Old 02-09-2011, 08:19 AM #1969
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

^ i just hope, for that what remain of our souls, that it's not a "microsoft" license type

(just can't resist )


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Old 02-09-2011, 08:19 AM #1970
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post


Peace,
dave
Haha thats pretty funny but actually sad, because its true...
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:39 PM #1971
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Default Re: LPF's Religion



Blast the blasphemer's femur!
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:08 AM #1972
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post


Peace,
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:crac kup:

Very true, probably because most christians are born into christianity.

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Old 02-22-2011, 04:07 AM #1973
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Bash quote #931621 :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasran
did Jesus heal a bunch of people? Possibly
also apparently he was sin-free
but we don't hear much about his ciildhood
it's just
1. Birth
2. ???
3. Prophet!
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:40 PM #1974
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Bash quote #931621 :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasran
did Jesus heal a bunch of people? Possibly
also apparently he was sin-free
but we don't hear much about his ciildhood
it's just
1. Birth
2. ???
3. Prophet!



Read the Apocrypha. He appears to have been quite the h#ll raiser as a child

Peace,
dave
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:39 AM #1975
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hello you guys,
just wanted to add a little lumber to both fires. Well, not really.

Anecdotal evidence that hints at the existence of GOD:

But can the source be trusted?
Or: is god a /b/tard?

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Oh and for those who always wanted a list of bible contradictions in youtube format:
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:08 PM #1976
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

^^^^ Anselm, thanks so much for posting that video! It is just so full of WIN I just can't stand it!! But it's true, the list of contradictions in the " good book " seems to have no end. Just when you think you've heard them all, you find yet another!
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:40 PM #1977
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Even religious people will tell you that Biblical literalism is dumb. Straw man.

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Old 03-05-2011, 07:30 PM #1978
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
Even religious people will tell you that Biblical literalism is dumb. Straw man.

-Trevor
- Obfuscation
- Misuse of a vague expression
- Ambiguity
- Hasty generalization
- Reductio ad absurdum


Peace,
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:40 PM #1979
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
- Obfuscation
- Misuse of a vague expression
- Ambiguity
- Hasty generalization
- Reductio ad absurdum


Peace,
dave
If I get a few minutes today, I'll choose a few references from that video at random and research them, since you seem pretty uninterested in doing so.

I said it was straw man argument, since it seems to me that no one in this thread actually subscribes to scriptural literalism of any sort. That is very much a fringe view.

Though, to take scripture out of context and interpret it literally is also scriptural literalism - exactly what the creator of the video is trying to poke holes in...

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Old 03-05-2011, 07:51 PM #1980
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
If I get a few minutes today, I'll choose a few references from that video at random and research them, since you seem pretty uninterested in doing so.

I said it was straw man argument, since it seems to me that no one in this thread actually subscribes to scriptural literalism of any sort. That is very much a fringe view.

Though, to take scripture out of context and interpret it literally is also scriptural literalism - exactly what the creator of the video is trying to poke holes in...

-Trevor
I would not begin to debate literalism in "the bible." There are far too many versions and translations to accomplish anything with that debate. You could debate discrepancies in a single, agreed upon, version/translation. However, without that previous agreement, the debate is useless.

My post was directed at your use of ambiguous verbiage to devalue your opponent's argument and your labeling it a fallacy without giving any support for that position

Peace,
dave
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:09 PM #1981
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
My post was directed at your use of ambiguous verbiage to devalue your opponent's argument and your labeling it a fallacy without giving any support for that position
Perhaps I should have reworded:

Very few people subscribe to scriptural literalism anymore, and those who do are on the fringes. That video sets up a straw man (an argumentative fallacy) to argue against, and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt until you examine all source material and context for yourself to draw your own independent conclusion.

Every time I look at this thread I lament that I've only had two or three chances to participate in or witness a debate in which two mature opponent in an environment free of all the white noise provided by 'clever' pictures, video, and people. A lot of interesting things were said that I know would be drowned out by obnoxiousness on both sides no matter where it took place on the internet.

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Old 03-06-2011, 01:46 AM #1982
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
Perhaps I should have reworded:

Very few people subscribe to scriptural literalism anymore, and those who do are on the fringes. That video sets up a straw man (an argumentative fallacy) to argue against, and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt until you examine all source material and context for yourself to draw your own independent conclusion.

Every time I look at this thread I lament that I've only had two or three chances to participate in or witness a debate in which two mature opponent in an environment free of all the white noise provided by 'clever' pictures, video, and people. A lot of interesting things were said that I know would be drowned out by obnoxiousness on both sides no matter where it took place on the internet.

-Trevor
You begin, once again, with a sweeping, hasty generalization, based in ambiguity. Also, your "requirement" for people to examine all source material is an impossible task. With that requirement in place, you too, should be excluded from commenting on the video. People with a Doctorate in Theology have not satisfied that requirement. In addition, the actual "source material" is not available to us to examine anyway. The video does not expose which scriptural quotation came from what version and/or translation.

Most importantly, you are setting yourself up for frustration and failure before you begin.

True "debate" in this area is virtually impossible. You cannot debate "faith", especially in an environment where there is no para-language available to aid in understanding. By the time we find out what they actually meant, as opposed to what we thought that they meant, our opposition has become even more firmly entrenched.

Combine that with the belief, of many of the participants, in this environment, that any religion is a waste of their time (and maybe even harmful), and the environment is too toxic for any true debate to occur. It is not taken seriously by the majority of participants. I believe that this is your central source of dissatisfaction.

There are places and situation where religion and faith can be debated. Unfortunately, this is not one of them. Trying to do so will only leave you frustrated. If you truly desire to debate these things, I recommend that you do it in another venue.

So, "Why have this thread?" If this thread is not available, these issues will crop up in other boards. We see this phenomenon with gun control, politics, and nationalism regularly. One of the main values of this thread (and why it keeps getting re-stickied) is that it serves as a place, outside of the main boards, where people can learn the following lesson.

People here can believe what they want. However, they should refrain from speaking about those beliefs at LPF. It is not because those beliefs are verboten or bad. It is just that this is not the correct venue for that debate.

In order to have a serious debate, you must have more than one serious faction AND you MUST have ALL of the participating factions open to changing their beliefs. Those TWO conditions will never be met in this environment.

Post a funny picture about atheists (or theists, or humanists, or adherents to animalism, or any ism or ist you desire) and move along. You will get no serious debate here.

Peace,
dave
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Old 03-06-2011, 02:25 AM #1983
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
You begin, once again, with a sweeping, hasty generalization, based in ambiguity.
It is my personal experience, and should be dismissed or accepted as that and no more. I can't give a citation for that.

Quote:
Also, your "requirement" for people to examine all source material is an impossible task. With that requirement in place, you too, should be excluded from commenting on the video. People with a Doctorate in Theology have not satisfied that requirement. In addition, the actual "source material" is not available to us to examine anyway. The video does not expose which scriptural quotation came from what version and/or translation.
If the creator of something uses some translation of some "holy" text as "source material," then at least examine what they chose to use as "source material" to see what one's individual evaluation is. You are correct, the author of the video does not expose a version or translation. In this case (the Christian "holy" text), one can go to a popular search engine and do several minutes of research that should yield a translation that is either "commonly" accepted or (again, in this case) close to the Greek versions. This is, as far as I know, as close as one can really get and would be more than enough to evaluate what the author of the video is saying.

Quote:
Most importantly, you are setting yourself up for frustration and failure before you begin.
I am, after all, on the incredible edible internet.

Quote:
True "debate" in this area is virtually impossible.
I am erroneously using the term "debate" in the place of "discussion." Discussion is possible. Mature discussion in this setting is virtually impossible, to borrow a phrase.

Quote:
It is not taken seriously by the majority of participants. I believe that this is your central source of dissatisfaction.
Hit the nail on the head, though it's not unexpected.

Quote:
Post a funny picture about atheists (or theists, or humanists, or adherents to animalism, or any ism or ist you desire) and move along. You will get no serious debate here.
I only do that for lighthearted trolling (not somewhere like this thread), but this one recently amused me.



-Trevor
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:00 AM #1984
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
It is my personal experience, and should be dismissed or accepted as that and no more. I can't give a citation for that.

You do not state it as an opinion. You state it as a factual basis for your evaluation of your opponent's argument.



If the creator of something uses some translation of some "holy" text as "source material," then at least examine what they chose to use as "source material" to see what one's individual evaluation is. You are correct, the author of the video does not expose a version or translation. In this case (the Christian "holy" text), one can go to a popular search engine and do several minutes of research that should yield a translation that is either "commonly" accepted or (again, in this case) close to the Greek versions. This is, as far as I know, as close as one can really get and would be more than enough to evaluate what the author of the video is saying.

You cannot evaluate something if you do not know if it is the correct/same something. You cannot say, "I think this one is close enough." You do NOT know. Your concept of "commonly accepted" is not quantifiable in the context you have illustrated.

I am, after all, on the incredible edible internet.



I am erroneously using the term "debate" in the place of "discussion." Discussion is possible. Mature discussion in this setting is virtually impossible, to borrow a phrase.

These terms are synonyms. The only shade of difference that I can find is one of the level of formality of codification. Even those measures are different depending on who you are reading. I use a lot of terms from argumentation and debate because that is where my training was. However, there is truly no difference in my mind between those two terms. When does a discussion become a debate?

Hit the nail on the head, though it's not unexpected.



I only do that for lighthearted trolling (not somewhere like this thread), but this one recently amused me.

The vast majority of posts in this thread are trolls. VilliageIdiot's original intention for this thread broke down almost immediately. It has become something else. He NEVER intended this to be a discussion thread to begin with. He was just curious what religions were represented in the forum. It never was a serious discussion thread because of the conditions I outlined in my previous post.

I am NOT saying don't believe, or desire to learn. I am simply saying that it won't happen here.

Peace,
dave
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