Doesn't matter. All that does is their accepted route to salvation - the one route. Its not my function to separate the "good" and "bad". But when atheists lump attributes from the "bad" and the "good", I feel the need to step in and distinguish.

So kind of Christian am I? Well I was born into the E-Free, I was baptized as a child in the Lutheran church, I grew up in the Presbyterian church, I came to accept the Gospel in the Berean church, and now I dabble between a couple of the two, and sometime go to a Catholic Mass with my friends.

I'm not even a "member" of any of these churches. But like my parents, I don't skip around because of theological differences and changes. Its because different churches are better at addressing and supplying some needs over others. My parents moved my sisters and I around through different churches growing up because our family had changing needs - a larger youth program, a larger base of young families, a stronger presence of pastoral direction, a warmer congregation for the sake of fellowship and making friends. Those are the important differences. So what kind of Christian am I?

I doubt there is even a name for it. And why does there have to be? The only name I can adopt is the one that stand from the meaning of the word.

"mini - Christ" <-- Christian

Not sure what you mean about the abortion thing. I must not have been paying attention/alive at the time. The "Big" churches (Berean, E-Free, New Life Assembly, Prespyterian, Lutheran) at home get together every year for a giant Easter service - a reminder of the single "ideology" or "gospel" between them. The larger Catholic church offered to host, but there was no way their building would support the numbers. They stayed in their own building for the service.

Ever read up on St. Francis of Assisi's life and death?


Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
Catholics, orthodox, and protestants do NOT use the same book
Even within the protestant groups, there are several "variations" of the book used
Even their basic ideologies are VERY different

The reason I asked what you mean by "christian" is that I understand the uselessness of that label for anything but personal good feelings and politics
When "I" hear the word, I think just what I posted, "What kind of christian are you?"

I was trained in the Assembly of God church BEFORE, the abortion issue was used to "collect" the different sects and denominations under one umbrella
I will admit to being more cognitively complex than the average Joe, but the question is a valid one
Before the abortion issue required political activists to "need" big numbers, people called themselves by the name of the sect or denomination they adhered to

In addition I have studied many of the world's religions
Without the magic label of "christian" you are a member of a small denomination of the protestant movement
Before the 16th century, your sect didn't even exist

Peace,
dave
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:00 PM #2553
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

George Carlin: R.I.P. you will be sorely missed, and have been missed already.
Here are two: one from time bandits that came to mind:I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! - YouTube
The other I think neatly summarizes the absurdity of Christianity in less than 10 min.Conversation with Yahweh - YouTube

I really hate this idea that religious ideas should be protected from scrutiny and ridicule, that they are somehow arbitrarily better for society than no religion at all, even if they are factually flawed. Any idea put to a public forum should be open to scrutiny and ridicule, especially if it is stupid. If you make a claim, be prepared to defend it. Do not get offended when others challenge your claim, as if your faith holds a special place among ideas, safe from any explanation or burden of proof.

I read Evolution: The greatest show on earth by Richard Dawkins a while back. In it he tells how he tried to set up (succeeded eventually i think) a non-profit, tax free charity for science of some sort. As most know, religions enjoy arbitrary tax freedom, just ask L. Ron Hubbard. Anyway the government asked Dawkins to please explain how science had benefited humanity to deserve tax exempt status. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! Did they ask this question to every religion that had ever applied for this tax-exempt status? Something tells me the answer is no. If they did, I would like to get a transcript of the reply
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:10 AM #2554
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
If you'd like to go into hermeneutics, the variations you attribute to entirely different books the church uses, are reduced to the method used to do the translation and interpretation. I would use KJV if I was told to study to medieval philosophy of a Turkish Monk. I would use to NIV or ESV for a more fluent read - where NIV is translated idea by idea, sentence by sentence and ESV is translated phrase by phrase - attempting to recapture any linguistic allegory inserted by the author. For studying scripture word by word, I would go to the New American Standard. I would not be afraid to use the New American Bible, but is it appropriate in every situation? No..

Since there is no "single" translation perfect for the ever evolving English language, its natural to assume variation as scholars learn more about the writings, language and history, and as new language evolves.

Whether or not someone wants to take the book of St. Joseph as scripture or not frankly is out of my reach. If a book is missing historical references, it might be grounds for some to not include it in the Bible. Many wish that Ruth was excluded - because its a "nasty" story people don't 'like' to read. It doesn't even mention God throughout the entire book - but it made it in.

Which "basic" ideologies are so very different? I would be interested in knowing what you do.

While you were at the Assembly of God, I would have taken the time to tell you why their various healings and charasmatic nature is not Biblical. But I would have done so because you would claim extraordinary cognitive complexities - able to understand the difference between Biblical events, and actual Biblical teachings.

Not everyone has that capacity however. Some people are only emotionally involved with their church which in my opinion is dangerous. But does that mean that they are not Christians? Are they charismatic? Do they baptize babies? Doesn't matter. All that does is their accepted route to salvation - the one route. Its not my function to separate the "good" and "bad". But when atheists lump attributes from the "bad" and the "good", I feel the need to step in and distinguish.

So kind of Christian am I? Well I was born into the E-Free, I was baptized as a child in the Lutheran church, I grew up in the Presbyterian church, I came to accept the Gospel in the Berean church, and now I dabble between a couple of the two, and sometime go to a Catholic Mass with my friends.

I'm not even a "member" of any of these churches. But like my parents, I don't skip around because of theological differences and changes. Its because different churches are better at addressing and supplying some needs over others. My parents moved my sisters and I around through different churches growing up because our family had changing needs - a larger youth program, a larger base of young families, a stronger presence of pastoral direction, a warmer congregation for the sake of fellowship and making friends. Those are the important differences. So what kind of Christian am I?

I doubt there is even a name for it. And why does there have to be? The only name I can adopt is the one that stand from the meaning of the word.

"mini - Christ" <-- Christian

Not sure what you mean about the abortion thing. I must not have been paying attention/alive at the time. The "Big" churches (Berean, E-Free, New Life Assembly, Prespyterian, Lutheran) at home get together every year for a giant Easter service - a reminder of the single "ideology" or "gospel" between them. The larger Catholic church offered to host, but there was no way their building would support the numbers. They stayed in their own building for the service.

Ever read up on St. Francis of Assisi's life and death?
I work to simplify the discussion
You work to make it unwieldy and add new things

A simple, "You are right. We do not use the same book" would have sufficed

So it is not your function, but you will do it when you feel the need?

This all began because YOU chose to use a label for yourself and your perceived cohorts
Now you argue against giving yourself one of the existing labels

"I wouldn't say I'm this. I wouldn't say I'm that. I'm just saying that I'm me and I believe"
I believe that your subconscious mind is showing you that the belief system to which you adhere is too flawed to follow completely, so it makes up a frankenstein of separate concepts and calls it good

I would further posit that all of these "variations" and shades of belief are simply an archaic belief system's efforts to try to remain relevant in a world that is quickly showing it as irrelevant

The basic ideologic difference between catholicism and protestantism:
Catholics and orthodox can only reach god through the church
Protestants can reach god personally

Re: "The abortion thing" I have previously posted a "Big Think" video by Penn Jillette which covers this. IIRC, it starts out as an evaluation of the presidential candidates in the last election

I have read up on St. Francis of Assisi.
Have you read up on La Regla De Ocha O Santeria?
I would think, that from your perspective, the life of Martin Luther would be more relevant

You are a believer. I have already said you are free to believe. I do not care as long as you are not hurting yourself and/or others
The apparent challenge here lies in that you want others to believe as well.

I have done my explorations and research.
I will not be persuaded by lengthy posts in a laser forum

Go with god
I'm going to go back to mostly making fun of all religions

Peace,
dave
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:11 AM #2555
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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All that does [matter] is their accepted route to salvation - the one route.
Indeed. There is but one path to salvation, and everyone believes that they and they alone are traveling it. To convolute matters further, everyone defines salvation differently.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:55 AM #2556
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:46 AM #2557
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:22 PM #2558
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:58 PM #2559
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Peace,
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:30 AM #2560
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