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Old 03-05-2012, 04:10 PM #2305
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

its pretty sweet IMO


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Old 03-05-2012, 04:11 PM #2306
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
If religion were to be removed, a secular organization will easily fill the vacuum, and be much more efficient at it (because we actually value rational discussion, sound judgment with an evidence-based approach?). At least, we'd allow condom use in AIDS-ridden Africa, where millions die every year because the Catholic Church thinks, in all its holiness, that while AIDS is bad... apparently condoms are worse.

You're right: Jesus, Buddha can be role models for our values, but there's no need to invoke the supernatural. Still, not all their values work, such as: do onto others as others onto you, sounds great but is too idealistic and does not work. What if I were to be confronted by someone like Charles Manson? I don't want him to be treated how I want to be treated, and he sure as hell won't treat me how he wants to be treated.



To say science can't explain the supernatural is nonsense. Science does not only exist in the classroom, or in our "physical realm" as you put it. Science exists intrinsically in abstract thought, in mathematics, of concepts we cannot even begin to imagine. ie. Math can explain multiple dimensions above ours (and religious people even have the guts to use this with their God of the Gaps argument). Secondly, the theist God is suppose to work with our physical realm, in fact Christians believe he can interact and communicate with humans, even directly intervene through the occasional "miracle". After all, he created the physical realm, why can't he interact with it? Anyway, we don't necesarily need to detect the supernatural realm, but rather it is the interaction between the supernatural and the physical that we can detect. In the same methodology, we didn't know blackholes existed, until we realised how it interacted with the light around it--it curves the light. However, there is no such evidence, ever to be found in the entire history of mankind.

Believe it without evidence if you want, if it makes you happy, then knock yourself out. But I, and as well as many others, need evidence. Just don't bring down the intellectual paradise we have today as religious people constantly do in the past: in ancient Alexandria over 2000 years ago and in Baghdad, once the intellectual capital of the world during the Islamic Golden Age, and again in Europe during the Dark Ages, where centuries of discoveries were lost (see this pattern of religious monstrosities against science?). It took us another 1000+ years to rediscover the science and facts: such as the world was NOT flat, but spherical (Eratosthenes in 255 BC measured circumference of the Earth to a 3% degree of error, invented an astronomical instrument that determined celestial positions), that the stars in the sky were just like our suns but really far away, and all the mathematical, geological, and astronomical advancements. These are but a tiny fraction of the discoveries that were lost, destroyed and books burned by religious irrationality, where it is estimated only 1% of all the scrolls in the great library of ancient Alexandria ALONE has survived the burnings and destruction. Who knows where we would be today, if we weren't held back by the thousands of years of religious ignoramuses? Thank god (pun intended) we became a secular society, let's just hope we stay this way.

You're still missing it.

Anyway, there are good and bad points about everything. If you want to dwell on the negative, then all you'll see is negative.

Secular organization? Like Scientology, LOL?

"Do onto others as others onto you" is the wrong term. Which still shows you didnt do your homework. You preach science, but your argument is grade school level. How can you have these heavy opinions without knowing about what you are talking about?

Its "Do to others as you would have them do to you." Which means to treat people the way you want them to treat you. And its totally reverent. I've lived my whole life this way, and it has always held true. If you want respect, you have to treat people with respect. Its simple common sense. Everyone knows this.

Save the reply, I'm not debating this anymore.

Last edited by Tech_Junkie; 03-05-2012 at 04:13 PM. Reason: added quote
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:48 PM #2307
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The Jerusalem Syndrome: Why Some Religious Tourists Believe They Are the Messiah

A little fuel for the fire

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Old 03-05-2012, 06:37 PM #2308
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech_Junkie View Post
You're still missing it.

Anyway, there are good and bad points about everything. If you want to dwell on the negative, then all you'll see is negative.

Secular organization? Like Scientology, LOL?

"Do onto others as others onto you" is the wrong term. Which still shows you didnt do your homework. You preach science, but your argument is grade school level. How can you have these heavy opinions without knowing about what you are talking about?

Its "Do to others as you would have them do to you." Which means to treat people the way you want them to treat you. And its totally reverent. I've lived my whole life this way, and it has always held true. If you want respect, you have to treat people with respect. Its simple common sense. Everyone knows this.

Save the reply, I'm not debating this anymore.
I'm not dwelling on the negative. Religion is unfavourable because there are better ways out there. And secular organizations will always be a better solution. Why? because we actually care about rational thought and sound, moral judgment based on evidence-based approach. <-- not what Scientology is based on at all. Unlike religion, who believes it's absolute and will not change their mind, even in the face of evidence. They're irrational, basing their beliefs on thousand-year old scribbles of half-literate, highly immoral men. I mean, if you have to show your willingness to kill your son to prove your loyalty to god (Abraham & his son), i think that is just absolutely monstrous thinking.

Hey by saying Scientology is secular you show you have not a clue about the religion! They're exempted under US religious tax law as an official religion! They believe in an afterlife!!! In a god!! in a soul (they call it thetans)! They pretend to be "scientific" but they believe in pure pseudo-science, based on no evidence, but on Science-fiction writings of L Ron Hubbard! So no, they're not secular one bit. A state based on Einstein & Jefferson's values are what I call secular.

And like I said before, "do unto others as others unto you" does not work in many cases as I mentioned in my post above: when you are confronted with someone like Charles Manson. A proper value works in all scenarios, not just in ideal scenarios.

Anyway, it's clear we won't come to a consensus on this so we'll just leave it at that.

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Old 03-05-2012, 08:17 PM #2309
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Did it ever occur to anyone that physics, math, ect, were creations of a higher power?
Based on what evidence? What would you say to someone that said "Did it ever occur to anyone that fairies are responsible for things going missing around your house?"

Why do you believe physics was created by a higher power?

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Are people's egos so out of control that they think what their minds create, and understand are absolute?
You might be misunderstanding the scientific method.

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we pretend to be omnipotent
I think you're confusing omnipotent with omniscient. Either way, You'll have a hard time finding someone that believes we are either of the above

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We dont understand it, so we say it doesn't exists. This doesn't sound very scientific to me.
It's more like "there is no evidence for X, therefore I do not believe in X"

I'll bring you back to fairies. My personal train of thought is "there is no evidence for fairies, therefore I do not believe in fairies." It is NOT: "I don't understand fairies, so fairies do not exist."

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Secular organization? Like Scientology, LOL?
lolwut? I think you've misunderstood either secularism or Scientology.

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The science you're so proud of isn't made to deal with supernatural stuff.
Science removes the need for a supernatural explanation. We live in the natural world, so guessing (and that's what you do, make no mistake) about any supernatural world isn't doing any good.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:50 PM #2310
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



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Old 03-06-2012, 06:13 AM #2311
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Based on what evidence? What would you say to someone that said "Did it ever occur to anyone that fairies are responsible for things going missing around your house?"

Why do you believe physics was created by a higher power?



You might be misunderstanding the scientific method.



I think you're confusing omnipotent with omniscient. Either way, You'll have a hard time finding someone that believes we are either of the above



It's more like "there is no evidence for X, therefore I do not believe in X"

I'll bring you back to fairies. My personal train of thought is "there is no evidence for fairies, therefore I do not believe in fairies." It is NOT: "I don't understand fairies, so fairies do not exist."



lolwut? I think you've misunderstood either secularism or Scientology.



Science removes the need for a supernatural explanation. We live in the natural world, so guessing (and that's what you do, make no mistake) about any supernatural world isn't doing any good.
Such a concise answer I never would be able to replicate. But you read my mind. Well, not really, we just happen to share the same, rational, evidence-based thinking.

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Old 03-06-2012, 10:01 AM #2312
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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To say science can't explain the supernatural is nonsense.
If science could explain it it wouldn't supernatural. You contradict yourself.
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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
Science does not only exist in the classroom, or in our "physical realm" as you put it.
I did not say that.

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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
Science exists intrinsically in abstract thought, in mathematics, of concepts we cannot even begin to imagine.
Science is in principle experimental, fancy theories can't be proven, they're only usefull to predict the outcome of an experiment. Even the "law" of conservation of energy is just from what is seen by experiment, in the theory it's an assumption.
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ie. Math can explain multiple dimensions above ours (and religious people even have the guts to use this with their God of the Gaps argument).
That's just impossible to take seriously. MAth are just calculation, math doesn't explain a single thing. A 4d matrix isn't God, I know that from experience. Math are just numbers, logic, that kind of things. It doesn't explain why our world is 3d and not 2d, let alone explain God (or anything for that matter).
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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
Secondly, the theist God is suppose to work with our physical realm, in fact Christians believe he can interact and communicate with humans, even directly intervene through the occasional "miracle". After all, he created the physical realm, why can't he interact with it? Anyway, we don't necesarily need to detect the supernatural realm, but rather it is the interaction between the supernatural and the physical that we can detect.
True, but the moment that happens science tries to find an explanation without God, that is my whole point. Science can't find an explanation for this. Science can't explain a lot of things, whether they are from God or not, so unexplainable things can also be just undiscovered. So no conclusion can be drawn here from science. However TJ's point still stands.

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In the same methodology, we didn't know blackholes existed, until we realised how it interacted with the light around it--it curves the light. However, there is no such evidence, ever to be found in the entire history of mankind.
Black holes fit within the framework of science, God doesn't. As my point stated.

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Believe it without evidence if you want, if it makes you happy, then knock yourself out.
You're the one living in assumptions. First you assume I have no evidence. Second you assume science has evidence of something it simply cannot explain. Even with perfect science (humans are imperfect, first problem here) science is limited to the observable that can be explained within it's framework, and humanity apparently decided God doesn't fit in there. People who thing different are suddenly wrong without evidence (!) because they're "belief" in science doesn't want a God. You can claim "there's no evidence of the existence of God" but then you're just looking with a specific set of tool, that is science. If you're too ignorant to look outside of your own dogma so be it, your selfproclaimed enlightment is just another pitfall.

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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
But I, and as well as many others, need evidence.
Like I don't. Really you claim to have the truth but then offend me by claiming your assumption of me requirnign o evidence is correct. Like you know. I study applied physics at the university here, I damn well require evidence before I believe anything. So shove that argument up your *** because it's not for me.

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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
Just don't bring down the intellectual paradise we have today as religious people constantly do in the past: in ancient Alexandria over 2000 years ago and in Baghdad, once the intellectual capital of the world during the Islamic Golden Age, and again in Europe during the Dark Ages, where centuries of discoveries were lost (see this pattern of religious monstrosities against science?). It took us another 1000+ years to rediscover the science and facts: such as the world was NOT flat, but spherical (Eratosthenes in 255 BC measured circumference of the Earth to a 3% degree of error, invented an astronomical instrument that determined celestial positions), that the stars in the sky were just like our suns but really far away, and all the mathematical, geological, and astronomical advancements. These are but a tiny fraction of the discoveries that were lost, destroyed and books burned by religious irrationality, where it is estimated only 1% of all the scrolls in the great library of ancient Alexandria ALONE has survived the burnings and destruction. Who knows where we would be today, if we weren't held back by the thousands of years of religious ignoramuses? Thank god (pun intended) we became a secular society, let's just hope we stay this way.
All that rant just to blame me for that? Really, if you're the example of the new "scientific" generation than humanity has fallen deeply. Just to be clear: religions are done by humans, just liek goverments get corrupted religion hasn't got a clean track record. that doesn't mean the principle of a goverment is wrong, although they can misbehave. It's not God doing that, it's his fanclub you're talking about, the examples you mention are actually more like hooligans, abusing something for their own sake.

Science has made people who don't know enough about it stupid, ignorant and gullible.

Small note: I'm here for the fun of the argument
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:38 AM #2313
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Bluefan View Post
If science could explain it it wouldn't supernatural. You contradict yourself.
Science has explained hundreds of "supernatural" things, and today they are not supernatural anymore. Again, I stick to my point that science can explain the interaction between the supernatural and the natural world, after all, god is supposed to be able to intervene in this world. This intervening, we can detect.

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That's just impossible to take seriously. MAth are just calculation, math doesn't explain a single thing. A 4d matrix isn't God, I know that from experience. Math are just numbers, logic, that kind of things. It doesn't explain why our world is 3d and not 2d, let alone explain God (or anything for that matter).
Math has explained why our world we perceive is 3d. But Einstein's math has also explained why it might not be. Scientists today are on the verge to discovering that perhaps the world we live in is actually a projection of 3D, but is only 2D.

Here's the proof: when something falls into a black hole, scientists used to think it disappeared and would never be found again. But that's no longer true. Einstein's equations actually predict that when something falls into a black hole, the 3D-version disappears, but a copy is made, a 2D-version is replicated and spread out across the surface of a black hole. By Einstein's equations, we can also re-create the 3D-object from the 2D-information version. By this same theory, perhaps our entire universe is none but a projection of 3D, that the surface of our universe holds the 2D-version of everything that exists within it. And that it might be possible to re-create things from this information. This is a very very new discovery, watch NOVA's What is Space, to see for yourself.

Yes, you're right, all we have are theories. Only thing is that these theories have given us everything we have as luxury today. EVERYTHING: computers, cars, television, internet, planes, buildings, lasers, satellites, GPS, etc. etc. And all these things WORK. So yes, they're theories, but they work. Besides what the hell has religion given us? Destruction... infanticide... irrationality... racism... slavery... etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Bluefan View Post
You're the one living in assumptions. First you assume I have no evidence. Second you assume science has evidence of something it simply cannot explain. Even with perfect science (humans are imperfect, first problem here) science is limited to the observable that can be explained within it's framework, and humanity apparently decided God doesn't fit in there. People who thing different are suddenly wrong without evidence (!) because they're "belief" in science doesn't want a God. You can claim "there's no evidence of the existence of God" but then you're just looking with a specific set of tool, that is science. If you're too ignorant to look outside of your own dogma so be it, your selfproclaimed enlightment is just another pitfall.
You seem to have a misconception of science confined to our little physical world as you call it. But you fail to understand there is no such thing as supernatural, this word is made up. 99% of "supernatural" phenomena is no longer supernatural, why? Because science explained it. Science can also explain how multi-cellular life started, directly contradicting the bible account of creation. Science discovered the age of this world, and its observable universe, again contradicting the biblical account. These are all but a few things religion was horribly wrong on. And you still stick to this infantile belief, it's sad really. So no I disagree. Science can explain everything, except morals and values. Science IS the study of everything. It is your own mind restricting the notion of what science can do my friend.

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Old 03-07-2012, 03:28 AM #2314
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

How does one allocate something to the supernatural world anyway? To say "I can't explain it, so it must be supernatural" is actually a contradiction. That is saying "I can't explain it, so I can explain it."

The unexplained is just that: unexplained. Nothing more.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:02 PM #2315
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
Science has explained hundreds of "supernatural" things, and today they are not supernatural anymore. Again, I stick to my point that science can explain the interaction between the supernatural and the natural world, after all, god is supposed to be able to intervene in this world. This intervening, we can detect.



Math has explained why our world we perceive is 3d. But Einstein's math has also explained why it might not be. Scientists today are on the verge to discovering that perhaps the world we live in is actually a projection of 3D, but is only 2D.

Here's the proof: when something falls into a black hole, scientists used to think it disappeared and would never be found again. But that's no longer true. Einstein's equations actually predict that when something falls into a black hole, the 3D-version disappears, but a copy is made, a 2D-version is replicated and spread out across the surface of a black hole. By Einstein's equations, we can also re-create the 3D-object from the 2D-information version. By this same theory, perhaps our entire universe is none but a projection of 3D, that the surface of our universe holds the 2D-version of everything that exists within it. And that it might be possible to re-create things from this information. This is a very very new discovery, watch NOVA's What is Space, to see for yourself.

Yes, you're right, all we have are theories. Only thing is that these theories have given us everything we have as luxury today. EVERYTHING: computers, cars, television, internet, planes, buildings, lasers, satellites, GPS, etc. etc. And all these things WORK. So yes, they're theories, but they work. Besides what the hell has religion given us? Destruction... infanticide... irrationality... racism... slavery... etc. etc.



You seem to have a misconception of science confined to our little physical world as you call it. But you fail to understand there is no such thing as supernatural, this word is made up. 99% of "supernatural" phenomena is no longer supernatural, why? Because science explained it. Science can also explain how multi-cellular life started, directly contradicting the bible account of creation. Science discovered the age of this world, and its observable universe, again contradicting the biblical account. These are all but a few things religion was horribly wrong on. And you still stick to this infantile belief, it's sad really. So no I disagree. Science can explain everything, except morals and values. Science IS the study of everything. It is your own mind restricting the notion of what science can do my friend.
Wow you really have a fantasy view of science, please tell more, it's fascinating. I know Einstein's math, it describes relativity. It doesn't explain. I've calculated what relativistic effects take place in a black hole. That 2D world is nonsense and that's not my opinion, it's that of professors teaching this stuff.

To be honest your beliefs (I can't call that science) are far more infantile. If someone told you the earth was scientifically proven to be pyramid shaped you'd believe it.

Science has made people who don't know enough about it stupid, ignorant and gullible. And if I may add stubborn and selfrighteous. I didn't mention my specific religion, so please check your assumptions.

Again: I'm in this for the fun, no hard feelings.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:57 PM #2316
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Bluefan View Post
Wow you really have a fantasy view of science, please tell more, it's fascinating. I know Einstein's math, it describes relativity. It doesn't explain. I've calculated what relativistic effects take place in a black hole. That 2D world is nonsense and that's not my opinion, it's that of professors teaching this stuff.

To be honest your beliefs (I can't call that science) are far more infantile. If someone told you the earth was scientifically proven to be pyramid shaped you'd believe it.

Science has made people who don't know enough about it stupid, ignorant and gullible. And if I may add stubborn and selfrighteous. I didn't mention my specific religion, so please check your assumptions.

Again: I'm in this for the fun, no hard feelings.
I'm no physicist but that video I showed you, gives you an idea of what I'm talking about It's the new science physicists are working on today. So before you criticize me, watch it yourself.

Also, science can explain how life started: Abiogenesis
How complex life formed: Evolution & Natural Selection
No need to invoke the supernatural here.

And to believe in any religion, especially a monotheistic one, is to believe something with no evidence.

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Old 03-07-2012, 10:43 PM #2317
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
... It's the new science physicists are working on today. ...
Absolute bullshit, no kidding here. Don't believe everything you see or read. I daily work at the university here, there is no such thing as "the new science", maybe only in some dumb popular news website. Go put your trust in that if you want.
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Originally Posted by Ryanrenesis View Post
...And to believe in any religion, especially a monotheistic one, is to believe something with no evidence...
Where's your evidence for that statement?
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Old 03-08-2012, 02:00 AM #2318
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

^The very definition of faith.
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Old 03-08-2012, 05:50 AM #2319
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Many think of hell as a place where "souls burn for eternity". But I've heard many theologians argue that the "fire, flames and smoke" mentioned in the Bible are figurative terms for describing the "agony" that takes place

Its interesting to say the least, but its not ultimately important to argue over. The only thing I can say is that there is eternal separation.
This is a great point. Too much the bible is taken literally.
And, honestly, I would find that a life on (or off) earth without feeling love would be a "hell" of sorts. Not being able to feel compassion for plants, rocks and animals or recognize the evils of Hilter or Bin lamen wouldn't be a life that teaches.
(Note: cancer and AIDS are there to remind us how lucky we are [in this moment] to not be suffering).

Also, +rep for the link to Nicomachean Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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wanna know the truth? really?

take about 100mg dmt, vaporize, and inhale the vapor. hold it in now..........
get back to me in 30 minutes, we'll talk.
Please do not attempt without researching here
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Originally Posted by Woodofcville View Post
I've heard lots of people mention DMT lately.. What does it do to you?
Dimethyltryptamine is a strong psychoactive chemical that is still being studied. It has been determined that humans naturally produce it in the brain while dreaming.
The chemical (when ingested) typically pulls the user into a conscious dream state, and depending on the dose (and more importantly; the emotional disposition of the user) can bring either an interesting learning experience, or an extremely terrifying journey complete with demons or "evil elves" trying to distract you.
Irregardless of the objective journey that is experienced; one thing that is consistent are the profound truths that the universe seemingly "reveals to you" during the experience. Truths about the universe that are so complex that they are usually ineffable.
A DMT trip is not as fun as it sounds. Many people are completely changed after the experience. Research here: Erowid DMT (Dimethyltryptamine) Vault before any experimentation, please.
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Originally Posted by Tech_Junkie View Post

Man's perception, and understanding are chronically flawed. Do you really believe that the small ball of grey matter in your head can possibly comprehend the scope of whats going on in the universe, or beyond?
No. But we can formulate (and test) theories on how we perceive (in terms we can understand) the universe functions. Even then, we are only seeing a small fraction from a single vantage point.
I don't think there is one scientist out there (besides myself) who would dare purport to know all truths in the universe.


And if mankind is flawed, how can they possibly have the ego to say for a fact a higher power does not exist when the proof is right in front of them?
Ah. I think you may be a bit confused.
Science does not disprove the existence of God, it just can not prove it either. Conveniently, many of these scientists are atheists because they haven't been convinced one way or the other. So many publicly claim atheist, while I believe that most are agnostic.
In the same sense that quantum jumping, the law of attraction, or parallel universes (possible realities) can not be proven directly, does not mean that they don't exist.

The world we know, and universe are all governed by the same laws. There is a singular thread running though it all. There is where your evidence lies. ...
everything else that is living around you. It all moves in harmony, purpose, and peace. This is where the higher power resides. And you can feel it, and interact with it. And its always there.
Unfortunately. Only those with subjective experience in the matter can perceive (feel / interact) with it.
ie: an individual must personally relate to their "God" in their terms. Nobody can impart their personal "experience" directly to another to create this awareness.

Its sad that in many cases only when we are on the precipice of the end does clarity presents its self, and we reach out for a higher power to comfort us. True; it is very sad that some people only pray to God when they (or loved ones) are dying or in trouble.
For those that reject this, you die alone, with nothing in your heart but regret, and anger. Physics will give you no comfort in the end, and that is a fact.
In your opinion the individuals that reject God die with only regret in their hearts (also seems unnecessarily grim).
But in my reality, the point of outwardly expressed faith in God or peer recognition for weekly worship is not what s truly important I the end.
I believe that it is not important whether you even recognise or acknowlege the existence of a higher power, what is more important is whether you added or detracted from the amount of "love" in your local universe. (ie: lived a virtuous life)
I'm sure God doesn't give a fuck if you believe in him/her/ IT, just that you lived a productive (karmatically positive) life.
The cake is not a lie.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:05 AM #2320
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I think this is the first time I have posted here, I see it's like 93 pages long so I figured it was time I checked in.

My religion, NO HATING.........
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