Old 04-16-2013, 08:29 AM #2529
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

^^Are you really trying to imply that the doctrine of Christianity can be reflected by people that pray for menial things and "churches" which hate gay people and rejoice in the pain and suffering of others?

Not to be a whiner, but sometimes it becomes quite difficult to not take a lot of this stuff personally. Shane you don't know me, my family, or my friends. If you did, I think you would have a different opinion of Christians.

Dammit how do the ^^^^ing 1% minority always gets to represent the other 99%?

How does that even work? Is it the cities nearer the coast that have all these religious nutjobs that are hated and made fun of? All these weirdos I always hear about but have never met don't seem to fit-in very well in Nebraska.

Any idiot who doesn't actually understand the teachings, and the gospel message can make an internet meme, or funny GIF. But that has never gotten them to communicate anything accurate about it. Their entire capacity to think and reason from allegory is lost on them.

I'm about to start an "I'm a Christian, AMA" thread.


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Old 04-16-2013, 03:32 PM #2530
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Sorry.
I am a "Christian" is a bit too vague.
Perhaps the below list of groups who believe in Christ will help you focus a bit

Christianity
Eastern Orthodoxy
Roman Catholicism
Oriental Orthodoxy (Monophysitism)
Nestorianism
Protestantism
Anabaptists
Anglicans
Baptists
Lutherans
Methodists
Pentecostals
Reformed
Calvinism
Presbyterian
Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
Unitarians
Waldensians
Latter-day Saints
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Community of Christ
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Seventh-day Adventist
Jehovah's Witnesses
Messianic Judaism (not actually Judaism but rather Jewish-rite Christianity)
Samaritans
Mandaeanists
Rastafarians
Black Hebrews
Hebrew Christians


Abrahamic sects that believed Jesus was a prophet
Ebionites
Elkasites
Nazarenes
Crypto-Jews
Marranos
Conversos

Source(s):
The Skeptics Society & Skeptic magazine
CSI

If you haven't found your niche yet, I can post a fairly complete list of all of the "religions and/or belief systems" for you.

I only hesitated to post the complete list because it is THIRTEEN pages long

Peace,
dave
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:15 PM #2531
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
^^Are you really trying to imply that the doctrine of Christianity can be reflected by people that pray for menial things and "churches" which hate gay people and rejoice in the pain and suffering of others?

Not to be a whiner, but sometimes it becomes quite difficult to not take a lot of this stuff personally. Shane you don't know me, my family, or my friends. If you did, I think you would have a different opinion of Christians.

Dammit how do the ^^^^ing 1% minority always gets to represent the other 99%?

How does that even work? Is it the cities nearer the coast that have all these religious nutjobs that are hated and made fun of? All these weirdos I always hear about but have never met don't seem to fit-in very well in Nebraska.

Any idiot who doesn't actually understand the teachings, and the gospel message can make an internet meme, or funny GIF. But that has never gotten them to communicate anything accurate about it. Their entire capacity to think and reason from allegory is lost on them.

I'm about to start an "I'm a Christian, AMA" thread.
The WBC represents christianity about as much as ultra orthodox jews who attack women without a head cover represent judaism, or al qaeda represents muslims.
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:29 PM #2532
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm with meatball on this, some people get their own ideas about Christianity and some people start beleiving their own variations on Christianity and that's when things go wrong. People take parts of the Scripture and make fun of it, whilst not understanding the big picture. God is not a judging God (and will not cause things like the bombing that took place because He wants to judge gay's) , and he isn't judging you and making stupid statements like most of the gif's on this thread imply. Us Christians are not idiots like a lot of you think we are. You can believe what you want to believe, but don't offend and mock Christianity.
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:42 PM #2533
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cube777 View Post
I'm with meatball on this, some people get their own ideas about Christianity and some people start beleiving their own variations on Christianity and that's when things go wrong. People take parts of the Scripture and make fun of it, whilst not understanding the big picture. God is not a judging God (and will not cause things like the bombing that took place because He wants to judge gay's) , and he isn't judging you and making stupid statements like most of the gif's on this thread imply. Us Christians are not idiots like a lot of you think we are. You can believe what you want to believe, but don't offend and mock Christianity.
Educate me a bit.

What exactly does your god do?

Aren't you supposed to go to heaven, or hell, depending on how you lead your life?

Isn't god the judge of your post death existence?

What makes the beliefs of these WBC nutjobs any less crazy than the beliefs of most christians?

Surely you can't claim to live by all the tenets of the bible?

Since you pick and choose, why are they wrong to do so?

While I don't believe in him either... yes I am playing devil's advocate.
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:57 PM #2534
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Dave,

If we go through the list and weed out the ones that are well known for cherry picking through scripture, avoiding hot topics like the plague (so nobody has feelings hurt), reducing the reach of the Grace, amplifying narrow minded interpretations while stifling others, attenuating the claims of scripture, Adding to scripture, proclaiming a "works" based salvation, and claiming to be the "only" right denomination, we are left we quite a few less - aren't we?

My flavor is probably closest to Presbyterian, or Evangelical Free. But that means I would also fit in well with lots of other denominations - I've been attending a Berean church for the last year - which is a separation from the E-Free.

But saying I'm usually "leaning" one direction or another on issues like Baptism and other sacraments doesn't mean much. Each denomination has its own spread of variation. The variation is normal - its just that some of the variation along the way constitutes a new name. Is it right? Probably not. Am I in control of it? Sometimes I wish..

Latter-day Saints
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Seventh-day Adventist
Jehovah's Witnesses

^^I would not fit in well there at all - for many of the reasons above. Many would not consider them "Christian" at all. But then again, many Lutherans might say the same thing about Catholicism. Just a few of many groups from above, "doing it wrong" according to the book they claim to uphold (only after cherry picking).

I appreciate your perspective IE.

Cube - I might say your reading of scripture is rather "soft". God is indeed a just God - the only judge. He's the reason why Christians are not supposed to judge others. If there is to be justice, there will be a judge.

His role as judge is the reason man is said to need Grace in the first place. If God is not a judging God, Grace becomes meaningless and Christ's death for null!

EDIT: You've got me covered IE!

Its NOT about how you lead your life. The idea here is that Christ lived the perfect life, so that we don't have to. /attenuated version - I need to get to class.
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:00 PM #2535
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Educate me a bit.

What exactly does your god do?

Aren't you supposed to go to heaven, or hell, depending on how you lead your life?

Isn't god the judge of your post death existence?

What makes the beliefs of these WBC nutjobs any less crazy than the beliefs of most christians?

Surely you can't claim to live by all the tenets of the bible?

Since you pick and choose, why are they wrong to do so?

While I don't believe in him either... yes I am playing devil's advocate.

You have just proven my statement that I made in my post above, you only take parts of the Bible and then make assumptions. Even if you've led a sinful life, and you admit that Jesus is your Savior, God will forgive you all your sins. After you have repented, then you should try not to sin, but even if you do sin, God will still forgive you (unless you just live on like you used to before your repented). No-one can lead a sinless life (Except Jesus) God doesn't judge you while your on earth (like the bombing) but He will judge you on Judgement day. And then He will judge fairly.

@Meatball With judging I meant doing things like the bombing
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:08 PM #2536
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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You have just proven my statement that I made in my post above, you only take parts of the Bible and then make assumptions.

As do you... or do you claim to follow all tenets of the bible, and not just in spirit but actually in practice?

Even if you've led a sinful life, and you admit that Jesus is your Savior, God will forgive you all your sins. After you have repented, then you should try not to sin, but even if you do sin, God will still forgive you (unless you just live on like you used to before your repented). No-one can lead a sinless life (Except Jesus) God doesn't judge you while your on earth (like the bombing) but He will judge you on Judgement day. And then He will judge fairly.
So to sum up I can be pure, evil, rape, murder, pillage, plunder, kill puppies for fun, but so long as I accept that Jesus is my lord and saviour and I'm sorry about it, it's all good I'm forgiven and get to go to heaven?

Is there a trick clause, like you have to repent before you die and get judged?

Also, didn't you say earlier that god doesn't judge? Or he only judges after you die?

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Old 04-16-2013, 05:13 PM #2537
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
So to sum up I can be pure, evil, rape, murder, pillage, plunder, kill puppies for fun, but so long as I accept that Jesus is my lord and saviour and I'm sorry about it, it's all good I'm forgiven and get to go to heaven?

Is there a trick clause, like you have to repent before you die and get judged?
Read my post fully, if you repent and then just go on living your life the same way you lived before, the Bible says that Jesus will not see you as a born again believer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Also, didn't you say earlier that god doesn't judge? Or he only judges after you die?
Read the message that I sent to Meatball
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Old 04-16-2013, 05:25 PM #2538
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Dave,

If we go through the list and weed out the ones that are well known for cherry picking through scripture, avoiding hot topics like the plague (so nobody has feelings hurt), reducing the reach of the Grace, amplifying narrow minded interpretations while stifling others, attenuating the claims of scripture, Adding to scripture, proclaiming a "works" based salvation, and claiming to be the "only" right denomination, we are left we quite a few less - aren't we?
The argument could easily be made that ALL of the different "perspectives" (including your own) are doing exactly what you described above. "NO ONE" follows ALL of the teachings in the bible.

Below you call these actions "variation" and "leaning" and appear to accept them.
Above you use words like cherry picking, avoiding, reducing, amplifying, attenuating, and adding; and then imply that those perspective should be eliminated from inclusion on the list.
Are not all of those qualifiers simply ways to leave a valenced measure on variation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
My flavor is probably closest to Presbyterian, or Evangelical Free. But that means I would also fit in well with lots of other denominations - I've been attending a Berean church for the last year - which is a separation from the E-Free.

But saying I'm usually "leaning" one direction or another on issues like Baptism and other sacraments doesn't mean much. Each denomination has its own spread of variation. The variation is normal - its just that some of the variation along the way constitutes a new name. Is it right? Probably not. Am I in control of it? Sometimes I wish..

Latter-day Saints
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Seventh-day Adventist
Jehovah's Witnesses

^^I would not fit in well there at all - for many of the reasons above. Many would not consider them "Christian" at all. But then again, many Lutherans might say the same thing about Catholicism. Just a few of many groups from above, "doing it wrong" according to the book they claim to uphold (only after cherry picking).

I appreciate your perspective IE.

Cube - I might say your reading of scripture is rather "soft". God is indeed a just God - the only judge. He's the reason why Christians are not supposed to judge others. If there is to be justice, there will be a judge.

His role as judge is the reason man is said to need Grace in the first place. If God is not a judging God, Grace becomes meaningless and Christ's death for null!

EDIT: You've got me covered IE!

Its NOT about how you lead your life. The idea here is that Christ lived the perfect life, so that we don't have to. /attenuated version - I need to get to class.
Jesus only led a perfect life if you accept only the documents (the bible was NEVER just one document before the congresses that re-wrote it) in their current form. If you read the Apocrypha and other works from the time, Jesus was much less than perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cube777 View Post
You have just proven my statement that I made in my post above, you only take parts of the Bible and then make assumptions. Even if you've led a sinful life, and you admit that Jesus is your Savior, God will forgive you all your sins. After you have repented, then you should try not to sin, but even if you do sin, God will still forgive you (unless you just live on like you used to before your repented). No-one can lead a sinless life (Except Jesus) God doesn't judge you while your on earth (like the bombing) but He will judge you on Judgement day. And then He will judge fairly.

@Meatball With judging I meant doing things like the bombing
I am reminded of the words of Emo Phillips.

“When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn’t work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.”

That sort of belief leads to quite a bit of ethical "fuzziness"

Peace,
dave
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:23 PM #2539
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

In the John 14:15 Jesus says “If you love me, you will keep my commandments" and not "If you keep my commandments, I will love you". If you really are born again you will try not to sin (because you love God, and you know what He has done for YOU), and if you keep sinning just thinking "God will forgive me" remember Revelation 3:16 "So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth."
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:34 PM #2540
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
^^Are you really trying to imply that the doctrine of Christianity can be reflected by people that pray for menial things and "churches" which hate gay people and rejoice in the pain and suffering of others?

Not to be a whiner, but sometimes it becomes quite difficult to not take a lot of this stuff personally. Shane you don't know me, my family, or my friends. If you did, I think you would have a different opinion of Christians.

Dammit how do the ^^^^ing 1% minority always gets to represent the other 99%?

How does that even work? Is it the cities nearer the coast that have all these religious nutjobs that are hated and made fun of? All these weirdos I always hear about but have never met don't seem to fit-in very well in Nebraska.

Any idiot who doesn't actually understand the teachings, and the gospel message can make an internet meme, or funny GIF. But that has never gotten them to communicate anything accurate about it. Their entire capacity to think and reason from allegory is lost on them.

I'm about to start an "I'm a Christian, AMA" thread.
I must tell you that the WBC picture is not a meme but a screen shot of their current twitter account in relation to the Boston Marathon Bombing... I was just throwing that out there so people that are unaware know what is going on in the world. I was raised a Christian and attended many Sundays throughout my life in either church or its Sunday school practices. I do believe that the bible was created in the best interests of humanity to propose common moral values amongst people. Are people bad if they have not read or studied the bible, no. Are children born into this world racist or evil, no. I do believe that the stories in the bible are horrible and teach our children that just because someone is a certain way, then they should be banished or looked down at. I could even argue that teaching these stories to children are what is wrong with the world and promote racism. Can't we just all be equal people. Can't we just be all called humans? Religion is discriminatory by nature...
-Shane
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:45 PM #2541
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I do believe that the stories in the bible are horrible and teach our children that just because someone is a certain way, then they should be banished or looked down at.
Can you please tell me to what story you refer to? From the New Testament, as the Jews were very judging the Old Testament, but in the New Testament Jesus learns us that we should not judge.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:03 PM #2542
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Can you please tell me to what story you refer to? From the New Testament, as the Jews were very judging the Old Testament, but in the New Testament Jesus learns us that we should not judge.
We are talking about god. We are talking about the entire idea of god. We are not talking about just the parts of god that you want to talk about. Just because the bible's sequel was better than the original, doesn't mean the original never happened... This is what people believed. If Christianity is based off the same god, that is spoke of in the old testament, than how can you say that your religion only follows the new testament? I was taught that people that don't attend our church where evil. I was taught that black people where ni****s. I was taught that women whose children are birthed out of wedlock were bastards and that those women if not god fearing would go to hell. I do not believe any of this. God kills kittens and babys. End of story...

BTW, if we should not judge, then why does god judge us...?
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:10 PM #2543
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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1:48, 4:22 and the finish,

The guy won. At life. He freaking WON AT LIFE. I'd nominate the guy for Nobel Prize in contributions to society.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:43 PM #2544
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The argument could easily be made that ALL of the different "perspectives" (including your own) are doing exactly what you described above. "NO ONE" follows ALL of the teachings in the bible.

Below you call these actions "variation" and "leaning" and appear to accept them.
Above you use words like cherry picking, avoiding, reducing, amplifying, attenuating, and adding; and then imply that those perspective should be eliminated from inclusion on the list.
Are not all of those qualifiers simply ways to leave a valenced measure on variation?

Jesus only led a perfect life if you accept only the documents (the bible was NEVER just one document before the congresses that re-wrote it) in their current form. If you read the Apocrypha and other works from the time, Jesus was much less than perfect.

I am reminded of the words of Emo Phillips.

“When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn’t work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.”

That sort of belief leads to quite a bit of ethical "fuzziness"

Peace,
dave
No one is ever told to follow all the teachings of the Bible - you forget the context of the teachings. Who wrote it? Why? Who was the intended audience? You don't see Christians following Leviticus and Deuteronomy for that reason.

All those qualifiers are not valenced at all when it simply comes down to how closely your doctrine follows scripture. Scripture can be the only standard Christians use today - its the only thing we have to act as that threshold. If it isn't, then the door opens up for guys like Joseph Smith and any other cult that follows some guy who claims to have special revelation from the divine. I've chosen the such guy whose actions and influence are well documented throughout history - the guy whose eye witnesses suffered and died because of their testimony to what happened, and who He was. From an atheistic perspective that looks at history honestly, it can be admittedly shown that Jesus began something big - that He was apparently onto something.

The church is a whore - but she is my mother.

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Originally Posted by HitShane View Post
I must tell you that the WBC picture is not a meme but a screen shot of their current twitter account in relation to the Boston Marathon Bombing... I was just throwing that out there so people that are unaware know what is going on in the world. I was raised a Christian and attended many Sundays throughout my life in either church or its Sunday school practices. I do believe that the bible was created in the best interests of humanity to propose common moral values amongst people. Are people bad if they have not read or studied the bible, no. Are children born into this world racist or evil, no. I do believe that the stories in the bible are horrible and teach our children that just because someone is a certain way, then they should be banished or looked down at. I could even argue that teaching these stories to children are what is wrong with the world and promote racism. Can't we just all be equal people. Can't we just be all called humans? Religion is discriminatory by nature...
-Shane
You were not "raised Christian" by any standard. That is impossible.

Is someone a homophobe because he reads the Bible? How about if he is a believer?

Are children born into this world with a "good willed" nature? No..

What teachings? Where is it taught that the Jesus follower should banish people? Clearly you are missing context/ a basic understanding of how to read a document. Trying to apply Jewish tradition to the life of a Christian is actually quite contradictory!

Mere Christianity teaches that all men are created equal in the sight of God. Where is this discriminatory "nature"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
So to sum up I can be pure, evil, rape, murder, pillage, plunder, kill puppies for fun, but so long as I accept that Jesus is my lord and saviour and I'm sorry about it, it's all good I'm forgiven and get to go to heaven?

Is there a trick clause, like you have to repent before you die and get judged?

Also, didn't you say earlier that god doesn't judge? Or he only judges after you die?
Not quite.

The move to repentance is actually a change from the inside to the outside. It is a 180 degree turn away from an old self. The idea is, you have become a "new creation", the old self has died with Christ.

Romans 6:1-2
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

Verse 15:
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!"

Clearly, Paul is saying something. He is making a point to the Church in Rome, who was thinking the same thing.. (I can go do what I want, and I'll be forgiven in the end).

The problem with that thought is, is that the man that has actually turned from his old self will have new desires - its described as a "new heart". He would not have a heart that even desires to delay his repentance.

In the very next chapter, Paul writes to the Romans again about this - explaining his new state as a saved man, and it look exactly like this:

"For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Romans 7:18-20

Oh hell. It so Christians are people too?

Yeah.

So the Christian is still susceptible to sin, just like all others are. It is Paul's new desires (Eg. Not killing people anymore - like he was doing several years previous) that mark his changed heart, his state of forgiveness.

In the past, God has judged entire nations, and individuals, and families while they're still doing those bad things. Eg. God floods the known world.

But what can predictably happen for everyone, is judgement. Someday, they stand before the most just judge, and are held accountable to every single thing they've done. But those who are covered by Grace are seen as righteous in the end, regardless of their atrocities pre and post their repentance. Kinda neat, eh? (The idea is to be seen as righteous in that very moment)

Those not covered by Grace (Eg. rejected the free offer) are also judged. All the atrocities people blame God for, all the genocidal dictators and those who starved children etc are served justice.

People ask: Why is there evil in the world? Why doesn't God strike down these evil men? Where is the justice that I hunger to see in this world?

It comes down to: It will happen.

So no. No raping or pillaging of villages if you think Christ can somehow die for you a second time.

Makes any sense?
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