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Old 12-15-2010, 03:53 PM #1809
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Lol Rules? What rules?

1 Corinthians 8-10

Chapter 10:23-33 is a focused wrap up of it all.

And as concerning slavery being "promoted" in the Bible, nothing could be further from the truth.

The Bible denounces slavery as sin.

The New Testament goes as far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars. 1 Timothy 1:10

Also, slavery within the the Old Testament context was sanctioned because of the economic realities of time, rather than by racial or ***ual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery.

A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave. (Exodus 22:3)

While the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it NEVER promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of Biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel, and the US. Ever read of John Newton's story?

I agree with you guys though, US Catholics seem to be lax in their everyday "living out the faith". Many Catholics in my town seem to only go to church, because that's all they've ever done on Saturdays. Though my roommate last year, was converted Catholic from Protestantism by philosophical means.


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Old 12-15-2010, 04:41 PM #1810
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
1.Are you? This reads like it was written by a 12 year old… This whole paragraph is so awful I suffered from major second-hand embarrassment.

2.There are plenty… I don't think you have a clue how many fanatic catholics there are (remember the crusades?)… You must be pretty sheltered…

3.Why would I trust you for that? You are literally one of the most biased people who could possible answer this question.

4.Seriously?

5.Ok… And?

6.According to who? Again, [citation needed]. I know plenty of catholics who are fanatics (and plenty more who are just stupid).

7.Umm… "I don't study much"? No offense, but you present yourself as a complete idiot… From your posts, I'd say I'm a hell of a lot more studied than YOU are…

8.Because I've studied history… I don't think you have, judging by the fact that you claim that catholics are the "chillest".

9.First off, it's "mayans"; second, not really. Third, they weren't christian. Christianity itself hasn't contributed to a single significant scientific advancement in its history (in fact, it's held back many), while many other religions have.

10.They are… but again, take your own advice. You are writing like a child and your ideas are barely coherent.

11.Nope. By pretty much any definition, there are many catholic fanatics.

12.No, not all catholics are fanatics, but if you believe in something like christianity it can certainly make you pretty stupid.

13.That's because money incontrovertibly exists… the things you believe in don't.




I dropped the pretense of respect/maturity in this thread a while back because it was clear none was deserved/none existed for most of the people I was arguing against. You are right, your PM box will stay empty because I know I'm just wasting my time arguing with a fanatic.

Edit:I see that you said you were "religious", not specifically christian, sorry for the mistake. But really, that doesn't change much.

that is one hell of an arguement you got there. i've been wrong my whole life. i must now become an atheist. LoL

I don't claim to know what happens after our life ends. BUT I do know that something that teaches us to love eachother, and respect eachother is a good thing... That is why i do not try to argue atheism.. I know many atheists that would never dream of hurting another human. I don't think atheism is bad, i don't want to sell you on my beliefs either. You're just an arrogant person that uses failed logic to tell somebody they are wrong, you're very combative for no reason.[

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Old 12-15-2010, 07:13 PM #1811
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Lol Rules? What rules?

1 Corinthians 8-10

Chapter 10:23-33 is a focused wrap up of it all.

And as concerning slavery being "promoted" in the Bible, nothing could be further from the truth.

The Bible denounces slavery as sin.

The New Testament goes as far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars. 1 Timothy 1:10

Also, slavery within the the Old Testament context was sanctioned because of the economic realities of time, rather than by racial or ***ual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery.

A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave. (Exodus 22:3)

While the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it NEVER promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of Biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel, and the US. Ever read of John Newton's story?

I agree with you guys though, US Catholics seem to be lax in their everyday "living out the faith". Many Catholics in my town seem to only go to church, because that's all they've ever done on Saturdays. Though my roommate last year, was converted Catholic from Protestantism by philosophical means.
Funny….
Does the Bible condone slavery?
Slavery in the Bible
The Bible and slavery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could find more, but I feel like the point is adequately made in those sites.
Looks like some more of those contradictions we were talking about, huh? It's weird that an infallible book is so self-contradictory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipdouglas View Post
that is one hell of an arguement you got there. i've been wrong my whole life. i must now become an atheist. LoL

I don't claim to know what happens after our life ends. BUT I do know that something that teaches us to love eachother, and respect eachother is a good thing... That is why i do not try to argue atheism.. I know many atheists that would never dream of hurting another human. I don't think atheism is bad, i don't want to sell you on my beliefs either. You're just an arrogant person that uses failed logic to tell somebody they are wrong, you're very combative for no reason.[

michael.
Yep, you've been wrong your whole life... I may be arrogant but that's only because it's so easy to be when you are arguing against a bible-banger. Also, my logic isn't failed, I think it's pretty airtight, just mixed in with some good old anti-stupidity insults.

Also, you realize that love and respect have nothing to do with theism vs atheism, right?
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:47 PM #1812
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Lol did you even READ any of those links you posted?

The first link you posted only further proves my point.

The second link uses scripture out of context, and doesn't consider that slavery at the time was not due to prejudice , but because of how the economy worked. You could buy yourself out of trouble by offering yourself as someone's slave.

The third talks about it, and gives useful background info from history to even further prove my point.

You can't google arguments against this. You your own head please. You're the one who is "better educated". Use your own knowledge and experience of the Bible instead.

"Also, you realize that love and respect have nothing to do with theism vs atheism, right?"

False. He was talking about how many religion actively teach such values. Atheism on its own teaches you next to nothing on such values since you're relying on other people's opinions and points of view.
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:03 PM #1813
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

i'm not a bible banger guywill, once again you show your arrogance, i mean ignorance. i haven't quoted or referred to scripture once. nor will i ever. you seem to be the only fanatic hear man..

and i second meatball, did you even read the links you posted?

michael.
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:13 PM #1814
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
Damn, this forum backs up at the worst times. I've lost so many lengthy posts because it backs up right when I would assume the majority of users happen to be posting... "brb 10 mins".


Anyway, TL;DR
You're right, "fanatic" is a bit harsh, yadda yadda, I would love to chat once I have some free time (finals this week), but most "discussions" on such hot topics (especially ones that aren't based in logic you can actually argue about) devolve into shit rather quickly. You should see this political "chat" I had with an australian cop over PM one time... it turned into "all americans are fat burger-eating pigs" faster than you can say "stereotype".

you're the only one turning this to shit.
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:43 PM #1815
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Lol did you even READ any of those links you posted?

The first link you posted only further proves my point.

The second link uses scripture out of context, and doesn't consider that slavery at the time was not due to prejudice , but because of how the economy worked. You could buy yourself out of trouble by offering yourself as someone's slave.

The third talks about it, and gives useful background info from history to even further prove my point.

You can't google arguments against this. You your own head please. You're the one who is "better educated". Use your own knowledge and experience of the Bible instead.

"Also, you realize that love and respect have nothing to do with theism vs atheism, right?"

False. He was talking about how many religion actively teach such values. Atheism on its own teaches you next to nothing on such values since you're relying on other people's opinions and points of view.
Ummm... from the first link:
"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery."

While you said:
"The Bible denounces slavery as sin." (sic)

Which is NOT true. I think you are the one who is not reading, my friend.

Blah, blah, excuses, excuses. The fact is that you are wrong and the bible is fine with slavery.

You are right, religion does actively teach values. Values such as that slavery is OK, killing homo***uals is OK, killing women and children is OK, rape is OK, etc. Certainly no problem with that.

Also, the entire christian bible is one big opinion. Atheism isn't something that can teach you subjective values... it's just another word for the truth.

@Chip
Yes, I read the links... see above.

As to your second post, you are the one with awful grammar, double posting, using stupid arguments that don't actually address the merit of a belief etc.
I've had plenty of good discussions on the internet, it just seems to turn bad when people such as yourself turn up in the argument.
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:04 AM #1816
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

you're combative for no reason. this is my last comment on the matter. what does my grammer have to do with anything? thats all you keep referring to.

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Old 12-16-2010, 04:40 AM #1817
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I'm combative because I hate it when people waste my time with stupid arguments. That's great that it's your last comment on the matter, more time for me to talk to someone who still has an argument. Your grammar is just one of the many problems I cited
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:02 AM #1818
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
Ummm... from the first link:
"The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery."

While you said:
"The Bible denounces slavery as sin." (sic)

Which is NOT true. I think you are the one who is not reading, my friend.

Blah, blah, excuses, excuses. The fact is that you are wrong and the bible is fine with slavery.

You are right, religion does actively teach values. Values such as that slavery is OK, killing homo***uals is OK, killing women and children is OK, rape is OK, etc. Certainly no problem with that.

Also, the entire christian bible is one big opinion. Atheism isn't something that can teach you subjective values... it's just another word for the truth.

@Chip
Yes, I read the links... see above.

As to your second post, you are the one with awful grammar, double posting, using stupid arguments that don't actually address the merit of a belief etc.
I've had plenty of good discussions on the internet, it just seems to turn bad when people such as yourself turn up in the argument.
Did you not read the verse I posted? It denounces it by comparing slave traders with murderers, and perverts etc. You're right, the Bible does not ever say "Slavery is bad". What else would you think is being implied by that verse? Slave traders by nature are bad, but not by what they do?

And guess what? The Bible still never says anything that promotes slavery.

"You are right, religion does actively teach values. Values such as that slavery is OK, killing homo***uals is OK, killing women and children is OK, rape is OK, etc. Certainly no problem with that.

Also, the entire christian bible is one big opinion. Atheism isn't something that can teach you subjective values... it's just another word for the truth."

Lol you think that sins are values? Those things are not values my friend. You have them mixed up with sins! Give me one place where the Bible teaches any of those things- as values as that!

Atheism teaches nothing at all! How does one define his OWN values as something like truth? Because he says so! That's comforting...

Atheism: A-No Theism-God.
So you "know" there is no God, eh? From your own perspective, (no more google searches for you my friend) how is it that you can confidently say, and be 100.000% sure that there is no creator above you?

It seems that you are proud of your "logic". You cling to it like you have nothing else. Don't you find it illogical that man continues to destroy himself, and the environment he live in? What is it that makes man SO illogical? To make war, to destroy his brother, to steal or to lie?

"There is one vice of which no man in the world is free; which every one in the world loathes when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people, except Christians ever imagine that they are guilty themselves....The essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastely, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind.…As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you."

I don't really think you've even read any of the Bible yourself. You seem to keep thinking that you "know" this or that about that Bible, when you're just making a perfect example of a typical Atheist that has simply been burned by Christians in some way. I don't care how, or by who, but you've obviously bunched me into a group of individuals that you despise, for whatever reason. You can call me a Bible thumper, but if about God, or the Bible, you continue to lie, I simply won't let it fly. Call me stupid, ignorant, or unintelligent, but I think that this thread cannot continue while we are both in it. I want to discuss religion (the thread topic), and you want to sit back and toss in your lack of religion down everyone's throat. Poor Mohrenburg above posted what he believed, and no one even listened.

As long as you are going to be posting in this thread, I will not. I can not, nor should I. I should go find me a theology forum somewhere and learn some apologetics.

Peace!
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:20 AM #1819
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Poor Mohrenburg above posted what he believed, and no one even listened.
Actually I did, and I think it's the best post since many a page
of this thread. It's so simple, true, honest and wise, here it is again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohrenberg View Post
I don't know if god exists and neither does anyone else. They just have faith.

Faith - "belief that is not based on proof" taken from dictionary.com

I've seen horrible things in the world. they happen every second of every day. If a god does exist, hes abandoned us.
most people NEED to believe. Otherwise it's all for nothing. Who you help, who you hurt, what you do and where you go when you die.. None of it would matter when we're gone and people cannot accept that. It's an extremely scary concept. Which is why I am so deathly afraid of..death (no pun intended)

But this fear will not make me entertain the absurd suggestions found in a christian bible.
@ossumguywill:
I'm an atheist too, and not very fond of any religion,
but you sir are just an (using your own language) idiot,
at least regardin this topic.
Incapable of having a proper conversation or making a good argument.
You just post links left and right and you don't even read them, or when
ou do you twist the meaning so it fits your sick ideas.
I've been reading but I don't have the energy to try to make you understand.
Anyway, it's a sisyphus' job trying to argue with you
I've had it with your childish rants, you are the 1st to make my ignore list.
*PLONK*
Congratulations on that.

Last edited by anselm; 12-16-2010 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:29 PM #1820
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

If GOD exists He/She/It is on the other side of the Big Bang, and not on this side.
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:20 AM #1821
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Did you not read the verse I posted? It denounces it by comparing slave traders with murderers, and perverts etc. You're right, the Bible does not ever say "Slavery is bad". What else would you think is being implied by that verse? Slave traders by nature are bad, but not by what they do?

1.And guess what? The Bible still never says anything that promotes slavery.

"You are right, religion does actively teach values. Values such as that slavery is OK, killing homo***uals is OK, killing women and children is OK, rape is OK, etc. Certainly no problem with that.

Also, the entire christian bible is one big opinion. Atheism isn't something that can teach you subjective values... it's just another word for the truth."

2.Lol you think that sins are values? Those things are not values my friend. You have them mixed up with sins! Give me one place where the Bible teaches any of those things- as values as that!

3.Atheism teaches nothing at all! How does one define his OWN values as something like truth? Because he says so! That's comforting...

4.Atheism: A-No Theism-God.
So you "know" there is no God, eh? From your own perspective, (no more google searches for you my friend) how is it that you can confidently say, and be 100.000% sure that there is no creator above you?

5.It seems that you are proud of your "logic". You cling to it like you have nothing else. Don't you find it illogical that man continues to destroy himself, and the environment he live in? What is it that makes man SO illogical? To make war, to destroy his brother, to steal or to lie?

6."There is one vice of which no man in the world is free; which every one in the world loathes when he sees it in someone else; and of which hardly any people, except Christians ever imagine that they are guilty themselves....The essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastely, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind.…As long as you are proud you cannot know God. A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you."

7.I don't really think you've even read any of the Bible yourself. You seem to keep thinking that you "know" this or that about that Bible, when you're just making a perfect example of a typical Atheist that has simply been burned by Christians in some way. I don't care how, or by who, but you've obviously bunched me into a group of individuals that you despise, for whatever reason. You can call me a Bible thumper, but if about God, or the Bible, you continue to lie, I simply won't let it fly. Call me stupid, ignorant, or unintelligent, but I think that this thread cannot continue while we are both in it. I want to discuss religion (the thread topic), and you want to sit back and toss in your lack of religion down everyone's throat. Poor Mohrenburg above posted what he believed, and no one even listened.

8.As long as you are going to be posting in this thread, I will not. I can not, nor should I. I should go find me a theology forum somewhere and learn some apologetics.

Peace!
1.Yes, the bible never promotes slavery, but it never denounces it, which you CLEARLY claimed. The point is that you are wrong.


2.
Murder in the Bible
This article points out places where the bible suggests murdering gays, women, and children. There are many other links from a quick google search, but this is the most convenient. Again, if your read the bible, you might remeber that Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

3.That's the point… atheism doesn't force you to do anything, while the bible certainly does. Most of the things the bible tells you to do are really stupid and dangerous. Atheism lets you decide what's right based on current moral constructions and the most up-to-date knowledge available.

4. I can't, because the god delusion is conveniently impossible to prove with our current methods. But by the same logic, you can't be 100% sure that the flying ********* monster or vishnu doesn't exist. In fact, you have no logical reasons to support your particular religion over any other belief.
Plus, if there is no need for a god to explain the way the universe works, why make one up?

5.You realize religion is the cause of most of those things, right? And yes, I find those actions illogical IF our motive is survival and/or optimum reproductive conditions. What is your point? My logic is no less sturdy just because people do stupid stuff… In fact, science can explain why man does those things.

6.Um, OK? Thanks.

7. I haven't been burned by christians, I just think (know, rather) that religion is the product of stupidity.

8. OK, go hang out with your deluded buddies on some prayer forum. Have fun!


Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
@ossumguywill:
I'm an atheist too
Right.
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:18 AM #1822
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

About the link above, you might want to check out those passages that were taken from the NLT. When I was doing a bunch of research last year trying to figure all this crap out, I found that it was agreed upon by scholars that it's not as accurate to the original Greek and Hebrew texts as other translations.

Not saying the passages aren't there in other translations, but you might want to check out those other translations and analyze them yourself to draw your own conclusions.

...

After typing the above and watching TV for a couple minutes, I got curious and looked it up myself. Here's the NIV translation of the context (and verse) from the first NLT verse that your link quotes:

Quote:
Law Courts

(8) If cases come before your courts that are too difficult for you to judge—whether bloodshed, lawsuits or assaults—take them to the place the LORD your God will choose. (9) Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is in office at that time. Inquire of them and they will give you the verdict. (10) You must act according to the decisions they give you at the place the LORD will choose. Be careful to do everything they instruct you to do. (11) Act according to whatever they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left. (12) Anyone who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God is to be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel. (13) All the people will hear and be afraid, and will not be contemptuous again.
Intriguing. I'm interested to see what Meatball and ossumguywill have to say. Thoughts?

-Trevor
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:23 AM #1823
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twhite828 View Post
About the link above, you might want to check out those passages that were taken from the NLT. When I was doing a bunch of research last year trying to figure all this crap out, I found that it was agreed upon by scholars that it's not as accurate to the original Greek and Hebrew texts as other translations.

Not saying the passages aren't there in other translations, but you might want to check out those other translations and analyze them yourself to draw your own conclusions.

...

After typing the above and watching TV for a couple minutes, I got curious and looked it up myself. Here's the NIV translation of the context (and verse) from the first NLT verse that your link quotes:
-Trevor
This alone should prove that no text is the immutable word of any god.

Try a quick read of :

"The Dark Side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerbe

for some historical info about the many re-writes

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:37 AM #1824
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
This alone should prove that no text is the immutable word of any god.

Try a quick read of :

"The Dark Side of Christian History" by Helen Ellerbe

for some historical info about the many re-writes

Peace,
dave
Certainly a downside of attempting to subscribe to a text as such.

-Trevor
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