Old 12-19-2010, 02:13 PM #1857
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
No need for "religious" scholars or zealots here, just what YOU see. Not what others claim. I'm serious, I WILL swap books with you and I will read yours if you would want me to. Let me know. I'll consider whatever you want me to read.

You claim that what was written is errant, but what scholars talk about are the translations, and interpretations we have. I will state it again, that I believe that scripture in its original form, is the Word of God.

If these "errors" are so evident to a few "scholars", why don't they appear to make any heavy implications upon their faith? If there were such errors, it would be on the front page of the newspaper, the news would be revolutionary, and change the world forever. Christianity would have been completely and comprehensively wiped from the face of the Earth for all its "lies" and "evils". Yet it remains. Is that so illogical that it remains?

Some would argue that he does screw with us. I DO believe he is an active part in my life, not static by any means. I would though, more importantly say, that God can, and has overcome man's free will, in order to enable man to write something that is inerrant.

If God is god, and can have someone write something without errors, then if God "inspires" someone to write "There is a God", is what that person writes a true and inerrant statement or a false statement? This is still assuming the validity of the "if" statement.
It is not "my claim." It is the reality of the text.

That is the main point of this current discussion. You have NEVER seen or read the text as it was ORIGINALLY written. Based on your repeated statements here, I might even posit that you have never even read your own text in its entirety (at least not for a really long time). You repeat a dogma.

It is not my job to convince you to believe anything. It is just my job to try to get you to think and learn. Invest a little effort in discovering truth. Then tie that truth into your belief system. Your belief and feelings have value, but they cannot usurp reality. Your repeatedly parroting obvious misconceptions of reality simply make you look like an automaton.

You have been offered several tools already. If you choose not to utilize them, that is your choice. Your call for me to "prove" or supply you with "examples" is simply to afford you a new opportunity to repeat yet another misconception based in your belief.

When you can speak of things other than the text itself to understand the text, I may speak with you again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
^ naah, they only wrote evangelions ..... priests wrote the bible(s)
Priests wrote (re-wrote) the evangelions as well

Peace,
dave


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Old 12-19-2010, 05:50 PM #1858
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You're right, I don't own any of the original texts myself, but I do own and actively read several of their translations since I do not know Latin, Greek, or Hebrew.

Anyone has DOES have those 4+ years of study in such languages with tell you how the text gets even better.

But this does not justify me trusting the translations, as much as the original texts. But for me, I have to start somewhere.

But Dave, what if I can only accept two forms of truth? The Word of God, and the works of his hands. They are the only sources that appear to actually agree with one another. They are the only sources I see that don't come directly from a man's mind. How can I accept any one man's ideas, seeing how self destructive the man is? The universe had a beginning, the Earth is ancient, the animals were created into their own kinds, and man is the only being made in "the image of God".

These two truths are things I can apply to one another with success. But that does not mean that scripture should be verified by science as to prove its authority- nor should science be used to prove the scriptures authority. The Bible is supposed to stand on its own authority.

I will read what you would want me to, because I want to see things from YOUR perspective. I want to understand why you believe what you do.

I can google anything I want to, and it can lead me to some form of atheism, but what YOU would want me to know, won't necessarily be there at all.

@anselm, God didn't "write" anything except the ten commandments, and the "writing" on the wall. Would you say that God is incapable of having a man write without errors, after being inspired?
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:15 PM #1859
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

When I see proof that things in the bible are true, then I will believe in it. It was written by 4 guys that wrote what they were told was gods word. Who knows what they were drinking or smoking when they wrote it and it was their interpretation not what god actually said, if he actually exists or existed.

As far as catholics go there are some that would kill for the church and there are some that have, but there are people in every religion that are that way. All of the catholics that I know like to drink and so do I. I would rather be around people that don't have the holier than thou attitude like the mormons or some of the other people that think they are better than everyone else because they are of a certain religion or belief. I respect peoples beliefs and don't like it when they try to push their beliefs off on other people and convert them to their religion or beliefs.
They can all kiss my ass!

This is just my belief
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:24 PM #1860
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If the bible is supposed to be gods word, then he should have written it himself
(he is almighty after all, isn't he? he managed to carve those stone slabs for moses),
and not let some fallible, imperfect, vain, human being be responsible for it.
As soon as god lets someone else write it, it is out of HIS hands, and therefore,
in my opinion, it cannot be HIS word.
Even if HE would dictate it word for word, like a boss to his secretary,
to an 100% honorable and selfless man,
as soon as the first copies and translations are made, they will be changed, a little
each time, and so the text will lose it's divinity, because man has tampered with it.

The conclusion I get out of this train of thought is this:
GOD has no credits at all on the bible, instead it is man-written 1st page to last.

That is just my very own personal view on this.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:33 PM #1861
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
If the bible is supposed to be gods word, then he should have written it himself
(he is almighty after all, isn't he? he managed to carve those stone slabs for moses),
and not let some fallible, imperfect, vain, human being be responsible for it.
As soon as god lets someone else write it, it is out of HIS hands, and therefore,
in my opinion, it cannot be HIS word.
Even if HE would dictate it word for word, like a boss to his secretary,
to an 100% honorable and selfless man,
as soon as the first copies and translations are made, they will be changed, a little
each time, and so the text will lose it's divinity, because man has tampered with it.

That is just my very own personal view on this.
So you might say that God is incapable of having a man write something without error? In the definition of inerrancy, everything down to the stroke of the pen is included. How would the texts change? Would they say something different than before? Would it ruin the context?

Take note, that the men who wrote the old testament were writing what they were because of the things Jesus said. God himself came down and told us what we needed to know, and more. All the authors did, was quote, requote, and quote again what was said. Funny that they should all have the same thing to say about Jesus, and how to get to Heaven.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:33 PM #1862
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Giorge View Post
When I see proof that things in the bible are true, then I will believe in it. It was written by 4 guys that wrote what they were told was gods word. Who knows what they were drinking or smoking when they wrote it and it was their interpretation not what god actually said, if he actually exists or existed.

As far as catholics go there are some that would kill for the church and there are some that have, but there are people in every religion that are that way. All of the catholics that I know like to drink and so do I. I would rather be around people that don't have the holier than thou attitude like the mormons or some of the other people that think they are better than everyone else because they are of a certain religion or belief. I respect peoples beliefs and don't like it when they try to push their beliefs off on other people and convert them to their religion or beliefs.
They can all kiss my ass!

This is just my belief
I definitely agree with you.

There is one vice of which no man in the world is free; which every one in the world loathes when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people, except Christians ever imagine that they are guilty themselves....The essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastely, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind.…As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.
- C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
If the bible is supposed to be gods word, then he should have written it himself
(he is almighty after all, isn't he? he managed to carve those stone slabs for moses),
and not let some fallible, imperfect, vain, human being be responsible for it.
As soon as god lets someone else write it, it is out of HIS hands, and therefore,
in my opinion, it cannot be HIS word.
Even if HE would dictate it word for word, like a boss to his secretary,
to an 100% honorable and selfless man,
as soon as the first copies and translations are made, they will be changed, a little
each time, and so the text will lose it's divinity, because man has tampered with it.

That is just my very own personal view on this.
So you might say that God is incapable of having a man write something without error? In the definition of inerrancy, everything down to the stroke of the pen is included. How would the texts change? Would they say something different than before? Would it ruin the context?

Take note, that the men who wrote the old testament were writing what they were because of the things Jesus said. God himself came down and told us what we needed to know, and more. All the authors did, was quote, requote, and quote again what was said. Funny that they should all have the same thing to say about Jesus, and how to get to Heaven.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:36 PM #1863
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

@anselm Exactly, I feel the same way and do the stone tablets with the ten comandments really exist or were they just hearsay? As the saying goes "seeing is believing".
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:53 PM #1864
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I will agree that God would in fact be capable of having one man putting
down a hardcopy, a perfect 1-to-1 rendition of HIS intentions in a man-readable format.

History shows us that HE subsequently failed to keep that text in it's pure form....
Either that was his intentions (a prankster god who likes to confuse us?),
or HE has no control at all over mankind, or he simply doesn't care.
But if he doesn't care, then why bother in the first place?

Keep in mind, all this time I'm implying "IF god exists...", because in reality
I believe that he does not.

I think the bible is a very interesting book, it can teach one a lot, especially about
history, but IMHO it should never be taken verbatim.

Also, churches (as in organized religions) all always based on INTERPRETATIONS
of the bible (coran, torah...). These interpretations were thought up by human beings.
How can they ever hope to grasp HIS original meaning?
It will always be biased.

So I think it is ridiculous to regard the bible as an infallibe beacon of truth.
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Old 12-19-2010, 08:33 PM #1865
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I don't think it was written to be taken verbatim, I think it was meant for people to be decent and not be barbarians, treating each other with respect.
I could be wrong but like I said before it is just my belief and I know of others that agree.
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:47 PM #1866
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
the men who wrote the old testament were writing what they were because of the things Jesus said.
Don't you mean new?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Pride leads to every other vice
Let me be the first to point out you're parroting what someone else has said without analyzing it. Firstly, that's a slippery slope fallacy. Secondly, what about the guy that feels he can't amount to anything so he starts drugs? I can think of plenty of vices that don't stem from pride. What about an accomplishment of yours? Is it wrong to be proud of yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
As long as you are proud you cannot know God.
Also, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
that does not mean that scripture should be verified by science as to prove its authority
Exactly. It has to be taken on FAITH.
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:57 PM #1867
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

My Opinion is that if there is a GOD and I'm not saying there isn't He/She/It Started the Universe with the Big Bang, and then Left the Universe and Us to Our own devices. We sink or swim on Our own.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:19 AM #1868
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Giorge View Post
I don't think it was written to be taken verbatim, I think it was meant for people to be decent and not be barbarians, treating each other with respect.
I could be wrong but like I said before it is just my belief and I know of others that agree.
But religious people tend to commit more violent crimes, end up in prison more often, and even commit things they profess to consider sins more often. For example, protestants and catholics have the most abortions per capita of any religious group (I'm not saying that I personally think this is bad, just that they are more hypocritical as well as criminal). (this is all from abortionno.com, religiousconsultation.org, atheism.about.com, factcheck.org, lisashea.com, cdc.gov, etc.)

If anything, religion teaches us how to be barbarians.

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Originally Posted by Coherent Light View Post
My Opinion is that if there is a GOD and I'm not saying there isn't He/She/It Started the Universe with the Big Bang, and then Left the Universe and Us to Our own devices. We sink or swim on Our own.
Deism.
The only religion that is still logically relevant, considering how little we know about the big bang.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:23 AM #1869
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Coherent Light View Post
My Opinion is that if there is a GOD and I'm not saying there isn't He/She/It Started the Universe with the Big Bang, and then Left the Universe and Us to Our own devices. We sink or swim on Our own.
I believe Gnosticism falls somewhere along those lines. I think I'm going to try to find some more info on that...

I would also take any Google search results with a grain of salt. Remember any idiot can make a website and fill it with whatever he wants.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:27 AM #1870
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
But religious people tend to commit more violent crimes, end up in prison more often, and even commit things they profess to consider sins more often.
Intriguing. Mind linking to the studies?

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Old 12-20-2010, 05:32 AM #1871
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The Gnostic's sought TRUTH that is why they were destroyed by the main stream church. Gnosticism's root word in Greek is knowledge.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:51 AM #1872
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
Intriguing. Mind linking to the studies?

-Trevor
I'm not gonna go through and find every study I looked at, but here are a few, and I'm sure some are well cited.
Predominantly Atheist Countries Have Lowest Crime Rate According To Study - Nairaland
Atheist Empire: Atheist Population Statistics
Religion in prison populations.... are Atheists more ethical than Christians? Muslims less?
Prison Incarceration and Religious Preference
The results of the Christians vs atheists in prison investigation.
U.S. abortion data: Timing, age, race, access, etc.
Abortion Statistics
Religion = Highter Abortion Rate?
Abortions Highest Where Religion is Highest
Abortion Rates Higher for Religious Women
Christianity and the Murder Rate
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' - Times Online
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