Old 02-21-2012, 07:44 PM #2257
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Does acting in ignorance excuse a "culture" from what universally does hurt others?
Unless it directly effects me, I'm inclined to say yes. It's not moral according to my beliefs, but if some pigmies want to eat each other on the other side of the world, it is no business of mine. It won't do much good to impose on their culture because they will resist you every step of the way and some will die to protect their culture and/or religion. YOU try going to Saudi Arabia and telling them women deserve equal status to men. Let me know how that goes for you

What if a activist group came to the US and told us that systemic mutilation of the genitalia of baby boys was immoral? There would be quite a lot of resistance. We like our genital mutilation, moral or not.

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The underwear bomber was acting by "The will of God", killing in God's name. Does that actually say anything about his God?
Well, what can you say about any god? None of it can be substantiated. Maybe he's right. You can argue your invisible friend is better than his invisible friend, but I'd like to see you try and prove it.

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Should one culture have to avoid interaction with another culture...Or is it wrong for one culture to "project" a subjective evil onto another one?
It is possible to interact without imposing your morality on others. That can be difficult to do when people read things like this in their most sacred of texts.

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If we're all human, then why the different moral rulers?
I would argue we have similar moralities and it is because of religion that we see most of the differences that we do. When you are acting according to the wishes of your "higher power," it can absolve you of guilt and cause you to do horrendous things.


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Last edited by Cyparagon; 02-21-2012 at 11:26 PM. Reason: added point and correction
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:42 PM #2258
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hey Cyparagon, did you know that you're awesome?
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Old 02-22-2012, 12:25 AM #2259
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
So now we're also touching upon the subject of willful ignorance. Or our own attempts to rationalize our actions.

Ultimately, imo, ignorance is not a valid reason for allowing evil to persist.
Sure, so you would say that education, rather than religion is a viable method for removing evil done in ignorance? That's what I would argue.

Can a man be judged against a set ethics he has ultimately been unaware of?

Perhaps he can in some instances.

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Different thing is if you speak about "ethic", or, also better, about "personal ethic" ..... in my mind, ethic is that what * MY * conscience say that is right and wrong ..... as example, i can go out and shot in the head to the first person i don't like the hair color ..... i don't do this, not cause moral say that in this specific context it's a wrong thing, but cause MY ethic say that this is not a good thing to do, regardless the context.

Is, basically, the same error that is always done confusing, as example, "law" and "justice" ..... and other similar concepts .....
So, say that there is a culture out there, where that happens. People are killed for their hair color. Would it be wrong to go in and educate them away from their "conscience" ethics? Such a thing might be ok to them, but when is it actually the right thing to do? Would it be unethical for you to run through their streets with dyed hair, insisting that they have no right to shoot you?

I don't picture you running through the streets with green hair anyhow. I don't think you're the type of guy. :P

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Unless it directly effects me, I'm inclined to say yes. It's not moral according to my beliefs, but if some pigmies want to eat each other on the other side of the world, it is no business of mine. It won't do much good to impose on their culture because they will resist you every step of the way and some will die to protect their culture and/or religion. YOU try going to Saudi Arabia and telling them women deserve equal status to men. Let me know how that goes for you
So are they allowed to ignore Hilary Clinton when she goes over there to work foreign affairs? Or should they lend her an open ear? Which is "right"?

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Well, what can you say about any god? None of it can be substantiated. Maybe he's right. You can argue your invisible friend is better than his invisible friend, but I'd like to see you try and prove it.
I could. And you would. But would an open ear be lent to me? Am I supposedly that idiotic?

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It is possible to interact without imposing your morality on others. That can be difficult to do when people read things like this in their most sacred of texts.
I want to do trade with the Pygmies that chop off foreigners' heads for amusement. I might be an idiot, but do I have the right to interact with them without their morality being swung across my neck?

Context Please: Book of Deuteronomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(I think you'll find it difficult to find an underwear bomber/terrorist/***ist/cannibal that actually understands that passage, that text, and that scripture) And most sacred of texts? Really? What does that even mean? Where did you pull that out of?

No text is more hotly defended than the Quran: US apologizes to Afghans for Quran burning - Yahoo! News
So, some muslims can burn Bibles and American flags whenever they want. But we as a country can't do the same without having to apologize. Who is right? Why?

The people who actually read and study the Bible aren't the ones blowing stuff up, they're the people in other countries doing philanthropy (or hanging out on their butts in the U.S. complaining about everything and making a big scene).

You point out what some muslim guy thinks, and then point back to the Old Testament. Logical?

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I would argue we have similar moralities and it is because of religion that we see most of the differences that we do. When you are acting according to the wishes of your "higher power," it can absolve you of guilt and cause you to do horrendous things.
Are you speaking of Christians? Or anyone that call themselves a Christian?

Just think of Aristotle's definition of virtue which is to perform your function through the means of action, and to perform them with excellence.

So, what is a soldier's function? Are there any cultures where it is honorable to run from battle?

What is a student's function? Are there any cultures where is it ethical for a student to not study hard?

What about a teacher's function? A Police Officer's function? A Doctor's function?

Where on Earth is it honorable to act with vicious actions, and become a base existence?

So here's my argument:

Considering the functions of a neighbor, friend, family member, and a nation's citizen while also considering that 99% of the world population fits in 3/4 of those functions, should there be such a wide range of "moral compasses" on Earth? If everyone on Earth performed their function in each of these categories, how many moral directions would there be?

As many as there are today?

One?

Few?

More than there are today?

Good discussion, lets keep it up!
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:05 AM #2260
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
So are they allowed to ignore Hilary Clinton when she goes over there to work foreign affairs? Or should they lend her an open ear? Which is "right"?
According to whom?

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Can a man be judged against a set ethics he has ultimately been unaware of?
I immediately thought of:



If you honestly didn't know that stabbing someone would kill them, could you be found guilty of murder? Perhaps not. See mens rea. It also obviously depends on the jury and how the case is presented.

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I could... But would an open ear be lent to me? Am I supposedly that idiotic?
Don't get defensive. It's not about idiocy, it's about what can be known. Anything you claim to know about your god you cannot know for certain. That's pretty much what faith is defined as.

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I want to do trade with the Pygmies that chop off foreigners' heads for amusement. I might be an idiot, but do I have the right to interact with them without their morality being swung across my neck?
Again I'll ask according to whom? The final say from the standpoint of law would probably be who's soil you're on. I'd rather just leave it at: if you want to trade with people that are known to chop off heads, you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Context Please
I thought it was self-explanatory. If you want to read more, pick up a bible or extend the passage to whatever you like.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
And most sacred of texts? Really? What does that even mean?
What part of the phrase doesn't make sense? I'm talking about the bible. You don't think that accurately describes the bible?

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Who is right? Why?
If you're talking about the double standard, I would say we hold ourselves to a higher standard. We have freedom of religion in this country.

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You point out what some muslim guy thinks, and then point back to the Old Testament. Logical?
They were two different parts of my post. One was in reference to the underwear bomber, and one was in reference to imposing your morality on others. Keep up! I used an example you might find easier to relate to.

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Are you speaking of Christians?
The problem is when you pass off responsibility to your imaginary friend. This includes not just Christians, but people of all religions.

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Considering the functions of a neighbor, friend, family member, and a nation's citizen while also considering that 99% of the world population fits in 3/4 of those functions
You forgot infidels! We're all going to hell, aren't we? No matter what religion you choose, there are millions or perhaps billions of people that truly believe you will burn in eternal hellfire for your ways. Not everyone will categorize their neighbor as benignly as friend or family member.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:16 AM #2261
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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.....
So, say that there is a culture out there, where that happens. People are killed for their hair color. Would it be wrong to go in and educate them away from their "conscience" ethics? Such a thing might be ok to them, but when is it actually the right thing to do? Would it be unethical for you to run through their streets with dyed hair, insisting that they have no right to shoot you?

I don't picture you running through the streets with green hair anyhow. I don't think you're the type of guy. :P

.....
ROTFL

Sorry, i meant that i don't kill peoples at will, not cause a "moral" (or "law", or anything other external from me), say that this is wrong ..... i don't kill just cause MY OWN ethic, and MY OWN sense of justice, that depends from me and no other, say that this is wrong

About the green hairs, ..... uhm ..... naah, decisely not my preferred color, not on myself, at least (but, hey, who know, if i see them on a very beautiful girl, i can also start to like green hairs, after all ..... )
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:31 PM #2262
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
According to whom?
If you honestly didn't know that stabbing someone would kill them, could you be found guilty of murder? Perhaps not. See mens rea. It also obviously depends on the jury and how the case is presented.
True. Does that mean that stabbing someone out of ignorance is ok? Stabbing someone at all outside of surgury or self defense is universally harmful, so is it not universally wrong? Surely comparing these views shows that one of them is "more right" than the other.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Don't get defensive. It's not about idiocy, it's about what can be known. Anything you claim to know about your god you cannot know for certain. That's pretty much what faith is defined as.
Only to some extent. There are things I can have certainty of, because they define Him as "God" (the origin of the term) to begin with.

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Again I'll ask according to whom? The final say from the standpoint of law would probably be who's soil you're on. I'd rather just leave it at: if you want to trade with people that are known to chop off heads, you're an idiot.
True, but idiots still have natural liberties since those idiots are still people. Does man's Unalienable rights sound familiar?

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I thought it was self-explanatory. If you want to read more, pick up a bible or extend the passage to whatever you like.
I'm asking for the context from you. I know all about that passage, and because you don't, you've misused it, thinking its something that Christians are supposed to subscribe to. Christians have little interest in ancient Hebrew law.

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What part of the phrase doesn't make sense? I'm talking about the bible. You don't think that accurately describes the bible?
Muslim books, religious objects, small items, places, external goods are "sacred". I do not think that accurately describes the bible. Scripture is believed to exist on its own outside whatever is it printed on. The bible is only a collection of scripture thought to be most relevant and useful for those that seek and working knowledge, fear, and relationship with god.

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If you're talking about the double standard, I would say we hold ourselves to a higher standard. We have freedom of religion in this country.
So some standards are higher than others? Or only to us?

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
They were two different parts of my post. One was in reference to the underwear bomber, and one was in reference to imposing your morality on others. Keep up! I used an example you might find easier to relate to.
Oh. Sorry. You might find that I prefer to not be considered religious.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
The problem is when you pass off responsibility to your imaginary friend. This includes not just Christians, but people of all religions.
Question for a non believer: Why do you say imaginary "friend"? Is it supposed to be demeaning? Or do you see no significance in the position of a higher authority being "higher" and all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You forgot infidels! We're all going to hell, aren't we? No matter what religion you choose, there are millions or perhaps billions of people that truly believe you will burn in eternal hellfire for your ways. Not everyone will categorize their neighbor as benignly as friend or family member.
So then, is there a place where it is wrong to perform your function towards excellence?

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Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
ROTFL

Sorry, i meant that i don't kill peoples at will, not cause a "moral" (or "law", or anything other external from me), say that this is wrong ..... i don't kill just cause MY OWN ethic, and MY OWN sense of justice, that depends from me and no other, say that this is wrong

About the green hairs, ..... uhm ..... naah, decisely not my preferred color, not on myself, at least (but, hey, who know, if i see them on a very beautiful girl, i can also start to like green hairs, after all ..... )
So, are you just simply lucky to not be living in a place where the majority believes the opposite? Is it just by chance and odds that most "halfway normal" people find it wrong to kill?

What about pickles in her ears? Could that look grow on you as well? I prefer to see marshmallows in the nostrils.



Here's the thing: Surely you've seen this one by now,



Now, if all religious people are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu, etc...

Are all Christian's, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus religious?

There is religion. But what does it mean to be religious?



Thanks for discussing guys!
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:40 AM #2263
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Teaching critical thinking in psychology: a handbook of best practices - Dana Dunn, Jane S. Halonen, Randolph A. Smith - Google Books

Pages 213-217

Also, Google Spirituality vs. religiosity

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Old 02-24-2012, 02:27 AM #2264
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Does man's Unalienable rights sound familiar?
Rights? Rights according to whom? Rights given by whom? I hope you're not suggesting they're god-given rights. There's a packaged answer to that already:



Quote:
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Christians have little interest in ancient Hebrew law.
The rules against masturbation/homo***uality/adultery etc that most Christians subscribe to came from the old testament. Do you or do you not subscribe to what is written in the bible?

It seems to me like Christians pick and choose which portions they believe literally. Based on what?

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Muslim books, religious objects, small items, places, external goods are "sacred". I do not think that accurately describes the bible.
I think it does. I'm just going by the definition. "devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated."

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So some standards are higher than others? Or only to us?
It depends on who you ask and what you consider "higher." But yes. We consider religious freedom to be a good thing.

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is there a place where it is wrong to perform your function towards excellence?
In one way, it would defy the very idea of excellence if I said otherwise. In another way, excellence is subjective. Suicide bombers perform excellently according to some.

MAN that movie... His poetic license needs to be revoked. There are too many nonsense statements to address. I think what he meant to say is "I have my own interpretation of the bible that no one agrees with. So I will worship on my own."
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:15 PM #2265
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

All Dead Mormons Are Now Gay

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Old 02-24-2012, 08:27 PM #2266
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 02-25-2012, 04:38 AM #2267
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Rights? Rights according to whom? Rights given by whom? I hope you're not suggesting they're god-given rights. There's a packaged answer to that already:
There are rights that are inherent to what naturally comes with man. If you have a man, so you also see these natural rights included. If something has those same natural rights, then it is probably a man. We could get into the whole "man vs animal" discussion if we decided to get a bit off track. What about the right to life?

But most of what we call "rights" are not rights in the least bit. Why provide free universal health care to a country of people that don't take care of their own health IE eating responsibly - staying active?

Why will those who have "pudding brains" from sitting on a couch all day at 300 lbs get to receive the same free health care as someone who runs, or lifts, or eats well? Will the pudding brain not abuse the free health care? Won't the healthier man better appreciate and less likely abuse a free health care system?

Now, does a pudding brain deserve the same free health care the same as a healthier man? No.

Sure, he can still have health care - but perhaps he should first pay a price for it so he can know that there is value to having health.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
The rules against masturbation/homo***uality/adultery etc that most Christians subscribe to came from the old testament. Do you or do you not subscribe to what is written in the bible?
I am a Christian, not a 100 B.C. Jew. Are there a great number of those laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that are good and make good sense and perhaps provide a knowledge of right and wrong? One might say that.

Jesus came, and turned the religious leaders on their heads. He really pissed them off, and so they killed him. It was Jesus' message about the coming "Kingdom" that included the message, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus showed that there are greater things to watch out for an uphold than the law: Like People
Matthew 12:1-14 NIV - Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath - At that - Bible Gateway

Religion is concerned with what you do. Its only behavioral modification from the outside in. Through Jesus, we Christians say that these changes come from a new heart, and change a man from the inside - out.

Ephesians 2:4-10 NIV - But because of his great love for us, - Bible Gateway
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So if there's no heart change, there are no good works. No "fruit" produced.
Many people try to simply change their behavior, thinking that if they do good things and believe in God, then things will go well for them and they are saved. But it takes something else entirely. So what you see a ton of in America, is the fake "I grew up doing to church" kind of "religious" person who thinks that they've been "good enough" to get to heaven. And this is pish posh. It flies in the face of Christian Doctrine.



Ezekiel 36:26-27 NIV - I will give you a new heart and put a - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 11:19-20 NIV - I will give them an undivided heart and - Bible Gateway
Colossians 2:11-13 NIV - In him you were also circumcised with a - Bible Gateway
Romans 10:9-10 NIV - If you declare with your mouth, - Bible Gateway
2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the - Bible Gateway
Galatians 3:26-27 NIV - So in Christ Jesus you are all children - Bible Gateway
Galatians 4:6 NIV - Because you are his sons, God sent the - Bible Gateway
Romans 6:2-4 NIV - By no means! We are those who have died - Bible Gateway

And check this out: Galatians 5:22-23 NIV - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, - Bible Gateway
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Hebrews 10:15-16 NIV - The Holy Spirit also testifies to us - Bible Gateway
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
It seems to me like Christians pick and choose which portions they believe literally. Based on what?
It seems like you're observing something everyone is guilty of. Though, if you notice a "Christian" doing this, tell them this for me: "Living for to glorify Christ - You're doing it wrong!"

There are NOT many interpretations to the verses:

Philipians 2:15
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

All of Ephesians 2 is a great place to learn how a Christian should live. I think you'll find its not quite the "list" that you might see the ten commandments as.
Philippians 2 NIV - Imitating Christ


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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I think it does. I'm just going by the definition. "devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose; consecrated."
Fair enough. We however simply say, "It is Holy". "Sacred" sounds so catholic to me.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
It depends on who you ask and what you consider "higher." But yes. We consider religious freedom to be a good thing.
It seems that belief and opinion, actually do nothing to affect truth itself. So it doesn't matter who I ask, and what they say they "believe". It is wrong to commit adultery - always.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
In one way, it would defy the very idea of excellence if I said otherwise. In another way, excellence is subjective. Suicide bombers perform excellently according to some.
Suicide bombers perform their function very well, according to whom? To everyone. But for it to be virtuous, it must be done in the right time, in the right place, with the right motives, towards to the right people, and the man must be consciously doing it - not out of constraint. Now would you die for your country if all the above were to be met? A suicide bomber in most contexts may believe he is doing a virtuous thing, but that certainly doesn't mean he is with respect to the common "higher good" for man.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
MAN that movie... His poetic license needs to be revoked. There are too many nonsense statements to address. I think what he meant to say is "I have my own interpretation of the bible that no one agrees with. So I will worship on my own."
Who are you to called it non sense? You don't even agree with what he opposes to begin with.

If a "Christian" was so vehemently opposed as well, its safe to say they are "doing it wrong".

No one agrees with? Who exactly? How many Christians have you talked to that oppose his poem as much as you do? If at all? I have met none.

Usually, the common image you see is a stereotype. And I'm sorry that's all you see, because for Christ's sake, that's not what He is about. I would hope you don't think I'm like your commonly viewed image of religious man, or especially of Christians.

For instance, If I say "Christian", you might think 6,000 year old Earth. But you would miss the fact that I believe in a 5 billion year old Earth. Christians do the same thing. I say, "Billion year old Earth" and they think "evolutionist" alongside as an assumption. I'm sorry, but so far a lot of your views on Christianity are wrong assumptions. :/

You're a very respectful guy here. I would rather be interested in answering your questions at this point.
Go for it, I'm game. I will be nothing but honest.
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Old 02-25-2012, 03:59 PM #2268
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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There are rights that are inherent to what naturally comes with man.... What about the right to life?
I don't understand the first part. As for the right to life, I can think of several instances where that right is justifiably taken away. If it can be taken away, is it still a right? Or is it a privilege?

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Why provide free universal health care to a country of people that don't take care of their own health... Will the pudding brain not abuse the free health care?
Pretty much all systems can and have been abused. Does that mean all systems should be shut down? Some policemen abuse their power, so we shouldn't have police? The trend has been to deal with the abuse as it comes up. If all policy makers shut down new ideas for fear abuse, we would make no progress at all.

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Are there a great number of those laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that are good and make good sense and perhaps provide a knowledge of right and wrong? One might say that.
You DARE to question the word of your Lord God?! You shall burn in eternal hell fire for your insolence!

Do you then believe everything written in the new testament and deny the teachings of the old testament?

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Religion is concerned with what you do. Its only behavioral modification from the outside in. Through Jesus, we Christians say that these changes come from a new heart, and change a man from the inside - out.
You're saying Religion and Christianity are mutually exclusive? I think you might be misunderstanding something.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Jesus came, and turned the religious leaders on their heads.
Mathew seems to disagree with you

It just looks like a sermon after that, and I've ignored most of it. Yeah yeah, Jesus said a lot of things. Not all of them fit with your understanding of what is good and evil. So do you hate your family? Why not? It is commanded by your Lord Jesus Christ, yet you don't hear that passage at Sunday mass very often.

I posit this is because your morality has more influence on your view of the bible than the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
All of Ephesians 2 is a great place to learn how a Christian should live.
But I thought you said only religion (supposedly NOT to be confused with your beliefs ) was "concerned with what you do."

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
so far a lot of your views on Christianity are wrong assumptions. :/
I beg to differ. One of the problems is that there are hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of denominations that all believe something different. Who is correct? Who is going to hell? One answer I've heard is "as long as you live your life as Christ intended, you're fine." But since that is open to interpretation... what now? If it isn't open to interpretation, why do so many people interpret it differently?

Another answer is if you "have a kind heart" or some equally sappy tautology. If all you need is a kind heart, why go to church at all?

And what about those who have never heard of Christ? Where are they going and how can you be sure?

I'm not going to discuss that poem video. Like the bible, there's no way to tell if he's being literal or not. If I give an example of something that makes no sense, you'll probably say it wasn't meant to be taken literally. Maybe I just don't understand poetry. Sending messages with obscure hidden meanings is behavior for women
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:24 PM #2269
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Old 02-26-2012, 03:31 PM #2270
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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LOL I love that!
I picked Joseph Smith (the founder).

Some live mormons are too: Warning Link <-- Not Safe For Hetero's

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
We could get into the whole "man vs animal" discussion if we decided to get a bit off track. 1
What about the right to life? 2
1 There is no (real) difference between the human "animal" and the beast "animal". (other than physical form, less hair and intelligence).
Humans as well as animals are born, consume, create*, and die.
If you are going to say: But humans have "souls" and animals do not. Then you are a fucking brainwashed** idiot.

...Next, you are going to try to say that an Amoeba, Rock or Tree has no "soul", but Humans do. That is laughable

2 There is no right to life, there is just "living", and any animal or human can be killed just as easy as the next.

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Originally Posted by Joe Mo View Post
Cyparagon is the man.
I agree, because I refuse to read the BS arguments and cherry-picked scripture quotes that Meatball posts as I feel it is a waste of my time.
Cyparagon has the patience to read this crap and use logical arguments to attempt to enlighten those who do not (or can not) think for themselves.

Hat's off. (+rep)

*create (as used here) pertains to pro-creation or recreation, object creation, or even "idea" creation.

**brainwashed (as used here) is implying that Meatball does not have the capacity for critical analysis.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:38 PM #2271
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I don't understand the first part. As for the right to life, I can think of several instances where that right is justifiably taken away. If it can be taken away, is it still a right? Or is it a privilege?
What about what you previously said about it being justified? I would say that most anything can be taken away - even rights. The ones that can be justifiably taken away are privileges. But if its justified, then by who's line of justice? Is there a natural sense of justice instilled in people? Isn't it natural to invest in another human, and expect equal treatment in return? Sure there are exceptions, but isn't it otherwise natural and universal to expect out of any man from any culture? Wouldn't he expect "just" behavior from you in the same way?

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Pretty much all systems can and have been abused. Does that mean all systems should be shut down? Some policemen abuse their power, so we shouldn't have police? The trend has been to deal with the abuse as it comes up. If all policy makers shut down new ideas for fear abuse, we would make no progress at all.
No, I wouldn't say it should be shut down. But instead why would we give the same health care to those who are habitually lazy?

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You DARE to question the word of your Lord God?! You shall burn in eternal hell fire for your insolence!

Do you then believe everything written in the new testament and deny the teachings of the old testament?
I've told you once before, and I'll tell you again. You're not considering the context. The two sets of passages are vastly different, written for different purposes. Book of Deuteronomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <--- Those were sermons given to the Israelites.

I believe in the Old Testament's legitimacy in that what we have of it today, is what it was 2,000 years ago. Do you see me throwing rocks at those who commit adultery? That's what you might expect from me if I took the old law as my law.

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
You're saying Religion and Christianity are mutually exclusive? I think you might be misunderstanding something.

Yes, that has been my point this entire time. Are the Christians in America, Europe, and Korea good examples of my point? Definitely not. Many Christians ARE very "religious". My point is that mere Christianity is not you've seen. If you knew me, my friends, family, and church family, I think you would find us not so strange.

Mathew seems to disagree with you

It just looks like a sermon after that, and I've ignored most of it. Yeah yeah, Jesus said a lot of things. Not all of them fit with your understanding of what is good and evil. So do you hate your family? Why not? It is commanded by your Lord Jesus Christ, yet you don't hear that passage at Sunday mass very often.

I posit this is because your morality has more influence on your view of the bible than the other way around.
Darn it read my post. He turned the religious leaders on their heads. Do you even know what you're reading?

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
But I thought you said only religion (supposedly NOT to be confused with your beliefs ) was "concerned with what you do."
READ that passage. Its quite a bit different than the Ten Commandment's style of "Thou Shall not.."

What Paul wrote about is how we should live. These things are not commandments of life, and death, of salvation and condemnation. Paul writes those things so that we are living to glorify Christ and to build the body of Christ (the Church). I could totally goof up on the Ephesians 2 stuff and not be all of a sudden condemned. Everywhere, for everyone, it is a given that people will goof up, and fail to live up to what they believe. If you have a "flexible moral ruler", you can always tell yourself, "Ah, I'm not that bad".

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I beg to differ. One of the problems is that there are hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of denominations that all believe something different. Who is correct? Who is going to hell? One answer I've heard is "as long as you live your life as Christ intended, you're fine." But since that is open to interpretation... what now? If it isn't open to interpretation, why do so many people interpret it differently?

Another answer is if you "have a kind heart" or some equally sappy tautology. If all you need is a kind heart, why go to church at all?

And what about those who have never heard of Christ? Where are they going and how can you be sure?
Good questions! First, on denominations, you should read up on the differences between the main denominations IE Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Berean, Evangelical Free, Lutheran... etc.

The main differences are not a matter of life and death. It the difference between, "Should we baptize babies? Or only adults?", "Which translation we we prefer?", "What are the roles of men and woman in the church?"

I used to attend a Presbyterian church - the style was more traditional, and the sermons were theologically heavy. Not very involved in the community.
Now I attend an evangelical free church, with lighter sermons, more break out groups opportunities, more contemporary worship music styles etc..

The denominations I listed above would all agree on the gospel, and would not start thinking the others are going to hell because of baptism or worship styles. That would be silly. The pastors in my city often meet and do collaboration with other church by going through the same sermon series at the same time as an example.

Why the different interpretations? Read Dante's 4 levels of interpretation: English 300 - Fall 2004: Dante's 4 levels of interpretation
When reading scripture or any classical literature, you have to use all 4 levels to pull everything out. Even though Paul said they shouldn't, the churches of ancient Rome split into subgroups and subgroups of those subgroups because of what level of interpretation they tended to emphasize on key parts of scripture.

The thing is, in the US anyway, the larger denominations' differences are continually fading. There is not much difference anymore at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
I'm not going to discuss that poem video. Like the bible, there's no way to tell if he's being literal or not. If I give an example of something that makes no sense, you'll probably say it wasn't meant to be taken literally. Maybe I just don't understand poetry. Sending messages with obscure hidden meanings is behavior for women
Tell that to Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and his rival authors who wrote in a communist Russia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
1 There is no (real) difference between the human "animal" and the beast "animal". (other than physical form, less hair and intelligence).
Humans as well as animals are born, consume, create*, and die.
If you are going to say: But humans have "souls" and animals do not. Then you are a fucking brainwashed** idiot.

...Next, you are going to try to say that an Amoeba, Rock or Tree has no "soul", but Humans do. That is laughable

2 There is no right to life, there is just "living", and any animal or human can be killed just as easy as the next.
All living bodies are born, consume, create and die. That's the definition of life. But isn't a person so much more than that?

Do animals wear clothes? Is intelligence really the only thing something needs to find a need to wear clothes? Why?

Why is it unlawful to kill a person, but not unlawful to squish a bug? What gives your life precedence over the life of an insect? Does your superior brain entitle you to the right to squish the insect because it might be annoying? Why would you try and tear someone apart, who values human life over the life of an insect - or even a dog, cat, horse or whale?

Do animals act? No. Animals react. They react in response to their surroundings, their instincts, and all that they know to do.

People are the only things than act. We can choose to ignore our passions, emotions, instincts, and surroundings. We're quite a different animal if I ever saw one. We are the only things on Earth that can even think and consider such things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
I agree, because I refuse to read the BS arguments and cherry-picked scripture quotes that Meatball posts as I feel it is a waste of my time.
So you don't even read my posts? Then get off the board if you have nothing constructive to add to Cyparagon's points. Oh, but that would require you to think for yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
Cyparagon has the patience to read this crap and use logical arguments to attempt to enlighten those who do not (or can not) think for themselves.

*create (as used here) pertains to pro-creation or recreation, object creation, or even "idea" creation.

**brainwashed (as used here) is implying that Meatball does not have the capacity for critical analysis.
Stooping to personal attacks? Should I refer you to the forum rules?
I'll just pretend you didn't go to that level.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:37 AM #2272
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Please see my responses below in Orange.

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All living bodies are born, consume, create and die. That's the definition of life. But isn't a person so much more than that?
Negative. Human's just maintain their "illusion" of superiority. In reality Humans are animals, just a bit more intelligent.

Do animals wear clothes? Is intelligence really the only thing something needs to find a need to wear clothes? Why?
Some animals wear clothes (of a sort), yes. Hermit Crabs are the first thing that came to mind, but I am sure there are more. image They even get better fitting outfits when they "grow out" of their old clothes.

Your bible tells us that we wear clothes because we are "ashamed" because some Snake made a dude (Adam) eat an apple (knowledge-giving apple, no less) [via eve's instigation] or some bullshit like that, right?

I tend to think that we wear clothes to keep us comfortable (temperature depending).
These guys don't. Link
Why is it unlawful to kill a person, but not unlawful to squish a bug? According to my "personal" morals, I do not kill any bug or animal unless it attacks me first, so I am acting in self-defense.
What gives your life precedence over the life of an insect?
Nothing. The Amoeba, the Yak, the bacteria and I are all equals.
Does your superior brain entitle you to the right to squish the insect because it might be annoying? No. (see above answer)
Why would you try and tear someone apart, who values human life over the life of an insect - or even a dog, cat, horse or whale? huh? I don't really get this question.

Do animals act? No. Animals react. They react in response to their surroundings, their instincts, and all that they know to do.
So do Humans. There is no difference.

People are the only things that act. (Shakespeare?)
We can choose to ignore our passions, emotions, instincts, and surroundings. We're quite a different animal if I ever saw one. We are the only things on Earth that can even think and consider such things.
Um, sorry to break it to you, but Chimpanzees, Dolphins and even Elephants have the capacity to ignore their instincts and "play" or "experiment" within their environment.


So you don't even read my posts?
Actually, I start to read your religious rhetoric, but can not finish as it is the same exact shit that 99% of the other bible-thumpers say. So I feel it is a waste of my time.

Then get off the board if you have nothing constructive to add to Cyparagon's points. Yes sir,... As you wish,... I will get off the board immediately because you "command" me to.

Oh, but that would require you to think for yourself.
Hey Meatball, do you think anyone thinks for me? Have you ever even heard of someone who feels compassion for all living things. And by the way,.... I deeply feel that all things in the universe (from oxygen molecules, to machines, to Stars) have an "essence" that could be considered "life". I even feel compassion for the rock that I split open to examine the internal crystalline structure for my profession (Geology).

Stooping to personal attacks? Should I refer you to the forum rules?
I'll just pretend you didn't go to that level.
What personal attacks? I call them as I see them, and I can clearly see that you do not have the capacity for critical thinking as all of your "supporting arguments" are derived from a book of stories written by others.

Sir, I live in a world of reality not a world of "clouded illusion" such as yourself.
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