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Old 02-28-2012, 02:08 AM #2273
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Do animals act? No. Animals react. They react in response to their surroundings, their instincts, and all that they know to do.

People are the only things than act. We can choose to ignore our passions, emotions, instincts, and surroundings. We're quite a different animal if I ever saw one. We are the only things on Earth that can even think and consider such things.
You are quite wrong here.

Take a look at cats for example. They not only react but the deliberately (and maliciously sometimes) act out when they feel like it.

Possums 'play dead' which is a reaction to danger but it's also called acting.

Chimps, gorillas and other monkeys act and imitate humans. Tell me how that is a reaction?

Just because we can communicate what we are thinking and why we do things doesn't mean we are the only thing on Earth that can think and consider.

By this statement alone you are contradicting yourself. If you think all animals are equal, why are you putting humans on top?

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:17 AM #2274
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

atheist i have to go on a rant here sorry if easily offended DO NOT READ

why did god give my grandma terminal cancer

why did god kill my other with breast cancer and make her live a miserable 5 years bed ridden and later in her years give her brain cancer so she wasnt able to speak to us?

why did god let let hitler do what he did

why is there so much poverty

why is god letting women get raped families slaughtered and children starve to death every day?

why can god not provide africa with clean water?

and im sick of the its just a "test"

fuck that fuck that with a 2 edged knife if thats really true and god is just testing us he is a grade a 100% douche bag and i dont wanna go to heaven and live with a asshole like that.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:29 AM #2275
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

bennett - If god is omnipotent why doesn't he cure disease? In fact, why did he create disease in the first place? to make us suffer?

If he is omnipresent why doesn't he stop child molesters? To teach the kid a lesson?

Shows how much god really 'loves his children'

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:35 AM #2276
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Lase View Post
bennett - If god is omnipotent why doesn't he cure disease? In fact, why did he create disease in the first place? to make us suffer?

If he is omnipresent why doesn't he stop child molesters? To teach the kid a lesson?

Shows how much god really 'loves his children'

Lase
because that would make WAAAAAYYY too much sense

or as spock would say "that would be too logical"
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:52 AM #2277
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Cyparagon and Meatball know how to have a good discussion, unlike many others...

Lots of preachers here, independent of their (lack of) religion. The right to have your own opinions seems to be replaced with the right to be an asshole.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:07 PM #2278
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

sorry if i seemed like a asshole with my past 2 posts. its just hard talking on the phone with my grandma who has joined and started hospice and you can hear the pain in her voice. it just angers me when people talk of their great god especially the phrase "god is good". now dont get me wrong every one must die but do they have to do it in torture ?
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:21 PM #2279
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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sorry if i seemed like a asshole with my past 2 posts. its just hard talking on the phone with my grandma who has joined and started hospice and you can hear the pain in her voice. it just angers me when people talk of their great god especially the phrase "god is good". now dont get me wrong every one must die but do they have to do it in torture ?
He's usually too busy at his main job, which is apparently giving African infants AIDS. He's doing a bang up job with that one

Peace,
dave
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:31 PM #2280
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Bluefan View Post
....
The right to have your own opinions seems to be replaced with the right to be an asshole.
Are you sure they are different things ? .....

I mean ..... looking at our last news and programs on TV (both religiuos and non religious, i have to admit ), i can't see too much differences, in the two things

But, maybe is just cause i don't work in the show business field, so i'm not used in discriminating them precisely, maybe .....

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Old 02-28-2012, 02:39 PM #2281
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Are you sure they are different things ? .....

I mean ..... looking at our last news and programs on TV (both religiuos and non religious, i have to admit ), i can't see too much differences, in the two things

But, maybe is just cause i don't work in the show business field, so i'm not used in discriminating them precisely, maybe .....

It is a simple rule

If it does NOT offend or anger me, then it is just your opinion

If it DOES offend or anger me, then you are being an asshole

Peace,
dave
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:51 PM #2282
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
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It is a simple rule

If it does NOT offend or anger me, then it is just your opinion

If it DOES offend or anger me, then you are being an asshole

Peace,
dave
Well ..... said in this way, it make sense, after all .....

(oh, wait ..... then also means all our TV peoples are assholes, cause more or less, all them offend or anger me, in a way or in another ..... )
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:22 PM #2283
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The ones that can be justifiably taken away are privileges. But if its justified, then by who's line of justice?
Precisely. Since morality isn't universal, neither are rights.

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No, I wouldn't say it should be shut down. But instead why would we give the same health care to those who are habitually lazy?
Why should lazy people get access to streets, police protection, or schools? Healthcare is just as important if not more so than other publicly funded ideas. I, for one, don't consider laziness to be worthy of a death sentence.

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READ that passage. Its quite a bit different than the Ten Commandment's style of "Thou Shall not.."
I have. It has a different tone, but it is still ultimately concerned with behavior. "do everything without grumbling or arguing" for example.

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It the difference between, "Should we baptize babies? Or only adults?", "Which translation we we prefer?", "What are the roles of men and woman in the church?"
And god can't (won't?) make that clear? Those seem like pretty big issues to me.

What about non-Christians. What does god have in store for them?
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:33 AM #2284
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Mine will appear in green

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Please see my responses below in Orange.

What personal attacks? I call them as I see them, and I can clearly see that you do not have the capacity for critical thinking as all of your "supporting arguments" are derived from a book of stories written by others.

Actually, most of my man vs animal arguments can be found in an introductory philosophy class from most universities.


Sir, I live in a world of reality not a world of "clouded illusion" such as yourself.


... said the other man from over the internet.


All living bodies are born, consume, create and die. That's the definition of life. But isn't a person so much more than that?
Negative. Human's just maintain their "illusion" of superiority. In reality Humans are animals, just a bit more intelligent.
A bit more? Is that not "a bit" of an understatement?

Do animals wear clothes? Is intelligence really the only thing something needs to find a need to wear clothes? Why?
Some animals wear clothes (of a sort), yes. Hermit Crabs are the first thing that came to mind, but I am sure there are more. image They even get better fitting outfits when they "grow out" of their old clothes.
Your bible tells us that we wear clothes because we are "ashamed" because some Snake made a dude (Adam) eat an apple (knowledge-giving apple, no less) [via eve's instigation] or some bullshit like that, right?
I tend to think that we wear clothes to keep us comfortable (temperature depending).
These guys don't. Link

Not quite on track here. Think of it. Why do people wear clothes? Not why do you wear clothes, but why does man in general? (General means there are certainly exceptions to an otherwise obvious conclusion)


Why is it unlawful to kill a person, but not unlawful to squish a bug? According to my "personal" morals, I do not kill any bug or animal unless it attacks me first, so I am acting in self-defense.
What gives your life precedence over the life of an insect?
Nothing. The Amoeba, the Yak, the bacteria and I are all equals.
Does your superior brain entitle you to the right to squish the insect because it might be annoying? No. (see above answer)
Why would you try and tear someone apart, who values human life over the life of an insect - or even a dog, cat, horse or whale? huh? I don't really get this question.

I did not ask for your personal morals. Those could not interest me any less. I asked about U.S. political law. Your morals are obviously not the same thing.

Do animals act? No. Animals react. They react in response to their surroundings, their instincts, and all that they know to do.
So do Humans. There is no difference.

People are the only things that act. (Shakespeare?)
We can choose to ignore our passions, emotions, instincts, and surroundings. We're quite a different animal if I ever saw one. We are the only things on Earth that can even think and consider such things.
Um, sorry to break it to you, but Chimpanzees, Dolphins and even Elephants have the capacity to ignore their instincts and "play" or "experiment" within their environment.

Why do you never see a dog decide to all of a sudden act like something else... like a cat? Experimentation is not the same as acting. Acting, would be to choose not to act in accordance with instinct. To be tempted and pressured by passions (like ***) and then make a moral decision to either indulge or not indulge. This would be the decision made in spite of the variables such as convenience, urges to procreate, or instinct to. You, as a person considers more than that, based on what you know is right and wrong.

So you don't even read my posts?
Actually, I start to read your religious rhetoric, but can not finish as it is the same exact shit that 99% of the other bible-thumpers say. So I feel it is a waste of my time.
Then get off the board if you have nothing constructive to add to Cyparagon's points. Yes sir,... As you wish,... I will get off the board immediately because you "command" me to.

Next time, please don't respond unless you read the entire post. Cyparagon has the courtesy to do at least that and I try to do the same. Don't be "cherry picking" what you want to argue and not argue about.

Oh, but that would require you to think for yourself.
Hey Meatball, do you think anyone thinks for me? Have you ever even heard of someone who feels compassion for all living things. And by the way,.... I deeply feel that all things in the universe (from oxygen molecules, to machines, to Stars) have an "essence" that could be considered "life". I even feel compassion for the rock that I split open to examine the internal crystalline structure for my profession (Geology).

Do you have Osama Bin Laden accountable for his actions? Or are they excusable and thus not punishable by anyone since he is just some animal that reacts to his environment? Are the parts and pieces that make up Mr. Laden something to feel compassion for? I hope you can learn as I have that "feeling" things is not worth much in its own right. You must feel them in the right time towards the right people (rocks?), for the right reasons, and in the right amount. Read Nicomachean Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
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You are quite wrong here.

Ok..

Take a look at cats for example. They not only react but the deliberately (and maliciously sometimes) act out when they feel like it.

Possums 'play dead' which is a reaction to danger but it's also called acting.

Chimps, gorillas and other monkeys act and imitate humans. Tell me how that is a reaction?

How are any of these things outside of what you might expect one animal or another to do? I'm sure monkeys can imitate other things as well. But do any of these animals examine the situation of their lives objectively? So cats are fickle and malicious. That's not new. Do you know of a cat that will selflessly care for an anthill because it knows it is the right thing to do? You will find people that do such things, whether it is right wrong, or just silly.

Just because we can communicate what we are thinking and why we do things doesn't mean we are the only thing on Earth that can think and consider.

By this statement alone you are contradicting yourself. If you think all animals are equal, why are you putting humans on top?

Lase
Because I know it is the right thing to do.
In all seriousness, I believe there are plants with some traits, then animals above them with distinctly more traits in general, and then there are humans. (And I'm not talking about physical traits)

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Originally Posted by bennett326 View Post
atheist i have to go on a rant here sorry if easily offended DO NOT READ

why did god give my grandma terminal cancer

why did god kill my other with breast cancer and make her live a miserable 5 years bed ridden and later in her years give her brain cancer so she wasnt able to speak to us?

why did god let let hitler do what he did

why is there so much poverty

why is god letting women get raped families slaughtered and children starve to death every day?

why can god not provide africa with clean water?

and im sick of the its just a "test"

fuck that fuck that with a 2 edged knife if thats really true and god is just testing us he is a grade a 100% douche bag and i dont wanna go to heaven and live with a asshole like that.
You need a theodicy to consider these things objectively. Of course you will take bad things that happen around you and take them personally. Would you ask the same thing about a suffering family member of yours if they were someone more comparable to Hitler? This is not out of any disrespect to you, your family or your grandmother. But if you remember that Hitler was also a family member, and that perhaps people close to you also do terrible things, there seems to a point where all people appear to be the same.

This is a topic that theologians write entire books and commentaries about, so I will do what I can to answer your question by quoting William Dembski: "In allowing evil and then redeeming us from it, God is not an arsonist who starts a fire, lets things heat up for us, and then, at the last moment, steps in so that he can be the big hero. Nor is God a casual bystander, who sees a fire start spontaneously and then lets it get out of control so that he can be the big hero to rescue us.

We are the arsonists. We started the fire. God want to rescue us not only from the fire we started but also, and more importantly, from our disposition to start fires, that is, from our life of arson. But to be rescued from a life of arson requires that we know how destructive arson is. Fires always start out small. If God always instantly puts out the fires we start, we would never appreciate the damage fire can do.

We started a fire in consenting to evil. God permits this fire to rage. He grants this permission not so that he can be a big hero when he rescues us but so that we can rightly understand the human condition ad this come to our senses. In rescuing us by suffering on the Cross, God does end up being a hero. But that is not the point of his suffering. The point is to fix a broken relationship between God and humanity."

This is an incomplete answer for you. But I will ask you these questions in return:

Why is it that God has not (at this time) allowed cancer or aids into your life?

Why do you get to have clean water?

And, if Africans don't have clean water, is there really nothing you can do about it?

I agree. "Its a test" is a pretty lame, weak answer for most.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Precisely. Since morality isn't universal, neither are rights.
Alright. Cool. So then does that mean we have only idealized "equality" to guide us in our decisions made about what is just and what is not? Or is there more that justice is comprised of?

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Why should lazy people get access to streets, police protection, or schools? Healthcare is just as important if not more so than other publicly funded ideas. I, for one, don't consider laziness to be worthy of a death sentence.
Again, not a death sentence. I already mentioned that is would be the same healthcare that is the difference. So its not a difference of life and death, but rather of cost.

We already do this with insurance. Safe drivers who are middle aged pay much less for car insurance than does a 17 year old male in a red 5 speed coupe. So, then should a healthy man pay the same price for health care as does a lazy man?

Should apathetic American students pay the same price for high school, as should an eager and thankful Haitian student?

Should a criminal be provided with police protection for the same price as does a law abiding citizen?

Why would this only work with insurance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I have. It has a different tone, but it is still ultimately concerned with behavior. "do everything without grumbling or arguing" for example.
You're right. But are these commandments of the almighty God? Will these behaviors in Ephesians 2 send a person to heaven rather than hell? Of course not. Paul is urging the church in Ephesus to exhibit Christ-like behavior, to be "mini christs" - IE Christians. He is concerned with the image that Christians portray of Christ- that he is glorified through the actions of his followers.
So do I subscribe to Leviticus and Deuteronomy? No.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
And god can't (won't?) make that clear? Those seem like pretty big issues to me.
The thing is, they're not. Not when it comes to someone's salvation. Lots of it is concerned with church traditions. It doesn't matter what they seem like to you. Apparently, you're not a part of the church.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
What about non-Christians. What does god have in store for them?
Separation from Him. They ARE several things God cannot do. Lying and existing in the presence of evil are two of those things. Many think of hell as a place where "souls burn for eternity". But I've heard many theologians argue that the "fire, flames and smoke" mentioned in the Bible are figurative terms for describing the "agony" that takes place. They would say that there is actually no fire in hell. This is why I never believe those people's stories of near death experiences. They all portray a similar image, but its an image which could likely be the projection of one's expectations.

I tend to think of hell as akin to something more like the imagery presented in "The Great Divorce". There's a quick plot summary here: The Great Divorce - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Its portrays people in hell as not even realizing they are in 'hell'.

Its interesting to say the least, but its not ultimately important to argue over. The only thing I can say is that there is eternal separation.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:55 AM #2285
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
You need a theodicy to consider these things objectively. Of course you will take bad things that happen around you and take them personally. Would you ask the same thing about a suffering family member of yours if they were someone more comparable to Hitler? This is not out of any disrespect to you, your family or your grandmother. But if you remember that Hitler was also a family member, and that perhaps people close to you also do terrible things, there seems to a point where all people appear to be the same.

This is a topic that theologians write entire books and commentaries about, so I will do what I can to answer your question by quoting William Dembski: "In allowing evil and then redeeming us from it, God is not an arsonist who starts a fire, lets things heat up for us, and then, at the last moment, steps in so that he can be the big hero. Nor is God a casual bystander, who sees a fire start spontaneously and then lets it get out of control so that he can be the big hero to rescue us.

We are the arsonists. We started the fire. God want to rescue us not only from the fire we started but also, and more importantly, from our disposition to start fires, that is, from our life of arson. But to be rescued from a life of arson requires that we know how destructive arson is. Fires always start out small. If God always instantly puts out the fires we start, we would never appreciate the damage fire can do.

We started a fire in consenting to evil. God permits this fire to rage. He grants this permission not so that he can be a big hero when he rescues us but so that we can rightly understand the human condition ad this come to our senses. In rescuing us by suffering on the Cross, God does end up being a hero. But that is not the point of his suffering. The point is to fix a broken relationship between God and humanity."

This is an incomplete answer for you. But I will ask you these questions in return:

Why is it that God has not (at this time) allowed cancer or aids into your life?

Why do you get to have clean water?

And, if Africans don't have clean water, is there really nothing you can do about it?

I agree. "Its a test" is a pretty lame, weak answer for most.


the orange i am completly lost on can you re-word it for me.. are you saying what if hitler was part of my family? or what if my family was impacted by what the thing commited?

and while i enjoyed reading the red

i have a few replies:

did god stop the holocaust? no soldiers did.

and at what extent does he have to let these fires burn? go google some pictures of the lampshades made of skin or the piles of dead women and children. your god let that happen

how many people has the devil killed?

if the devil punishes the wrong doers doesn't that make him good?

god promised he would never make another flood. but its ok to have genocide happen as i type. children given a death sentence when they are born? no hope for people who are deathly sick?

no here are the good questions

WHAT?!!?!? did that unborn African child do that he deserve a death sentence. what did his/her parents do?

what did those millions of innocent jews do? by letting the holocaust happen he killed the spirit he had is many many of his own people. and the holocaust is the reason as a JEWISHchild in elementary school there was no way god existed, because if he did and he killed the first people to recognize him as the one almighty god. well that atrocious
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:04 AM #2286
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by bennett326 View Post
the orange i am completly lost on can you re-word it for me.. are you saying what if hitler was part of my family? or what if my family was impacted by what the thing commited?

and while i enjoyed reading the red

i have a few replies:

did god stop the holocaust? no soldiers did.

and at what extent does he have to let these fires burn? go google some pictures of the lampshades made of skin or the piles of dead women and children. your god let that happen

how many people has the devil killed?

if the devil punishes the wrong doers doesn't that make him good?

god promised he would never make another flood. but its ok to have genocide happen as i type. children given a death sentence when they are born? no hope for people who are deathly sick?

no here are the good questions

WHAT?!!?!? did that unborn African child do that he deserve a death sentence. what did his/her parents do?

what did those millions of innocent jews do? by letting the holocaust happen he killed the spirit he had is many many of his own people. and the holocaust is the reason as a JEWISHchild in elementary school there was no way god existed, because if he did and he killed the first people to recognize him as the one almighty god. well that atrocious

Of course that's just in the bible.
However, there is no reason to believe that either of their personalities has shifted since then
They've been around since well before humans

Peace,
dave
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:54 PM #2287
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by bennett326 View Post
atheist i have to go on a rant here sorry if easily offended DO NOT READ ...
So essentially the "Why do bad things happen to good people?" question. There are actually many explanations to this problem of evil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
We are the arsonists. We started the fire.
If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were blaming mankind for his grandmother's cancer.

"Who told you that you are a sinner? Your church? But wait, don't fret! There's a magic cure, and your church just happens to have it!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
I agree. "Its a test" is a pretty lame, weak answer for most.
An omniscient being would know the outcome of a test without having to perform it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Safe drivers who are middle aged pay much less for car insurance than does a 17 year old male in a red 5 speed coupe.
I've always had a problem with that. It is one of the few remaining areas where ***ism is openly acceptable. Driving records equal, I pay much more than a married woman simply because of my gender.

You could argue from an actuarial standpoint of "you're at higher risk." Perhaps, but black men are statistically more likely to go to prison than college. Is that an excuse for racial profiling by police?

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Why would this only work with insurance?
By what measure would you judge laziness? By what measure would you judge school performance? Should we just kick all the students with GPAs below 2.0 out of school?

It seems like your answer is more evaluation and testing by the government. This costs money... probably more than giving everyone similar benefits. Additionally, I'm pretty sure it would make people angry to be evaluated, judged, and ultimately charged based on their personal habits of diet, exercise etc. That is no no concern of the government. This is supposed to be a free country, but the list of freedoms keeps getting shorter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Many think of hell as a place where "souls burn for eternity". But I've heard many theologians argue that the "fire, flames and smoke" mentioned in the Bible are figurative terms for describing the "agony" that takes place.
An idea from a video I posted earlier: Even the worst human can only commit finite crimes. Punishing them for eternity is mathematically infinitely worse that "eye for an eye."

"Only an unjust god would hide his presence from people, then leave them to suffer in hell for not believing. The bible tells us that the disciple Thomas didn't believe in Jesus' resurrection. It also says that he was given proof. Why isn't the same proof available to me? I didn't choose to be born into a world where there would be no convincing evidence of god. And since it's no more within my choice to believe in gods than it is to believe in winged horses, If there IS an all-knowing all-powerful god and I'm bound for hell, it would mean that that god allowed my creation, knowing that hell would be my final destiny.

In other words, I was created already doomed."
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:31 PM #2288
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by daguin View Post

Of course that's just in the bible.
However, there is no reason to believe that either of their personalities has shifted since then
They've been around since well before humans

Peace,
dave
Uhm ..... i'm starting to understand why some ancient religions call Satan "the brother of God" .....
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