Old 03-06-2011, 03:34 AM #1985
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Trevor, I think you just concentrated on arguing 'just because' in your past few responses. I want to stress specifically what Dave said on the following paragraph:

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
In order to have a serious debate, you must have more than one serious faction AND you MUST have ALL of the participating factions open to changing their beliefs. Those TWO conditions will never be met in this environment.

Peace,
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...which is what you didn't pay attention to on your answer.

To learn is to change the way you think about something.


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Old 03-06-2011, 03:39 AM #1986
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
When does a discussion become a debate?
To save us both some trouble (okay maybe not - you can seemingly effortlessly pick apart whatever I try to put forth, but I guess that's why you teach that), I'll only address this one.

Within the framework of my school career, a "debate" ended with a winner and a loser, it was a competition. On the other hand, a "discussion" was just an exchange of ideas. This is not the dictionary definition. I was, of course, wrong to make the distinction.

I'm going to try to leave quietly and be optimistic about not being judged enough such that interactions outside this thread are negatively affected.

-Trevor

EDIT: Niko, I didn't ignore it (and don't refute it and didn't feel it needed to be addressed); I do agree that to have a serious debate both parties must be willing to change their beliefs. I've had quite a strange experience in the area of religion in my life. I spent a good part of it agnostic, then atheist.

Please elaborate on your assertion of "to learn is to change the way you think about something" in the context of your bolded text from Dave of "open to changing their beliefs." I think I know what you're trying to tell me, but I will not insult you by insinuating that I have assumed correctly by posting it.
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:18 AM #1987
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
Within the framework of my school career, a "debate" ended with a winner and a loser, it was a competition. On the other hand, a "discussion" was just an exchange of ideas. This is not the dictionary definition. I was, of course, wrong to make the distinction.
I have no problems with anyone's beliefs as long as they are not harming themselves or others because of them. What is said here (except probably malicious ad hom) will never affect my interaction with you or anyone else. I understand the basis for the need to believe in something. I adore humans in all of their forms.

That being said, I would just ask you to re-visit the concept you commented on above. You do not even have to post anything about it. This is just for what we would refer to in Academia as "life-long learning."

Using your own definitions, "When does a discussion become a debate?" Under what conditions would you draw the "bright line" at which a discussion becomes a debate? What will you do if a discussion you are involved in, crosses that bright line? How will you handle someone else drawing that bright line at a different position?

And here's the biggie. Do you REALLY want just a discussion (using your definition) about these things or is there really always a winner and a loser at the end?

PM your address to me again (I am a horrible businessman). I will send you a copy of an old article that you may find enlightening.

Peace,
dave
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:25 AM #1988
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
To save us both some trouble (okay maybe not - you can seemingly effortlessly pick apart whatever I try to put forth, but I guess that's why you teach that), I'll only address this one.

Within the framework of my school career, a "debate" ended with a winner and a loser, it was a competition. On the other hand, a "discussion" was just an exchange of ideas. This is not the dictionary definition. I was, of course, wrong to make the distinction.

I'm going to try to leave quietly and be optimistic about not being judged enough such that interactions outside this thread are negatively affected.

-Trevor

EDIT: Niko, I didn't ignore it (and don't refute it and didn't feel it needed to be addressed); I do agree that to have a serious debate both parties must be willing to change their beliefs. I've had quite a strange experience in the area of religion in my life. I spent a good part of it agnostic, then atheist.

Please elaborate on your assertion of "to learn is to change the way you think about something" in the context of your bolded text from Dave of "open to changing their beliefs." I think I know what you're trying to tell me, but I will not insult you by insinuating that I have assumed correctly by posting it.
Gotta go to sleep, so I'll keep it simple: You go to, say, university and attend to a math class where "some guy with a diploma will teach you how to integrate". Now, you go to that class because you are open to learning what integration is. The teacher presents evidence and a demonstration of where integrals come from and what they're used for. Upon seeing this demonstration students usually 'believe' the teacher that integrals are what was just taught to them and that they are used for X and for Y, etc.

This is because you were open to learning and to CHANGING the way you think about something you didn't know before (or which you did know but did not understand fully).

Say you already thought you knew what integrals were but upon seeing the teacher's mathematical demonstrations you can say to yourself "Ohh... so that's what they're used for!". What is that? That is you deleting your previous 'knowledge' about integrals and replacing it with the newer one which you now accept as the correct knowledge. If you were stubborn and rejected the evidence (which can be proved methodically and infinitely wherever you are) you would be closing your mind to believing only what you had in your mind before the teacher explained what integrals were (that is, if you don't provide real evidence that the teacher and his teachings are wrong).

My eyelids are closing involuntarily and I'm pretty sure Dave can and will sum up what I said in just one phrase so I'll leave it here and go to sleep

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Old 03-06-2011, 10:38 AM #1989
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

zOMG, what have I unleashed....
LOL, you guys are just too much.

twhite:
I wasn't really trying to ''argue" in favour of this or against that, I thought I had made it
pretty clear from the beginning that I was just trolling:
Quote:
[ I ] just wanted to add a little lumber to both fires.
I personally think that this thread is at it's best when people post "funny" pictures.
I enjoyed the one you put up about how scientology unites.

Why am I not taking this thread very seriously?
Well I don't believe () that either "side" is going to convice the "other" anyways,
and when you get really serious about this discussion, people often only end up
being rude and offending each other, resulting in, pointlessly, hurt feelings.

I don't judge people on this forum for what they have said in this thread or even
the whole off-topic forum for that matter.
I form my opinion about 'em by how clever or honest or creative or helpful they are regarding LASERs.

That being said, I can see how the last statement at the end of the "quizshow" could
indeed be perceived as quite inflammatory, but hey, I didn't really mean it as a
serious attack on christians. I remember there was a lot of talk at several
points in this thread about "bible contradictions", I didn't want to withhold this little resumee from you guys.

The most serious thing I can think of about that video is maybe this:
It's an argument against the idea that the bible is the "infallible word of GOD".
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:04 PM #1990
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikokapo View Post
..... where integrals come from and what they're used for ......
Oh, right, mathematics ..... for a moment, i thought you was referring to "integral cereals" .....

(sorry, just kidding )
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:40 PM #1991
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikokapo View Post
Gotta go to sleep, so I'll keep it simple: You go to, say, university and attend to a math class where "some guy with a diploma will teach you how to integrate". Now, you go to that class because you are open to learning what integration is. The teacher presents evidence and a demonstration of where integrals come from and what they're used for. Upon seeing this demonstration students usually 'believe' the teacher that integrals are what was just taught to them and that they are used for X and for Y, etc.

This is because you were open to learning and to CHANGING the way you think about something you didn't know before (or which you did know but did not understand fully).

Say you already thought you knew what integrals were but upon seeing the teacher's mathematical demonstrations you can say to yourself "Ohh... so that's what they're used for!". What is that? That is you deleting your previous 'knowledge' about integrals and replacing it with the newer one which you now accept as the correct knowledge. If you were stubborn and rejected the evidence (which can be proved methodically and infinitely wherever you are) you would be closing your mind to believing only what you had in your mind before the teacher explained what integrals were (that is, if you don't provide real evidence that the teacher and his teachings are wrong).
Niko, I see what you are saying about 'learning.' However, I dislike your subtle simplification of my world view as a rejection of basic math. It reads quite condescending. You don't actually know what I believe, because you haven't asked and I haven't tried to shove it down your throat. The majority of what I've tried in this thread is ask people (ossumguywill comes to mind) to examine the context of 'evidence' (for example, single verses from a particular translation) he cited that was found with a single Google search.

Dave, I have ideas kicking around in my head that need to be coalesced into coherent thought. I'll get in touch.

anselm, I apologize for jumping on your post in particular. In watching this thread, I got fed up with ossumguywill's (he's the only one I can think of at the moment) unwillingness to personally examine the context of things he was citing literally as 'evidence.' This is what that video did, and it's just struck a nerve. Google copypasta does not a world view make. Nothing personal.

HIMNL9, integrating Niko's cereal is useless. But if you took a derivative, you'd see a rather large negative value.

-Trevor
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:40 PM #1992
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
HIMNL9, integrating Niko's cereal is useless. But if you took a derivative, you'd see a rather large negative value.
Uhm, and what can be a derivative of cereal with a negative value ? ..... something that damage your health ? ..... "bitter almonds (AKA cyanur) flavoured cereals ? .....

I guess they cannot have too much marketing success (if you don't push the sales with faith, at least) ..... (just kidding, and no offense intended )
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:40 PM #1993
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
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Uhm, and what can be a derivative of cereal with a negative value ?
Mr. HIMNL9, the rate of change of cereal in his bowl is negative.

-Trevor
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:50 PM #1994
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
Mr. HIMNL9, the rate of change of cereal in his bowl is negative.

-Trevor
However, the rate of change to the cereal after it is in his body . . . . .

Peace,
dave

**EDIT**
-- @ twhite - Just FYI; the article I'm thinking about has absolutely nothing to do with religion, spirituality, or faith
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:31 PM #1995
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
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Uhm, and what can be a derivative of cereal with a negative value ? ..... something that damage your health ? ..... "bitter almonds (AKA cyanur) flavoured cereals ? .....

I guess they cannot have too much marketing success (if you don't push the sales with faith, at least) ..... (just kidding, and no offense intended )

that is easy... it's an empty bowl.
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:28 PM #1996
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipdouglas View Post
that is easy... it's an empty bowl.
Naah ..... an empty bowl is a zero value, you need a negative value ..... more empty than just empty




Quote:
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However, the rate of change to the cereal after it is in his body . . . . .
ROTFL ! ..... "gas factory" ? .....
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:23 PM #1997
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@ himnl9 "more empty" sounds good too lol.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:42 PM #1998
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

A professor of mathematics is sitting in a conference room together with 3 peers.
Seven leave the room.
Prof thinks:"If three come in now, the room will be empty."

Gentlemen, please.
Niko's cereal bowls in argentina can hardly be considered religion.
OK maybe his own personal religion. cereal-norris polytheism

@chip: nice reply 2k
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:23 PM #1999
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
Gentlemen, please.
Niko's cereal bowls in argentina can hardly be considered religion.
OK maybe his own personal religion. cereal-norris polytheism
You have (obviously) never seen Niko eat cereal

Peace,
dave
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:35 PM #2000
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I have, it's in his signature.
Do you need glasses for that size 1 font, old chap?
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Last edited by anselm; 03-07-2011 at 09:38 PM.
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