Old 12-31-2010, 06:33 PM #1921
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

As long as the defense of the text is portions of the very text itself, there is no validity to the defense. You can measure internal consistency or lack thereof. However, you cannot measure validity

Unfortunately, once one moves outside the text being discussed to examine it, the "truths" fall.

As long as the defense of the text is based in "feelings" about what it means and/or what its origin are, there is no analysis.

Without valid analysis, there is no argument. There is only emotional posturing.

Emotional posturing is what the vast majority of these discussions are.

Y'all are (of course) welcomed to continue posturing and "puffing up." However, do it with the realization that no amount of posturing or bombast will ever alter anothers "beliefs" or "feelings." It only serves to further entrench yourself in your own beliefs

When it appears that someone is actually looking for truth, rather than looking for ways to defend and propigate their own beliefs, I will participate. Whenever it becomes obvious that someone is simply trying to defend their personal beliefs or feelings, I will step back.

The truth is out there. It is just NEVER contained within one single volume of work. ANY INFORMATION "touched" by humans is tainted by that (or those) human's "frame of reference" (terministic screen), experience, beliefs, and feelings. That simple fact REQUIRES that in order to have some idea of truth, one MUST view the subject from different and alternate perspectives.

Peace,
dave


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Old 12-31-2010, 07:30 PM #1922
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
As long as the defense of the text is portions of the very text itself, there is no validity to the defense. You can measure internal consistency or lack thereof. However, you cannot measure validity

Unfortunately, once one moves outside the text being discussed to examine it, the "truths" fall.

As long as the defense of the text is based in "feelings" about what it means and/or what its origin are, there is no analysis.

Without valid analysis, there is no argument. There is only emotional posturing.


Emotional posturing is what the vast majority of these discussions are.

Y'all are (of course) welcomed to continue posturing and "puffing up." However, do it with the realization that no amount of posturing or bombast will ever alter anothers "beliefs" or "feelings." It only serves to further entrench yourself in your own beliefs

When it appears that someone is actually looking for truth, rather than looking for ways to defend and propigate their own beliefs, I will participate. Whenever it becomes obvious that someone is simply trying to defend their personal beliefs or feelings, I will step back.

The truth is out there. It is just NEVER contained within one single volume of work. ANY INFORMATION "touched" by humans is tainted by that (or those) human's "frame of reference" (terministic screen), experience, beliefs, and feelings. That simple fact REQUIRES that in order to have some idea of truth, one MUST view the subject from different and alternate perspectives.

Peace,
dave
Could not be more true
I think we may be on similar paths. A lot can be learned when one is able to experience perception without an ego.

Last edited by Braddubya; 12-31-2010 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:30 PM #1923
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
The truth is out there. It is just NEVER contained within one single volume of work. ANY INFORMATION "touched" by humans is tainted by that (or those) human's "frame of reference" (terministic screen), experience, beliefs, and feelings. That simple fact REQUIRES that in order to have some idea of truth, one MUST view the subject from different and alternate perspectives.

Peace,
dave
Well said.... I had to look up "terministic screen" Kenneth Burke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 01-01-2011, 01:52 AM #1924
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The bottom line says it all !


Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
That simple fact REQUIRES that in order to have some idea of truth, one MUST view the subject from different and alternate perspectives.

Peace,
dave
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Old 01-02-2011, 09:51 PM #1925
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
You want the world to be without evil?

Then you take away free will, and any purpose as to why God would create at all.

Men and Angels alike were created with free will, the ability to choose.

You want God to just end it all, so you can become a little robot among several billion?

You would not like God so much if you realized that he gave you no ability to choose to live for him, or to live for yourself. Makes sense?

There are a few things God cannot do.

He cannot lie. Hebrews 6:18
He cannot be tempted. James 1:13
He cannot cease to exist. Psalm 102:25-27

We are created in his image (not a physical image, not the body, but rather like the ''likeness'' of God) having these things.

1. Having concerns about death and life after death
2. Consciousness of self and of destiny
3. Drive to discover and capacity to recognize truth

No matter the time and place in history, if a creature does not have these, it cannot be considered "adam".

When did God say that violence in and of itself is sin?

Would God be just, and fair if he did not punish for sin? Just letting people 'slip' by?

Remember that the punishment for sin is death.

Thus, there is no forgiveness of sins without the spilling of blood.

Do you know why we don't have to sacrifice our animals, like those in the Old Testament did?

What's the point of having students in classroom if they are already "perfect"?

God DOES have the power to wipe us all off the face of the Earth for what we've done. I for one am thankful that I can stand before him and open my mouth to speak without being smitten to the ground for doing so.

Why listen to an atheistic philosopher who ideally cannot acknowledge the existence of evil itself? By realizing evil, you also realize that there exists a total polar opposite.
1.You assume free will=evil.
You denounce evil, yet you celebrate free will, which you recognize as one and the same? Something is wrong here.
2.You assume free will exists.
Knowing what I know about universal bounds, I believe free will to be an illusion. Every action is predictable to a very small degree of error.
3.Everyone already is a little robot among several billion, albeit a very inefficient and illogical robot. Assume the "soul" you believe in does not exists (as many of us think). How are we any different from a machine, or an animal? That is why many people are spiritual, because they are afraid to face the fact that we humans aren't special.
4.If we are a likeness of god, why can we lie, be tempted, or cease to exist? He obviously didn't to a great job of replication.
5.All of these can be explained perfectly by evolution… No need for god.
6.God shouldn't HAVE to punish people for sin if he had done a good job.
7.Exactly… if god had made us perfect, we wouldn't have to study or do anything to better ourselves.
8.You are being controlled by fear. I am free to say whatever I want without fearing that the invisible man in the sky will strike me down for it.
9.Evil is a human construction, and it only is what we say it is. It's not a material thing or a force of nature. Also, just because something exists does not mean there has to be an opposite… I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at here. Are you saying that there is an opposite of evil, which is good? Sure, we've set up that moral construct too.


@Daguin-is the purpose of the scientific method not to negate the effects of one's terministic screen/personal bias? Typically atheists tend to base their factual views on the scientific method, while with religion it is mostly conjecture (calling it conjecture might be generous).
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:51 AM #1926
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
@Daguin-is the purpose of the scientific method not to negate the effects of one's terministic screen/personal bias? Typically atheists tend to base their factual views on the scientific method, while with religion it is mostly conjecture (calling it conjecture might be generous).
The "scientific method" simply allows for the formulation and testing of a hypothesis, the attempt to control for extraneous variables, and to provide for the replication of a test or measure. If it is applied effectively, it can lead toward truth.

It cannot "negate" ones terministic screen. Hopefully, the external replication of a measure will expose any problems that the previous inquirer's terministic screen introduced

"Facts" can prove as fleeting as faith.

Science is also based in a "leap of faith."

However, as far as we know, it is the most effective way of ascertaining truth

Peace,
dave
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Old 01-03-2011, 09:05 AM #1927
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

^ Say it to Schrodinger's cat

(just kidding )
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:49 PM #1928
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

^^ Ah but someone will peek into the box and ruin the experiment.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:34 PM #1929
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coherent Light View Post
^^ Ah but someone will peek into the box and ruin the experiment.
Well, but, after all, for what other reasons we do experiments, if not for the fun to "peek into the box" and see what happens ? ..... sometimes, someone just "spoil the fun", some other times, someone will discover something interesting .....
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:40 PM #1930
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The fun with Schrodinger's cat ends when you open the box up until then the cat is Alive & Dead at the same time. Also it sucks for the cat if when you open the box the radiation has killed It.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:33 PM #1931
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Uhm ..... does the cat be more happy if you left it sealed in the box for more time than the food, water or air ends ? (or for more time than the cat may naturally survive, if for that).

As far as i may know, all these conditions will ends the experiment, whatever one happens first (and, imho, it still suck, for the cat )

Also, this is the bad part of Schroedinger experiment ..... all peoples made all the type of considerations about the fact that the cat is contemporarily dead and alive at the same time, but none have never asked what the cat think about this .....
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:51 PM #1932
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

lmao

Well being a cat it would act indifferent when asked it's opinion on the matter. I don't recall there ever being any food or water in the box. If the box is never opened We don't need to worry about the cat.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:54 PM #1933
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

With Schrodinger's Cat, we win no matter what.

If the cat is alive, it's trapped in a box.
Or the cat could be dead.
If the cat is both alive and dead, then WTF?! EPIC WIN!

(I don't like cats, can you tell?)

-Trevor
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:55 PM #1934
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
^ Say it to Schrodinger's cat

(just kidding )
Ahhhhh. One of the clearest examples of the faith based nature of science.

This "experiment" is, by its own description, not possible to observe. Yet it is becoming accepted as "truth"

In the "pantheon of science" Schrodinger is the god of uncertainty (superposition and entanglement).

At The Feast, he sits just to the right of Baccus (the god of wine ) and to the left of Poldosky (the god of "no-go" ).

Peace,
dave
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:45 PM #1935
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by daguin View Post
..... At The Feast, he sits just to the right of Baccus (the god of wine ) and to the left of Poldosky (the god of "no-go" ).
Peace,
dave
And, i suppose, he was "talking" much more with Baccus than with Poldosky, when he had that idea about the cat-in-the-box experiment ..... (*hic* )

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Old 01-03-2011, 03:54 PM #1936
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Nah He just did it to mess with Einstein. I'm with TW a box is a good place for a cat.
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