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Old 12-06-2010, 01:14 AM #1761
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ash View Post

1) Of course within dreams we can be/do or imagine whatever we want. Imagination is unbounded and infinite.
But (for me) the "floating up (or rolling out) from my physical body" feeling is quite different from the feeling of being conscious in a dream. It's difficult to explain, but it feels much more "real" (and scary) than a lucid dream (which is pleasant and fun). Also, I would like to mention that the techniques are quite different. Lucid dreaming (for me) occurs in the middle of the night while in a deep (REM) sleep almost spontaneously. The OOBE experience (for me) occurs when my body is fading into sleep, but my mind maintains consciousness and it takes quite a bit of dilligence to "make it through" the paralysis, intense vibrations, and startling sound before I can break free. Also, I have never seen my sleeping body in a lucid dream. I can assure you they seem quite different to me.
2), 3), 4)... If that is your interpretation, fine. I could go with that. Perhaps I'm consciously "hallucinating" that I have a "spirit" in order to deal with my fear of death. But, wait. I don't think I fear death at all. I am actually looking forward to it. But, that probably ties-in with my "un wavering persistence" that I have a "spirit".
Seems like I am in a rut with no way out. Fuck!
5) Contrary evidence? Please elaborate... Where are there scientific studies that establish the fact that we have no "soul" or "spirit"? I'm not being sarcastic. I really am interested in reading about the methods employed to attain such a conclusion.
7) Great question. Well I guess there is no real "need" for any of this.

Perhaps I simply want others to consider that there may be more to us than just a physical body seeking carnal pleasures, and there is a possibility that our consciousness may exist past the death of our physical body.
I'm not here to "convince" anyone one way or the other. I'm just trying to help people see a different perspective.
1) You keep returning to your "feelings." Yet you appear to be unwilling to recognize that your "feelings" are simply more electrochemical processes in your brain. Your brain can make your "feel" any way or anything you want it to This one feels different than that one so it must be different?

2) I didn't say anything about fearing death. The brain fears the unknown. Death is one of them. You have come up with an explanation to allow you to "know" this unknowable. Therefore you have nothing to fear. This is the same process by which organized religions "help" their adherents. The main point is that since the brain cannot imagine not existing, it builds a scenario in which the afterlife will allow it to continue to exist. Problem with the unknown? -- solved

5) I did not say that there was evidence that the soul does not exist. That is impossible. One cannot prove that something does not exist. One can only prove that something does exist. We can say that there has never been any empirical observation of one, but we cannot say that there is not one.

My point was in reference to the "experiences" you rely on to prove that there is something other than this corporeal existence (OOBE, astral projection, etc.) There is lots of data that shows that all of these experiences can be and have been duplicated in the lab and in the world, through purely physical means. Since they can all be experienced without the need of a "spirit", why would we need one. All of these things can be and have been experienced without the need of an immortal and immutable spirit. If you have not, read up a bit on Occam's Razor."

6) I didn't ask what you want, feel, or believe. Those things are pretty clear. I asked you "Why?" I asked you to explore YOUR motivation for trying to help others to "know what you know."

You might also look into the concept of the "looking glass self" and "in-group vs. out-group"

Peace,
dave


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Old 12-06-2010, 04:14 AM #1762
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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1) You keep returning to your "feelings." Yet you appear to be unwilling to recognize that your "feelings" are simply more electrochemical processes in your brain. Your brain can make your "feel" any way or anything you want it to This one feels different than that one so it must be different?

2) I didn't say anything about fearing death. The brain fears the unknown. Death is one of them. You have come up with an explanation to allow you to "know" this unknowable. Therefore you have nothing to fear. This is the same process by which organized religions "help" their adherents. The main point is that since the brain cannot imagine not existing, it builds a scenario in which the afterlife will allow it to continue to exist. Problem with the unknown? -- solved

5) I did not say that there was evidence that the soul does not exist. That is impossible. One cannot prove that something does not exist. One can only prove that something does exist. We can say that there has never been any empirical observation of one, but we cannot say that there is not one.

5a) My point was in reference to the "experiences" you rely on to prove that there is something other than this corporeal existence (OOBE, astral projection, etc.) There is lots of data that shows that all of these experiences can be and have been duplicated in the lab and in the world, through purely physical means. Since they can all be experienced without the need of a "spirit", why would we need one. All of these things can be and have been experienced without the need of an immortal and immutable spirit. If you have not, read up a bit on Occam's Razor."

6) I didn't ask what you want, feel, or believe. Those things are pretty clear. I asked you "Why?" I asked you to explore YOUR motivation for trying to help others to "know what you know."

You might also look into the concept of the "looking glass self" and "in-group vs. out-group"

Peace,
dave
1) I absolutely realize that my "feelings" are simply due to electro-chemical reactions in my physical brain, but (to me) that is only one part of it. There is also my interpretation of those chemical reactions.
Some people percieve fear as a horrible/scary feeling, others thrive off of fear and percieve it as a thrilling experience. You are missing half my point in 1) above. I was not stating that "just because it feels different" it is. If you continued to read my answer, I explained that the process/mechanics is/are different and (to me) an OOBE is not the same as a lucid dream. The brain is in a different state, and the experiences are quite different. Read this for a simple explanation: link
2) I think your blanket statement "the brain fears the unknown" is too vague to be accurate. I have no idea of the exact mechanics of rocket science or the process of manufacturing drywall, but I don't fear either. There are many unknowns that people do not fear. IMO, your statement should have a caveat.
-side question- (may be personal)... Dave, do you fear death? Is the process/result/effect not an unknown for you somehow?
5a) Please explain how the OOBE-Projection experience has been duplicated in a lab by purely physical means (I do not want a recount of the processes [flogging, magnetics, deprivation, etc.] that we discussed earlier).
What physical object had the experience? Surely not a Human, as we have not conclusively proven or disproven that there is/is not such a thing as the human "spirit" or "soul". This (to me) appears to be an invalid argument.
Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one
I agree, but to me the explanation of an "energy body" or "soul" is more plausible than not. But this is my perception, so it is subjective.
6) I don't know what my motivation is for trying to help others. It's probably due to my upbringing in a loving family and my belief in Karma. I try to help as many people as I can whenever I can. I'm not really sure that I am helping anyone at all on this specific topic other than to stimulate people to question what they have learned and form an independent conclusion for themselves.
I don't believe the "looking glass self" or "in vs out group" concepts apply very much to me as I typically act how I want regardless of other's perceptions of me. I do what I do because it's rewarding to me, not to generate some perception (in others) that I am a certain way nor to fit into some group or "clique".
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:04 AM #1763
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
1) I absolutely realize that my "feelings" are simply due to electro-chemical reactions in my physical brain, but (to me) that is only one part of it. There is also my interpretation of those chemical reactions.
Some people percieve fear as a horrible/scary feeling, others thrive off of fear and percieve it as a thrilling experience. You are missing half my point in 1) above. I was not stating that "just because it feels different" it is. If you continued to read my answer, I explained that the process/mechanics is/are different and (to me) an OOBE is not the same as a lucid dream. The brain is in a different state, and the experiences are quite different. Read this for a simple explanation: link
2) I think your blanket statement "the brain fears the unknown" is too vague to be accurate. I have no idea of the exact mechanics of rocket science or the process of manufacturing drywall, but I don't fear either. There are many unknowns that people do not fear. IMO, your statement should have a caveat.
-side question- (may be personal)... Dave, do you fear death? Is the process/result/effect not an unknown for you somehow?
5a) Please explain how the OOBE-Projection experience has been duplicated in a lab by purely physical means (I do not want a recount of the processes [flogging, magnetics, deprivation, etc.] that we discussed earlier).
What physical object had the experience? Surely not a Human, as we have not conclusively proven or disproven that there is/is not such a thing as the human "spirit" or "soul". This (to me) appears to be an invalid argument.
Occam's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one
I agree, but to me the explanation of an "energy body" or "soul" is more plausible than not. But this is my perception, so it is subjective.
6) I don't know what my motivation is for trying to help others. It's probably due to my upbringing in a loving family and my belief in Karma. I try to help as many people as I can whenever I can. I'm not really sure that I am helping anyone at all on this specific topic other than to stimulate people to question what they have learned and form an independent conclusion for themselves.
I don't believe the "looking glass self" or "in vs out group" concepts apply very much to me as I typically act how I want regardless of other's perceptions of me. I do what I do because it's rewarding to me, not to generate some perception (in others) that I am a certain way nor to fit into some group or "clique".
I think I am about done here

1) I read your entire post. Everything you are reporting are subjective "feelings." One "feels" different so you believe it is different. I studied metaphysics and parapsychology in the 70's. I know the different phenomenon. You may notice that not one of those schools survives today and that none of the schools active today are accredited.

2) There is no requirement for a "soul" to have these experiences. No "object" has had any of these. As far as we know, only humans delude themselves like this.

You do not want to talk about the lab processes by which these have been attained, but you want me to come up with more? You haven't shown any of them to be invalid yet.

That is NOT Occam's Razor. Having a soul would be the "simplest" explanation. I have a soul. It lives forever, End of discussion.

Understanding psychology, sociology, physiology, and cultural knowledge is MUCH more complex. Occam's Razor does not require the simplest explanation. It requires that you add nothing that does not need to be added in order for the phenomenon to occur (necessity and sufficiency). Everything you have held up as "proof" can be explained without the need of a soul or any sort of after death "survival."

6) It is obvious that you did not read anything about what I suggested nor did you do any real thought about what your motivation was. Thinking to oneself, "I don't know" is NOT critical thought. This one point alone is enough to end this discussion for me.

You believe because you believe. However, that is not good enough for you, so you come up with "proofs" and try to get others to "see" that truth. Then when I question what you are trying to get me to see, you ask me to disprove what you "feel." I cannot nor will not try to disprove your feelings. They are completely subjective.

As long as you are not hurting others or yourself, I do not care what you believe. I was trying to get you to accept yourself and your beliefs so you could move on to more important things.

I do not fear death. I understand what that emotion springs from. Nor do I look forward to death. I am having way too much fun. When I die, all the fun stops. There is no eternal damnation or 72 white grapes awaiting my spirit. I will not be going home or being reborn in a new body. There is a "tunnel" caused by the visual cortex being deprived of oxygen and then the cessation of all stimuli. It will not bother me. I will not be able to "notice" that cessation.

I have probably no more than about 20 more years (probably less) to have fun and help humanity survive. I have no time to waste taking imaginary trips to France for fresh brie or sitting somewhere where I am told what I must do to avoid death.

Have a nice life. Try not to hurt yourself or others.

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:46 PM #1764
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ash View Post
to me the explanation of an "energy body" or "soul" is more plausible than not.
There IS no universally accepted explanation of a soul and how it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
One cannot prove that something does not exist.
There's an alligator in Dave's pants right now. He can't prove me wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
1) I absolutely realize that my "feelings" are simply due to electro-chemical reactions in my physical brain, but (to me) that is only one part of it. There is also my interpretation of those chemical reactions.
The funny part is that your "interpretation" is yet more chemical reactions.
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Old 12-06-2010, 11:35 PM #1765
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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There IS no universally accepted explanation of a soul and how it works.
And no legitimate scientist accepts the idea of a soul at all... LOL.
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:21 AM #1766
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

You can't convince someone against their will, all you do is make an enemy.
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Old 12-07-2010, 01:05 AM #1767
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I think I am about done here

Have a nice life. Try not to hurt yourself or others.

Peace,
dave
I'm not trying to upset you at all. It seems you are taking my responses the wrong way and are missing the point(s) in my posts.
Sorry.


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Old 12-07-2010, 02:28 AM #1768
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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And no legitimate scientist accepts the idea of a soul at all... LOL.
I would be cautious trying to get away with such a statement... it is very broad, and very bold. Just be ready to back such statements up.

You have no more reason to doubt "souls" than any scientist has for accepting a part of himself he cannot explain with numbers, or physical measurements.
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:18 AM #1769
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I'm not trying to upset you at all. It seems you are taking my responses the wrong way and are missing the point(s) in my posts.
Sorry.

I'm not upset at all. I just will not continue a discussion in which the other party looks at a word and decides he knows the concept that word represents.

You have the right to your beliefs. You are not trying to test them. You believe them because you believe them. There is nothing wrong with faith. I just like people to know why they believe, and accept their faith, that's all.

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-07-2010, 03:36 AM #1770
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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I would be cautious trying to get away with such a statement... it is very broad, and very bold. Just be ready to back such statements up.

You have no more reason to doubt "souls" than any scientist has for accepting a part of himself he cannot explain with numbers, or physical measurements.
Ie. nothing.

It's the truth. Unless you're the kind of scientist from bob jones university, you don't believe in the soul... I'm ready to back that statement up.
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:06 AM #1771
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
Ie. nothing.

It's the truth. Unless you're the kind of scientist from bob jones university, you don't believe in the soul... I'm ready to back that statement up.
Nothing eh? Back it up then.

Flippantly saying, "Its the truth" gets you nowhere.

If you were a scientist, you would end up making costly presuppositions in your lab journal. Such an attitude makes for a horrible scientist.
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Old 12-07-2010, 04:51 AM #1772
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

i think that ossumeguy might have a different interpretation of the word soul. it isn't a ghost, or an extenal entity that leaves you when you die. to me it is that x factor inside all humans.


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Old 12-07-2010, 04:57 AM #1773
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I like that interpretation chip, for me, that "x" factor cannot be ignored. That "me" behind my thoughts, actions and feelings. Its what makes them "mine".

“You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.”
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:32 PM #1774
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Hey guys! i'm new here! Amazing forum! love it!
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:19 AM #1775
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
“You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.”
I really really like that interpretation Meatball. +1

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
I just like people to know why they believe, and accept their faith, that's all.

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Old 12-08-2010, 01:24 PM #1776
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Talking Re: LPF's Religion

My "faith", at the moment, is exactly as in the words from an old song from Pooh band .....

"Vorrei saperlo anch'io se un Dio che vede tutto c'e' o non c'e', ma intanto che lo aspetto io credo in quel che vedo intorno a me" .....

(can be translate, more or less, as "I would like to know too, if a God who see all do exist or not, but while I wait for him I believe in that what I see around me" ..... )



@Meatball: hey, please don't be so reductive ..... i'm not "just a soul" ..... i'm (at least) an eptadimensional matrix of self-conscious bioelectrical interacting force fields, that temporarily occupate in holographic form a tridimensional organic matrix ..... sometimes also known as ..... er ..... well, ok, as "soul" ..... (damn ..... need more caffeine ..... )
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