Old 12-08-2010, 04:25 PM #1777
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Ah! I too can relate! The only difference is, I look at the things around me, and I see the result of one of two things:

1. Either billions of bits of self assembled pieces of matter and energy interacting with themselves to create and sustain the numerous systems of "nature"- a self initialized and self aware nature.

2. Or I see the design of a sovereign creator who planned, initialized and laid out the universe and its laws to support the systems that they decided would have to be in place for life to not only exist, but to flourish on Earth.

I look at the universe as a billiard table with 1080 balls on it. If God made the laws of nature, then shouldn't he be able to sink every ball on the break without breaking his own rules?


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Old 12-08-2010, 05:26 PM #1778
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I once had a much worse idea .....

We study bacteria, right ? ..... making ambients for them in Petri capsules (their "universe", after all), for see how they evolve ..... and, with the temporal scale differences, a pair of months of test, for us, can be some billion years of life, for a bacteria colony, right ? ..... and, for the bacteria colony, their own entire time can be a civilty age, for that what we know (at least, until the researcher throw the Petri capsule in a sterilizer) .....

Now, just wondering ..... if that what we call "God", is just a researcher from another dimensional plan with a different temporal scale, that is studying a bacteria colony (us) for a pair of their months ? ..... and, overall, how much far is our little "Petri capsule" from the sterilizer ? .....

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Old 12-08-2010, 10:34 PM #1779
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Nothing eh? Back it up then.

Flippantly saying, "Its the truth" gets you nowhere.

If you were a scientist, you would end up making costly presuppositions in your lab journal. Such an attitude makes for a horrible scientist.
No, a horrible scientist is someone who follows superstitions any semi-intelligent child would hold to be self-evidently false. If you want me to back it up, why don't you start here:Science - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And go on from there. Maybe if you're lucky and you try really hard, you can figure it out.
Occam's razor basically states that you can not make things up to explain stuff when you already have a perfectly logical explanation. If I can explain EVERYTHING about the human mind/body scientifically, I really shouldn't make up some stupid story about how some kind of ghost is actually a part of me that lives on in another universe after I die, because of course I am for some reason inherently special enough to do so.
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:37 PM #1780
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
2. Or I see the design of a sovereign creator who planned, initialized and laid out the universe and [blah]...
Ah, the old "it's complicated, so it must have a creator" nonsense. The universe is complicated, therefore, there must be a god. But you don't take the logic far enough. The creator of such a complexity must, in fact, be even MORE complex himself. So that must mean God has a creator.

Now I know what you're going to say. "God is the exception," but that is quite possibly the MOTHER of all cop outs and it's NOT how logic works. But let's say we accept this view. Here is where a quick slice and dice of occam's razor comes in handy. Your two choices seem to be

1. We are self-assembled.
2. We are creations of something else that was self-assembled.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:09 AM #1781
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You probably just never had it correctly explained to you:

In the beginning was the word
And the word was with god
And the word was god

See? That should help

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-09-2010, 03:07 AM #1782
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Ever browse this stuff for fun?

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Old 12-09-2010, 03:18 AM #1783
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
How Far?
Our petri dish was supposed to be dumped into the sterilizer a long time ago, but our "researcher" actually loves us. He loved us way more than he loved any research subject, he decided he would become a little single celled organism with us, and then throw himself into the sterilizer for us, so that we wouldn't have to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
No, a horrible scientist is someone who follows superstitions any semi-intelligent child would hold to be self-evidently false. If you want me to back it up, why don't you start here:Science - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And go on from there. Maybe if you're lucky and you try really hard, you can figure it out.
Occam's razor basically states that you can not make things up to explain stuff when you already have a perfectly logical explanation. If I can explain EVERYTHING about the human mind/body scientifically, I really shouldn't make up some stupid story about how some kind of ghost is actually a part of me that lives on in another universe after I die, because of course I am for some reason inherently special enough to do so.
We're not talking about a ghost. We're talking about the part of you, that makes you unique. Your ideas, thoughts, and choices. Its your "person". The very element that personifies you.
Your incessantly condescending remarks keep coming back to science. Your error is in this.

"Science is the acquisition of reliable but not infallible knowledge of the real world, including explanations of the phenomena."

"Knowledge comes in many forms, and science is only one approach to it acquisition. Science is among a group of approaches where understanding is gained through research. This group also includes humanities, mathematics, and logic.

Other aspects of knowledge are the belief fields, religion, ethics, morality, and political ideology. They deal with what is right and wrong, and good or bad. These approaches are not inferior to science because they simply deal with other types of phenomena."

You can use science to try and better understand God through what he has made, but not to determine whether he exists, or is good or bad.

And hey, guess what? No one is making anything up. Ever read the gospels? Those were accounts of eye-witnesses, and those in direct communication with those who were eye-witnesses. Read a random sentence in a gospel and ask yourself, "Why would someone make this up?" "Why would several people from different perspectives make this up?"

Its not about believing that you're special enough for Christ to come and die for you. Its about accepting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Ah, the old "it's complicated, so it must have a creator" nonsense. The universe is complicated, therefore, there must be a god. But you don't take the logic far enough. The creator of such a complexity must, in fact, be even MORE complex himself. So that must mean God has a creator.

Now I know what you're going to say. "God is the exception," but that is quite possibly the MOTHER of all cop outs and it's NOT how logic works. But let's say we accept this view. Here is where a quick slice and dice of occam's razor comes in handy. Your two choices seem to be

1. We are self-assembled.
2. We are creations of something else that was self-assembled.
I never played that card- because its subjective. God is not MORE complicated by your sense. He is, always has been, and always will be. The point is, God is infinite.

That means you can't keep going back to, "Well where did HE come from? And where did HE come from?" You HAVE to have an ultimate infinity.

The singularity before the big bang was not just simply there from nowhere- for example. There was definitely something that began that universal process of trying to reach entropy. The process might have been the big bang, but something infinite had to have put it in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
You probably just never had it correctly explained to you:

In the beginning was the word
And the word was with god
And the word was god

See? That should help

Peace,
dave
"Word" in this context translated from the Greek "λόγος Logos".

Or, "as applicable to the messiah"

or His "Word" by what he laid the foundations of the Earth with.

Using science where it is inapplicable, and using ancient Greek texts out of context are both good ways to get off track.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:26 AM #1784
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Our petri dish was supposed to be dumped into the sterilizer a long time ago, but our "researcher" actually loves us. He loved us way more than he loved any research subject, he decided he would become a little single celled organism with us, and then throw himself into the sterilizer for us, so that we wouldn't have to.
What a shitty scientist... this researcher must have been a complete d*ckhead.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
1.We're not talking about a ghost. We're talking about the part of you, that makes you unique. Your ideas, thoughts, and choices. Its your "person". The very element that personifies you.
Your incessantly condescending remarks keep coming back to science. Your error is in this.

"Science is the acquisition of reliable but not infallible knowledge of the real world, including explanations of the phenomena."

2."Knowledge comes in many forms, and science is only one approach to it acquisition. Science is among a group of approaches where understanding is gained through research. This group also includes humanities, mathematics, and logic.

3.You can use science to try and better understand God through what he has made, but not to determine whether he exists, or is good or bad.

4.And hey, guess what? No one is making anything up. Ever read the gospels? Those were accounts of eye-witnesses, and those in direct communication with those who were eye-witnesses. Read a random sentence in a gospel and ask yourself, "Why would someone make this up?" "Why would several people from different perspectives make this up?"

5.Its not about believing that you're special enough for Christ to come and die for you. Its about accepting it.



6.I never played that card- because its subjective. God is not MORE complicated by your sense. He is, always has been, and always will be. The point is, God is infinite.

That means you can't keep going back to, "Well where did HE come from? And where did HE come from?" You HAVE to have an ultimate infinity.

The singularity before the big bang was not just simply there from nowhere- for example. There was definitely something that began that universal process of trying to reach entropy. The process might have been the big bang, but something infinite had to have put it in place.



"Word" in this context translated from the Greek "λόγος Logos".

Or, "as applicable to the messiah"

or His "Word" by what he laid the foundations of the Earth with.

Using science where it is inapplicable, and using ancient Greek texts out of context are both good ways to get off track.
1.That's not a soul… that's the brain.
2.Who said that? Science encompasses math AND logic (you could say they are all the same).
3.Funny, because logic dictates that there is no god.
4.Because it's an organized religion… can you explain to me why hindus have a completely different creation myth than you, but with the same credibility?
5.BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
How does it feel to be a brainwashing victim?
6.This is what happens when logicians try smoking crack and writing fiction at the same time.
This is probably the worst logical argument I've ever heard. You are postulating so many false ideas it's ridiculous.


Even with this argument, can bible-thumpers even answer the basic questions posed by science? Why does the bible claim the earth is only a few thousand years old? Why does the bible claim the earth is fixed in space? Why does the bible ignore the existence of other continents? Why does the bible ignore the observable phenomenon of evolution? Why does the bible fail to establish a moral standard that we can use today (slavery is no longer OK, for example)? Why is the bible so self-contradictory if it is infallible? If the bible is infallible, do you believe A & !A can be true? If you believe A & !A can be true, why do you put any faith into your understanding of the universe, which is at least partially based on logic? The list goes on...
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:40 AM #1785
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

i'm surprised i haven't read 1 person combine god and science by saying god created creationism and evolution LoL. my god did it all hee-hee.


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Old 12-09-2010, 05:02 AM #1786
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
What a shitty scientist... this researcher must have been a complete d*ckhead.





1.That's not a soul… that's the brain.
2.Who said that? Science encompasses math AND logic (you could say they are all the same).
3.Funny, because logic dictates that there is no god.
4.Because it's an organized religion… can you explain to me why hindus have a completely different creation myth than you, but with the same credibility?
5.BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
How does it feel to be a brainwashing victim?
6.This is what happens when logicians try smoking crack and writing fiction at the same time.
This is probably the worst logical argument I've ever heard. You are postulating so many false ideas it's ridiculous.


Even with this argument, can bible-thumpers even answer the basic questions posed by science? Why does the bible claim the earth is only a few thousand years old? Why does the bible claim the earth is fixed in space? Why does the bible ignore the existence of other continents? Why does the bible ignore the observable phenomenon of evolution? Why does the bible fail to establish a moral standard that we can use today (slavery is no longer OK, for example)? Why is the bible so self-contradictory if it is infallible? If the bible is infallible, do you believe A & !A can be true? If you believe A & !A can be true, why do you put any faith into your understanding of the universe, which is at least partially based on logic? The list goes on...
Your arguments are laughable. The brain is an organ, not what makes you, you. Its how you use it.

Who said it? Read "The Scientific Endeavor" by Jeffrey A. Lee
A secular author.

Your logic is subjective. Logical is also circumstantial. You want to talk logic? Ever hear of Sir Francis Bacon?

He and Descartes established the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In "De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium", Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Even though his work was based on experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity."

What credibility does a Hindu have? They have true religion. They try to better themselves.

Smoking crack? Is that your argument? Are you thinking??

They were fishermen, tax collectors, carpenters, and persecutors of Christians.

Tell me this, WHERE does the Bible claim that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?? I think you will not find it anywhere.

Christians ignorant to science claim it does, but no where does it say, or imply. Learn Hebrew, and you'll find that there is no limit to the age of the Earth as Genesis allows.

Where does it say the Earth is fixed in space? Velocity is a vector, and very relative.

Where does it ignore other continents? Are you reading from a global point of view? I think so..

Where does it ignore micro-evolution? Micro is observable, and evidential. Macro is evidential, but NOT observable.

WHERE does the Bible say that slavery is ok?? Where do you get these wild notions? Does it HAPPEN in the Bible? Or is it taught in the Bible? Are you looking AT THE CONTEXT?

Give me one contradiction, USED IN CONTEXT.

Read the thing, and you might learn a thing or two.

Sheesh, at least Dave knows how to use context.

O wait, you're already a scientist, AND a Biblical expert.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:14 AM #1787
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
Even with this argument, can bible-thumpers even answer the basic questions posed by science? Why does the bible claim the earth is only a few thousand years old? Why does the bible claim the earth is fixed in space? Why does the bible ignore the existence of other continents? Why does the bible ignore the observable phenomenon of evolution? Why does the bible fail to establish a moral standard that we can use today (slavery is no longer OK, for example)? Why is the bible so self-contradictory if it is infallible? If the bible is infallible, do you believe A & !A can be true? If you believe A & !A can be true, why do you put any faith into your understanding of the universe, which is at least partially based on logic? The list goes on...
what we know today about science is based on years of knowledge passed down. you shout out e=mc2 like it's a punchline at a cocktail party. but really think about science and the true pioneers of science. do you think there were thinkers like that in the bilblical days. come on man. please argue, but fairly.

michael.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:46 AM #1788
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by daguin View Post
.....
In the beginning was the word
And the word was with god
And the word was god
.....
Why this structure resemble me some more ancient spellcasting ?

"I am the door, and the key of the door, and the guardian of the door ....."





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Our petri dish was supposed to be dumped into the sterilizer a long time ago, but our "researcher" actually loves us. He loved us way more than he loved any research subject, he decided he would become a little single celled organism with us, and then throw himself into the sterilizer for us, so that we wouldn't have to.
..... Global Thermonuclear War, anyone ? ..... ( )
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:17 PM #1789
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Why this structure resemble me some more ancient spellcasting ?

"I am the door, and the key of the door, and the guardian of the door ....."

Chanting has been a part of "religion" since the first humans invented religion (probably before )

This is one of the theories behind why "Christianity" blossomed in the world. There were many "versions" of the bible before it. However, it was with the publication of the King James Version that Christianity really started to take off. The text had gotten to the point where it was "enjoyable" to be read "out loud." Linguistic techniques such as this not only made it nice to "hear", but it made it easier to remember as well.

@Meatball -- My quotation from Genesis was secular humor. However, your comment exposes another central problem with organized religion today. The holy books have all gone through repeated translations. If the book is the inviolable word of god and was translated by scholars who were "divinely inspired", how can it have changed so much through history, and more especially, why did those changes so closely follow the beliefs/needs/desires of the potentate of the time?

If god's word is law, from whence springeth the protestations of Martin Luthur? How could god's word be have been torn asunder by man? How could that schism in the law be allowed to survive? Were biblical scholars simply "wrong" for those last 1400 years? Did god change his mind and then forget to tell the catholics? They were here first and maintained the belief for all that time, you know.

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-09-2010, 02:56 PM #1790
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

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.....The holy books have all gone through repeated translations. If the book is the inviolable word of god and was translated by scholars who were "divinely inspired", how can it have changed so much through history, and more especially, why did those changes so closely follow the beliefs/needs/desires of the potentate of the time? .....
Permit me to say one of my old, bad jokes, inspired to Alan Ford comics, about this point (with absolutely no intention to offend anyone)

How much "zeroes" you use, for write "divine inspiration" ?

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Old 12-09-2010, 03:12 PM #1791
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by HIMNL9 View Post
Permit me to say one of my old, bad jokes, inspired to Alan Ford comics, about this point (with absolutely no intention to offend anyone)

How much "zeroes" you use, for write "divine inspiration" ?

Ahhhhh, the plenary indulgence -- Building cathedrals since the year zero

Also, the basis of one of my favorite movies of all time (Dogma)

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:30 PM #1792
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Its not about believing that you're special enough for Christ to come and die for you. Its about accepting it.
It IS about belief. That's why it's called faith.



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Read a random sentence in a gospel and ask yourself, "Why would someone make this up?" "Why would several people from different perspectives make this up?"
The bible was written many, many years after the time in question. Also, "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful."

ALL of Greece believed in a thunder God. Someone obviously made him up. But why? WHY would someone make up not just one God, but SEVERAL. Not only that, but an intricate back-story to the whole farce. And to get someone to believe you? THAT must be tricky. Now try to convince an entire country. How can THAT MANY people be fooled?

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What credibility does a Hindu have? They have true religion.
So why aren't you a Hindu? (hint: geography)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
Give me one contradiction, USED IN CONTEXT.
Flat-out denying there are any contradictions in the bible is laughable, and I'm not even going to address it. I will however...

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WHERE does the Bible say that slavery is ok?? Where do you get these wild notions?
Well, they're not usually selected for Sunday's mass

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-8
Ephesians 6:5
Colossians 3:22
Exodus 21:7-8
Luke 12:42-48
Exodus 21:20-21
Deuteronomy 15:17

But I'm sure all of those were just out of context
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