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Old 12-04-2010, 05:36 PM #1745
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
I hate to sound like a smartass, but that's a bad analogy because the .jpg
does physically exist, as a magnetic recording on his harddrive.
The disc itself is obviously physical, and the fact that the jpg is there
is expressed by a certain, discrete state that physical device finds itself in.

Haha this thread is a great subscription!
True, but the same goes for the brain... memories, active configuration etc. are all held inside proteins. I guess a more accurate way of saying it would be "It doesn't physically exist except in a symbolic sense".


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Old 12-04-2010, 06:51 PM #1746
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
I hate to sound like a smartass, but that's a bad analogy because the .jpg
does physically exist, as a magnetic recording on his harddrive.
Then the mind DOES physically exist in the brain as synapses and impulses.
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Old 12-04-2010, 07:27 PM #1747
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I totally agree with that.
In fact, I think that was just my point.
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Old 12-04-2010, 07:48 PM #1748
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Then the mind DOES physically exist in the brain as synapses and impulses.
We study the brain and the mind as distinct but interdependent constructs.

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Old 12-04-2010, 11:46 PM #1749
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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We study the brain and the mind as distinct but interdependent constructs.
Indeed. We can't yet make sense of the activity we see. But it is there and it is doing something.

It's like showing someone the raw output of an OC768 line and asking him to extract the data. No google allowed
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:50 PM #1750
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyparagon View Post
Indeed. We can't yet make sense of the activity we see. But it is there and it is doing something.

It's like showing someone the raw output of an OC768 line and asking him to extract the data. No google allowed
LOL, pretty good example... as soon as we develop some sort of JTAG for the brain we're basically set to understand exactly how every neuron interacts. We probably could be doing that by now, barring the stringent limitations put on modern bioscience.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:55 PM #1751
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Based on nothing but my own reasoning, I believe that the mind is a combination of the physical, chemical, and electrical.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:53 AM #1752
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
1. To me, it's apparent that you are lying to yourself, but I don't blame you for not seeing that... the human brain is also excellent at self-deception.

2. Your OOBEs are in all likelihood simply the results of lucid dreaming/epileptic seizing (or another neurological condition, there are many). Many people are deluded in to believing them to be real. (I'm sorry for being blunt here, but I don't want to waste time beating around the bush.) These seizures/hallucinations (they are not always one and the same) can be induced intentionally as well, which gives us a legitimate medical explanation for such things.

3. And your last argument, the one about scientists not being able to reproduce it in a lab, is one of the stupidest and most annoying arguments I get from spiritualists/people who don't understand physics on the internet. Just because scientists can't achieve 10nm transistor fabrication inside a laboratory doesn't mean 10nm transistors are impossible. It just means we haven't done it yet. Every little facet of the mind can be explained chemically, and anyone with basic logical skills will tell you that if you can explain something rationally, there's no reason to go around making up BS about how it can be explained by a god, by the idea of a soul, etc.

4. Sorry for being a grump, but I hear this ALL OVER THE INTERNET and every single person thinks that their deluded experience makes them special somehow....
1. Perhaps I am lying to myself, but I'm not too worried about it. We all lie to ourselves to make life easier. Although my interpretation of the experience may be incorrect, I have not found a better explanation.
If you have any input on what exactly is happening when it feels like I leave my body, please share it.
If someone could provide a clear scientific explanation of why it feels like I am separated from my body during these experiences, I would greatly appreciate it. For now, all I have to go by is my perception and (clearly deluded) interpretation.
2. My OOBEs (albeit very rare) are quite different than lucid dreams as I have experience with both. look up: etheric/astral projection
They are not seizures, and are not due to a neurological condition. They are induced intentionally.
It took quite a bit of practice and years of Transcendental Meditation before I was able to even begin to control my consciousness while my brain is in a deep delta brainwave state.
3. Whoa. Don't get me wrong. I said nothing about "god" or any type of religion. Please don't group me with religious nuts who try to convince others of the existence of "god" or a "soul" by debunking science. I have quite a firm grip on physics and chemistry, and agree that one day we may be able to create 10nm transistors, but I doubt that it is possible to synthesize a "mind". Sure, we may even eventually be able to scientifically explain (prove or disprove) the existence of a non-physical aspect to ourselves (soul). But for now it's clearly not possible.
4. Not even. I don't think I am any different (physically) than anyone else. We all dream and (temporarily) lose "touch" with our physical body every night. I am simply relaying my experience in the hopes that it will cause people to think a bit about the difference between the "brain" and the "mind" and the possibility of existence outside of the physical body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
1.) You have NEVER left your brain
2.) Your statement fits the description I gave earlier perfectly

3.) There is a "non-physical" aspect to all of us. It is called the mind. However,it is rooted to the brain. When the brain ceases to function, the mind ceases to exist.

4.) Once again, your concept of "home" fits the scientific research about the desired continuity of experience.4a.) OOBE's are nothing special. OOBE's can be and have been created in the lab by magnetic stimulation of the brain, by sleep deprivation, by manipulation of blood gases (oxygen vs. carbon dioxide balances), and throughout history by fasting, extended prayer, self flagellation, and the use of psychoactive substances.

5.) There is a significant difference between religiosity and spirituality. You are not religious, but you are spiritual. Unfortunately, the reason for both are from the same human need. Your belief is absolutely based in "faith." It just doesn't have a recognizably popular "face" on it

6.) Your "too profound" statement is probably the most arrogant statement I have ever heard (and I am more than just a bit of an arrogant a$$h0le myself and deal with PhD's every day) Your belief that your personal experience is so profound that mere humans may not be capable of understanding it, borders on megalomania (and sounds amazingly like a statement that would be made by an adherent of Eckankar).

Your beliefs and experiences are yours to hold. However, when you begin to belittle, devalue, and insult others based on those beliefs, you have started down the road that leads to genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Peace,
dave
1.) I (my mind) may have never left my brain, but during these experiences I feel (and see) a clear separation from (and can look down upon) my physical body. Why is this? How am I able to observe my sleeping body from a distance?
2.) Which description?
3.) Perhaps the "mind" does not exist after brain-death, as the mind is seemingly a by-product of the brain. "Mind" may be the wrong term to describe it, but I feel that there is a type of conscious existence after physical death. It's just not on a level that any scientist would consider "living" in any way.
4.) Actually, I could care less if we actually do continue to exist (in one form or another) after physical death. This is not the driving force for me. I am just trying to interpret my experiences in a rational way, and I feel that I have experienced that I am more than simply my physical body.
4a.) True OOBEs are nothing special, and have been induced by the methods you describe (as well as others) throughout the centuries. All of the methods are used to create an "exhausted" body, and this combined with an "active" mind enables (what I am calling) an apparent separation of the "mind" or "soul" from the "brain & body". Many people find lucid dreaming much easier when they are in an exhausted state, OOBEs are just one or more steps deeper.
5.) Yes. I absolutely believe in some sort of "spirit" within each of us, and for me it has nothing to do with "religion" or an all-knowing or all-seeing invisible dude in the sky (or wherever), but it is not because I fear death in any way, or desire to exist past this life on Earth. I could honestly care less if there was no existence after, but I feel there is something more to us humans than most of us realize.
6.) I didn't mean to come off as arrogant, but some things are difficult for people (without experience or wisdom) to comprehend. I am just trying to help people think about the possibility of a non-physical aspect to themselves that may exist beyond this physical life on Earth.
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Old 12-05-2010, 06:23 AM #1753
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Okay, I guess I'm just sort of confused by this... how do you know your OOBEs aren't just imagination? It's not exactly hard for your mind to fabricate an image of what you look like from the third person.
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Old 12-05-2010, 06:26 AM #1754
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Thats what mirrors are for
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Old 12-05-2010, 11:18 AM #1755
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by Ash View Post
It took quite a bit of practice and years of Transcendental Meditation before I was able to even begin to control my consciousness while my brain is in a deep delta brainwave state.
TM is fine as long as you don't believe everything John Hagelin says,
or believe in the Maharishi-effect, for that matter. That's my only
real beef with them.
I too did practice for a while when I was younger, because of my parents.
After a few years of not feeling any particular results I got bored and stopped.

Apart from that, it's a great relaxation technique.

Quote:
I (my mind) may have never left my brain, but during these experiences I feel (and see) a clear separation from (and can look down upon) my physical body. Why is this? How am I able to observe my sleeping body from a distance?
A good dose of ketamine will give you an experience like that too: it all happens inside the mind. You don't actually leave your body.

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Old 12-05-2010, 12:14 PM #1756
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Thats what mirrors are for
Mirrors reflects reverted images ..... and not all the times undeformed .....
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Old 12-05-2010, 02:38 PM #1757
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
1.) I (my mind) may have never left my brain, but during these experiences I feel (and see) a clear separation from (and can look down upon) my physical body. Why is this? How am I able to observe my sleeping body from a distance?
2.) Which description?
3.) Perhaps the "mind" does not exist after brain-death, as the mind is seemingly a by-product of the brain. "Mind" may be the wrong term to describe it, but I feel that there is a type of conscious existence after physical death. It's just not on a level that any scientist would consider "living" in any way.
4.) Actually, I could care less if we actually do continue to exist (in one form or another) after physical death. This is not the driving force for me. I am just trying to interpret my experiences in a rational way, and I feel that I have experienced that I am more than simply my physical body.
4a.) True OOBEs are nothing special, and have been induced by the methods you describe (as well as others) throughout the centuries. All of the methods are used to create an "exhausted" body, and this combined with an "active" mind enables (what I am calling) an apparent separation of the "mind" or "soul" from the "brain & body". Many people find lucid dreaming much easier when they are in an exhausted state, OOBEs are just one or more steps deeper.
5.) Yes. I absolutely believe in some sort of "spirit" within each of us, and for me it has nothing to do with "religion" or an all-knowing or all-seeing invisible dude in the sky (or wherever), but it is not because I fear death in any way, or desire to exist past this life on Earth. I could honestly care less if there was no existence after, but I feel there is something more to us humans than most of us realize.
6.) I didn't mean to come off as arrogant, but some things are difficult for people (without experience or wisdom) to comprehend. I am just trying to help people think about the possibility of a non-physical aspect to themselves that may exist beyond this physical life on Earth.
1) The mind can conjure dragons. Why would you think that it cannot conjure a picture of yourself on a bed? Even in lucid reaming, it is all still a dream. It is just being intentionally manipulated. You can make yourself dream that you are a gecko (or a disembodied spirit) on the ceiling looking down at your prostrate form. Then that gecko can sprout wings (or a jet pack) and fly off to Paris for fresh brie.

2) The description of a logical mind WANTING to know the unknowable and so making up a story to satisfy its need for a "continuity of existence/experience."

3) Here is where "faith" enters into it. It is not the Catholic faith or the Buddhist faith, or the Santarian faith, but it is faith non-the-less. You believe it because you "feel" it. Because you want to believe it. Despite any rational, pragmatic, workable explanation, you continue to hold the belief by faith.

4) You DO care. Otherwise you would not have gone through all the trouble of not only "figuring all of this out" for yourself, but to actually create scenarios in which it has been "proven" for you by personal experience

4a) Even though you are perfectly aware that OOBE's. lucid dreaming, astral projection, and "the god experience" can be intentionally created by purely physical processes, you hold these things up as proof of a non-corporeal spirit. That, my friend, is faith

5) Once again. You DO care. You have built an entire belief system for yourself to explain and describe that persistence of survival and a continuity of experience after death. Because you base it on your "feelings" in the face of contrary evidence, you are living the life of faith. People who do not care, simply accept that they cannot know because they accept that there is nothing to know.

6) All people of faith believe that their faith and knowledge somehow make them more "special" than those with different beliefs or no beliefs. They believe that if others would just "try it out" and accept their beliefs that all of their concerns would be washed away by the realization of "truth." I railed at your statement to show you that, that "feeling" is what leads to organized religion, discrimination, genocide, and ethnic cleansing.

You do all of this "trying to show others" for the same reason that I spend time typing this for you. You care about others. You do not want them to "miss out" on the good feelings you enjoy. You want to share with them.

You say you do this to "help them." Explore your personal motivation for this desire/need to help them. Help them to do or be what? Why do they need that help? From whence springs the real need?

I know my motivation. I know why I have it. I know the physical, psychological, and sociological processes from which that need springs, both in myself and in society. Do the self exploration I have asked above. When you have the answers to the questions, you can finally actually "accept" your "faith" (so you can stop trying to "prove" it) and move on with life or you can recognize why you are not yet satisfied and find a new path.

We cannot escape faith. It is part of our brain's structure. Even science, is based in a leap of faith.

Peace,
dave
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

LOL!

Ad Campaign Promoting Atheism Across U.S. Draws Ire and Protest - ABC News

A fanatic is a fanatic regardless of the beliefs

If you want to have some "fun", google "religion poll"

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Old 12-05-2010, 08:11 PM #1759
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I think it's difficult to be a fanatic when you're promotic public education...

Edit:
I just searched "religion poll", I've seen that before. The people who know the most about religion are as follows (IIRC):
Atheists
Agnostics
Jews
Mormons

No big surprise there...

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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by anselm View Post
A good dose of ketamine will give you an experience like that too: it all happens inside the mind. You don't actually leave your body.
Sounds great. I'm immediately going to trade in my TM practice for a big-ol bag of K.
Seriously though. Been there, done that and I know that Ketamine aint for me. I find the k-hole uncomfortable to be in, and the drips are massively painful (to me).
Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
1) The mind can conjure dragons. Why would you think that it cannot conjure a picture of yourself on a bed? Even in lucid reaming, it is all still a dream. It is just being intentionally manipulated. You can make yourself dream that you are a gecko (or a disembodied spirit) on the ceiling looking down at your prostrate form. Then that gecko can sprout wings (or a jet pack) and fly off to Paris for fresh brie.

2) The description of a logical mind WANTING to know the unknowable and so making up a story to satisfy its need for a "continuity of existence/experience."

3) Here is where "faith" enters into it. It is not the Catholic faith or the Buddhist faith, or the Santarian faith, but it is faith non-the-less. You believe it because you "feel" it. Because you want to believe it. Despite any rational, pragmatic, workable explanation, you continue to hold the belief by faith.

4) You DO care. Otherwise you would not have gone through all the trouble of not only "figuring all of this out" for yourself, but to actually create scenarios in which it has been "proven" for you by personal experience

4a) Even though you are perfectly aware that OOBE's. lucid dreaming, astral projection, and "the god experience" can be intentionally created by purely physical processes, you hold these things up as proof of a non-corporeal spirit. That, my friend, is faith

5) Once again. You DO care. You have built an entire belief system for yourself to explain and describe that persistence of survival and a continuity of experience after death. Because you base it on your "feelings" in the face of contrary evidence, you are living the life of faith. People who do not care, simply accept that they cannot know because they accept that there is nothing to know.

6) All people of faith believe that their faith and knowledge somehow make them more "special" than those with different beliefs or no beliefs. They believe that if others would just "try it out" and accept their beliefs that all of their concerns would be washed away by the realization of "truth." I railed at your statement to show you that, that "feeling" is what leads to organized religion, discrimination, genocide, and ethnic cleansing.

You do all of this "trying to show others" for the same reason that I spend time typing this for you. You care about others. You do not want them to "miss out" on the good feelings you enjoy. You want to share with them.

7) You say you do this to "help them." Explore your personal motivation for this desire/need to help them. Help them to do or be what? Why do they need that help? From whence springs the real need?

I know my motivation. I know why I have it. I know the physical, psychological, and sociological processes from which that need springs, both in myself and in society. Do the self exploration I have asked above. When you have the answers to the questions, you can finally actually "accept" your "faith" (so you can stop trying to "prove" it) and move on with life or you can recognize why you are not yet satisfied and find a new path.

We cannot escape faith. It is part of our brain's structure. Even science, is based in a leap of faith.

Peace,
dave
1) Of course within dreams we can be/do or imagine whatever we want. Imagination is unbounded and infinite.
But (for me) the "floating up (or rolling out) from my physical body" feeling is quite different from the feeling of being conscious in a dream. It's difficult to explain, but it feels much more "real" (and scary) than a lucid dream (which is pleasant and fun). Also, I would like to mention that the techniques are quite different. Lucid dreaming (for me) occurs in the middle of the night while in a deep (REM) sleep almost spontaneously. The OOBE experience (for me) occurs when my body is fading into sleep, but my mind maintains consciousness and it takes quite a bit of dilligence to "make it through" the paralysis, intense vibrations, and startling sound before I can break free. Also, I have never seen my sleeping body in a lucid dream. I can assure you they seem quite different to me.
2), 3), 4)... If that is your interpretation, fine. I could go with that. Perhaps I'm consciously "hallucinating" that I have a "spirit" in order to deal with my fear of death. But, wait. I don't think I fear death at all. I am actually looking forward to it. But, that probably ties-in with my "un wavering persistence" that I have a "spirit".
Seems like I am in a rut with no way out. Fuck!
5) Contrary evidence? Please elaborate... Where are there scientific studies that establish the fact that we have no "soul" or "spirit"? I'm not being sarcastic. I really am interested in reading about the methods employed to attain such a conclusion.
7) Great question. Well I guess there is no real "need" for any of this.

Perhaps I simply want others to consider that there may be more to us than just a physical body seeking carnal pleasures, and there is a possibility that our consciousness may exist past the death of our physical body.
I'm not here to "convince" anyone one way or the other. I'm just trying to help people see a different perspective.
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