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Old 12-03-2010, 03:37 AM #1729
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
I have to agree, but also disagree as well as explain a bit how the universe (physical & non-physical reality) actually functions. *
True there is no actual "afterlife" because ones "life" ends when their physical body dies. But, there is existence after physical death. Just not in the same sense that 92.43% of humans are comfortable with.

Dave, I feel I have to debate your second point. Humans actually do have the capacity for conceiving non-existence, most just don't want to.
I agree that the "brain" is there to process input, but the "mind" is capable of imagination and abstract thought. This is where the after-death idea comes in.
When the human physical life is over, the mind-thought energy (most religions call it your "soul") still persists (wether you believe it or not [athiest-agnostic]). It simply does not exist in the "physical plane" (it never has). It exists on a different plane (akin to a dream [dreams are not physical in any way, they are purely "mental"]).
Simply put: when humans die here on Earth they go back "home" where they were "before" this physical life. We will be outside of physical "time" and physical "space" (as we know it).

*you don't have to believe, this is how it is, period. No choice/belief/punishment involved.
And you "know" this... HOW?


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Old 12-03-2010, 07:03 AM #1730
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Rapture is one of the 2 things I am even remotely fearful of.
Rapture is one step away from fanaticism and that is one step away from terrorism.
I went to a friend's church when she was getting baptized and the dude up front gave me a serious case of the heebie jeebies.
He was saying stuff like "I can command you, through god to fall upon your knees with only my little finger"
And people were frikken doing it!
This idiot is wielding the power of rapture like a kid with daddies .22.
Who says this guy doesn't go off the deep end (more so) and tell everyone that "god wants you to go out and kill the jews"
Religion just seems like a form of self imposed blindness. Ash's comments are his own beliefs but case in point.
He believes it, so it is true and there isn't a person in the world that could convince him otherwise.
Reminds me of a show a long time ago where god was tired of people telling others what "his words" were and came down to earth to set everyone straight.
Long story short, they killed god for not following "god's word"
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:11 PM #1731
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
I have to agree, but also disagree as well as explain a bit how the universe (physical & non-physical reality) actually functions. *
True there is no actual "afterlife" because ones "life" ends when their physical body dies. But, there is existence after physical death. Just not in the same sense that 92.43% of humans are comfortable with.

Dave, I feel I have to debate your second point. Humans actually do have the capacity for conceiving non-existence, most just don't want to.
I agree that the "brain" is there to process input, but the "mind" is capable of imagination and abstract thought. This is where the after-death idea comes in.
When the human physical life is over, the mind-thought energy (most religions call it your "soul") still persists (wether you believe it or not [athiest-agnostic]). It simply does not exist in the "physical plane" (it never has). It exists on a different plane (akin to a dream [dreams are not physical in any way, they are purely "mental"]).
Simply put: when humans die here on Earth they go back "home" where they were "before" this physical life. We will be outside of physical "time" and physical "space" (as we know it).

*you don't have to believe, this is how it is, period. No choice/belief/punishment involved.
-from a Scientific American article -
  • Almost everyone has a tendency to imagine the mind continuing to exist after the death of the body.
  • Even people who believe the mind ceases to exist at death show this type of psychological-continuity reasoning in studies.
  • Rather than being a by-product of religion or an emotional security blanket, such beliefs stem from the very nature of our consciousness.

The mind can indeed imagine abstract concepts. However, this is one that it cannot get a handle on. The reason that education/intelligence = lower religiosity (as opposed to spirituality) is that the more one "knows" the more one realizes that they cannot "know" everything. It is not that they imagine it. It is that they accept that they cannot know it.

Stop for a moment and actually try to imagine what it is going to feel like to be completely devoid of any sensory input.

It is not just dark because you are in a "box" under ground. You can "see" dark, can't you? It is not just dark. There is no visual input to measure.

It is not just a comfortable temperature that requires no reaction. It is neither cold nor warm. You cannot "feel" anything with your skin.

It is not just "quiet." You can "hear" quiet, can't you? Even in a sound chamber, you can "hear" the air molecules banging against your eardrums. You can at least hear the "ringing" in your ears. No, now there is nothing.

It is not that there is nothing to smell. It is not that when you "sniff" you detect no odor. You cannot "sniff" to know that there is no odor. You do not even know that you cannot sniff!

The brain cannot imagine "not existing" because there is nothing to "know." The brain can only deal with active perception.

You have developed (or were given) a very personal explanation to avoid this lack of input. I have absolutely no problem with that. No matter how educated or intelligent one is, one still MUST pay homage to the fact that you ARE a physical brain. One can ignore the fact, but it remains a fact.

I do NOT dislike or disrespect religious or spiritual people. I do not believe that anyone should. Religion satisfies a need of the human mind. I only react to people who do harm in the name of their religion or try to "save" me from myself (or who are actively seeking real answers).

As long as you do not begin to run the Shiites off of their land and hack their children to death because of that belief, I can and will respect your brain's need to avoid this fact.

Peace,
dave

P.S. -- Dreams (as with ALL cognition) ARE a physical process of the brain. People under chemical sedation do not dream.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:38 PM #1732
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
-

Stop for a moment and actually try to imagine what it is going to feel like to be completely devoid of any sensory input.


P.S. -- Dreams (as with ALL cognition) ARE a physical process of the brain. People under chemical sedation do not dream.
that sentance has bothered me my whole life. i actually get panic attacks when think about that.

michael.
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:33 PM #1733
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipdouglas View Post
that sentance has bothered me my whole life. i actually get panic attacks when think about that.

michael.
The brain HATES not knowing.
Thinking about this concept, makes it face that unknowable.

Truly, there be dragons there

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:43 PM #1734
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

i know all about it. i'm not scared of the process of death. it's knowing that i will cease to exist one day.

michael.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:06 PM #1735
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

I am rather adversed to all mainstream religions, mainly because I'm a science guy
so until the day they can actually measure god and publish a peer-reviewed paper
about it, I simply reject his existance.
And also because of all the millions of deaths that were caused by religions over
the centuries.

I consider myself an atheist with sometimes agnostic tendencies.
The only "religions" I would consider are

Discordianism and
The Flying ********* Monster

But then again, those are joke religions, meant to show how absurd
real religions are.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:32 PM #1736
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Many here already know this, but I call myself a Christian. And I hope you all can see that I try to act out what I believe, instead of saying I believe one thing, and then living against it. If I were trying to live LIKE a Christian, without really believing, then I would be getting "religious". Blech.

I'm a Bible believer, so that means I'm an old-Earth creationist. I accept the theories that science gives us for the origins of the universe's current state, and reject theories that God could not have ultimately been an active part of. I've actually found many parallels to what science says, and what the Bible says about the universe.

Another reason I believe, and one of the reasons I came back to the Bible after some time of doubt, is the notion that man seems to be unnaturally good at destroying himself. The magnitude of the self destruction that he throws upon himself and others is something that I can only explain as something beyond his "imperfections". Our self destruction is very... illogical at least, so I have to say there is something else underneath it all, something stronger that drives our will to kill another man. The Bible seems to be the only one that consistently defines this is as sin.

So I found that man's hopelessness IS something different. Not just man's instincts or our somehow self derived ambition to survive.

But I'm no philosopher, I like talking about science instead. Hence... LPF!

I've learned LOTs from the folks here!
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:56 PM #1737
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
I have to agree, but also disagree as well as explain a bit how the universe (physical & non-physical reality) actually functions. *
True there is no actual "afterlife" because ones "life" ends when their physical body dies. But, there is existence after physical death. Just not in the same sense that 92.43% of humans are comfortable with.

Dave, I feel I have to debate your second point. Humans actually do have the capacity for conceiving non-existence, most just don't want to.
I agree that the "brain" is there to process input, but the "mind" is capable of imagination and abstract thought. This is where the after-death idea comes in.
When the human physical life is over, the mind-thought energy (most religions call it your "soul") still persists (wether you believe it or not [athiest-agnostic]). It simply does not exist in the "physical plane" (it never has). It exists on a different plane (akin to a dream [dreams are not physical in any way, they are purely "mental"]).
Simply put: when humans die here on Earth they go back "home" where they were "before" this physical life. We will be outside of physical "time" and physical "space" (as we know it).

*you don't have to believe, this is how it is, period. No choice/belief/punishment involved.
Umm, you're kidding, right? Otherwise you are EXACTLY the kind of person who dave is describing, whether you believe in organized religion or not. Descartes dualism (what your post represents) doesn't have a shred of scientific evidence behind it, it's basically just a religion...

And trust me, you can't even remotely imagine nothingness. You have never experienced it, and your brain is not capable of imagining it. What do you imagine a lack of sound input sounds like (WITH a functioning brain)?




If you said/thought "silence", you're wrong. This is the default response, and just goes to show how we automatically assume a lack of input is the same as a lack of sound/light/etc, and that we are incapable of imagining lack of input even while your brain is still active. A true lack of audible input is experienced by the brain as a ringing sound, and of course it's impossible for you to imagine not perceiving anything.

So anyway, if you're serious, you're just falling into the same trap that many humans do, the idea that your mind will live on in any way/go somewhere else when you die. It's a chemical reaction, nothing more. Sorry.
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Old 12-04-2010, 01:29 AM #1738
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

It gets tougher for me to believe in god when I see things in science like this: ksl.com - NASA finds new life form
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Old 12-04-2010, 03:56 AM #1739
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by brando132 View Post
And you "know" this... HOW?
Experience: specifically; OOBEs as well as Lucid Dreaming & Etheric Projection
Quote:
Originally Posted by daguin View Post
...edit...

1. You have developed (or were given) a very personal explanation to avoid this lack of input. I have absolutely no problem with that. No matter how educated or intelligent one is, one still MUST pay homage to the fact that you ARE a 2. physical brain. One can ignore the fact, but it remains a fact.
...
Peace,
dave

P.S. -- Dreams (as with ALL cognition) ARE a physical process of the brain. People under chemical sedation do not dream.
1. I have experienced (numerous times) perception outside of the physical body and know that we (humans) 2. are actually more than just a brain controlling a bag of blood, muscle, bone, fat, enzymes, oxygen, water, etc... The brain is simply an organ, mothing more.
-There is actually a non-physical aspect to all of us, and wether one is in touch with that aspect of themselves (or even believes it) while they are on Earth, does not have any bearing on the fact that our minds actually do exist after the physical life ends. When ones physical life ends, it is quite a comfortable feeling to be "home" again.
-This concept has nothing to do with any type of religious perspective or "faith". I am not a religious person at all. I just know what I have experienced and it is clear to me. I'm sorry that the concept may be too profound for some to understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
Umm, you're kidding, right? Otherwise you are EXACTLY the kind of person who dave is describing, whether you believe in organized religion or not. Descartes dualism (what your post represents) doesn't have a shred of scientific evidence behind it, it's basically just a religion...
Um, not kidding at all.
Sure, my view resembles "substance dualism" but this is the first time I have ever heard that term (or read philosophy on the subject). I speak from my personal observations, not from any philosophical, religious, or scientific text.
I know what I know, nobody has to believe it at all. I am just trying to share my perspective and perhaps help people begin to understand the true nature of the human organism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post

1. And trust me, you can't even remotely imagine nothingness. You have never experienced it, and your brain is not capable of imagining it. 2. What do you imagine a lack of sound input sounds like (WITH a functioning brain)?
3. it's impossible for you to imagine not perceiving anything.
1. True, I have not experienced nothingness, but I have experienced conscious existence outside my physical body, and it's not very fun (quite scary at first).
2. We all experience a lack of sound input every night when we dream. You know that when you are deeply dreaming, you do not hear the "silent-hiss" of the room nor the barking dog next door, right? You are completely in your own head. Your mind shuts of (most) sensory input (including conscious brain activity) when you dream.
-Pay very close attention to your auditory input as you fall asleep (if you can maintain conscious awareness), you can actually hear your connection shut off and it is extremely loud (usually a pop or crackling-sound). It is typically just after image-visualization begins (and consciousness fades). It may seem strange how we can hear, see, feel, taste, and smell things while we are dreaming. It is not due to "sensory input" at all, this information is generated internally.
3. Also true. I have no basis to generate a thought pattern centered on lack of perception. I have never experienced lack of perception, so I can not imagine it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
A true lack of audible input is experienced by the brain as a ringing sound.
Really? Deaf people hear a ringing all the time? How annoying that must be for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
So anyway, if you're serious, you're just falling into the same trap that many humans do, the idea that your mind will live on in any way/go somewhere else when you die. It's a chemical reaction, nothing more. Sorry.
I have not fallen into any traps, nor am I counting on this idea to "take" me somewhere after I die.
I know that I am (sooner or later) going to die, and I'm actually looking forward to it a bit. Of course, I'm not in any hurry, there is still a lot of shit to do while I''m here.
-And I have to correct you on your last point. The mind is not a chemical reaction. If it were, scientists would be able to reproduce it in a lab. To date, this has not been achieved.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:27 AM #1740
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

The fact that we can't create something doesn't mean it isn't chemical.
I read somewhere that scientists had created a single celled organism, the thing was only "alive" of something like 20 seconds and had to be in a completely controlled environment.
Even the crappiest single celled organisms on earth boast a far greater resilience.
Still, not too bad for a first attempt. We'll be creating 4 assed monkeys before you know it
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:06 AM #1741
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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Originally Posted by 00Giorge View Post
It gets tougher for me to believe in god when I see things in science like this: ksl.com - NASA finds new life form
Damn it, I hate the media...
Scientists have known about that "new life form" for years now, and it's nothing remarkable. It can simply use arsenate instead of phosphate as a bonding agent. It's about as cool as the fact that our teeth can use fluorapatite instead of hydroxyapatite to create enamel (ie. not that interesting). Just because our teeth can substitute minerals doesn't mean that we can live on other planets.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash View Post
Um, not kidding at all.
Sure, my view resembles "substance dualism" but this is the first time I have ever heard that term (or read philosophy on the subject). I speak from my personal observations, not from any philosophical, religious, or scientific text.
I know what I know, nobody has to believe it at all. I am just trying to share my perspective and perhaps help people begin to understand the true nature of the human organism.

1. True, I have not experienced nothingness, but I have experienced conscious existence outside my physical body, and it's not very fun (quite scary at first).
2. We all experience a lack of sound input every night when we dream. You know that when you are deeply dreaming, you do not hear the "silent-hiss" of the room nor the barking dog next door, right? You are completely in your own head. Your mind shuts of (most) sensory input (including conscious brain activity) when you dream.
-Pay very close attention to your auditory input as you fall asleep (if you can maintain conscious awareness), you can actually hear your connection shut off and it is extremely loud (usually a pop or crackling-sound). It is typically just after image-visualization begins (and consciousness fades). It may seem strange how we can hear, see, feel, taste, and smell things while we are dreaming. It is not due to "sensory input" at all, this information is generated internally.
3. Also true. I have no basis to generate a thought pattern centered on lack of perception. I have never experienced lack of perception, so I can not imagine it.

Really? Deaf people hear a ringing all the time? How annoying that must be for them.

I have not fallen into any traps, nor am I counting on this idea to "take" me somewhere after I die.
I know that I am (sooner or later) going to die, and I'm actually looking forward to it a bit. Of course, I'm not in any hurry, there is still a lot of shit to do while I''m here.
-And I have to correct you on your last point. The mind is not a chemical reaction. If it were, scientists would be able to reproduce it in a lab. To date, this has not been achieved.
Do you think Jesus was inspired by another religious text when he came up with his whole "I am the son of god" thing? No, he was probably just speaking from personal experience as well (schizophrenia is a hell of a disorder).

To me, it's apparent that you are lying to yourself, but I don't blame you for not seeing that... the human brain is also excellent at self-deception.

Your OOBEs are in all likelihood simply the results of lucid dreaming/epileptic seizing (or another neurological condition, there are many). Many people are deluded in to believing them to be real. (I'm sorry for being blunt here, but I don't want to waste time beating around the bush.) These seizures/hallucinations (they are not always one and the same) can be induced intentionally as well, which gives us a legitimate medical explanation for such things.

When you dream, you are not experiencing a lack of sound. In fact, your brain is completely aware of ambient sound but certain parts of your brain simply ignore the real sound. (I believe they "simulate" sound as well, so no part of you ever actually experiences a lack of audio.) If I detonated a firecracker next to your head, would you not wake up from the sound? Do alarm clocks not work when you are dreaming? Sorry, but you don't have this right. Even during sleep, every sensation continues to be monitored, sound especially. (The caveman who got woken up by the charging animal's footsteps had more babies than the one who didn't.)

I have actually experienced the lapse in sound you are describing, the jacuzzi-tub at my old house did an excellent job of putting me in this state, but what I heard was not a "lack" of sound, just dim noise (probably resembling pink noise, due to the bassy quality of the "silence").

And as you said, this is not a lack of input, just artificially generated input.

Perhaps you underestimate the plasticity of the brain-people who can hear only perceive the lack of audio input as a ringing sound because they are not used to it. A deaf person would not be "annoyed" by the sound as there is no sound. It is perfectly normal to them, just like the taste of saliva is normal to us so our brain ignores it.

And your last argument, the one about scientists not being able to reproduce it in a lab, is one of the stupidest and most annoying arguments I get from spiritualists/people who don't understand physics on the internet. Just because scientists can't achieve 10nm transistor fabrication inside a laboratory doesn't mean 10nm transistors are impossible. It just means we haven't done it yet. Every little facet of the mind can be explained chemically, and anyone with basic logical skills will tell you that if you can explain something rationally, there's no reason to go around making up BS about how it can be explained by a god, by the idea of a soul, etc.

Of course, as dave mentioned, it's one of our baser instincts to do just that...

Sorry for being a grump, but I hear this ALL OVER THE INTERNET and every single person thinks that their deluded experience makes them special somehow....
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Old 12-04-2010, 09:46 AM #1742
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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1. I have experienced (numerous times) perception outside of the physical body and know that we (humans) 2. are actually more than just a brain controlling a bag of blood, muscle, bone, fat, enzymes, oxygen, water, etc... The brain is simply an organ, mothing more.
-There is actually a non-physical aspect to all of us, and wether one is in touch with that aspect of themselves (or even believes it) while they are on Earth, does not have any bearing on the fact that our minds actually do exist after the physical life ends. When ones physical life ends, it is quite a comfortable feeling to be "home" again.
-This concept has nothing to do with any type of religious perspective or "faith". I am not a religious person at all. I just know what I have experienced and it is clear to me. I'm sorry that the concept may be too profound for some to understand.
1.) You have NEVER left your brain
2.) Your statement fits the description I gave earlier perfectly

There is a "non-physical" aspect to all of us. It is called the mind. However,it is rooted to the brain. When the brain ceases to function, the mind ceases to exist.

Once again, your concept of "home" fits the scientific research about the desired continuity of experience. OOBE's are nothing special. OOBE's can be and have been created in the lab by magnetic stimulation of the brain, by sleep deprivation, by manipulation of blood gases (oxygen vs. carbon dioxide balances), and throughout history by fasting, extended prayer, self flagellation, and the use of psychoactive substances.

There is a significant difference between religiosity and spirituality. You are not religious, but you are spiritual. Unfortunately, the reason for both are from the same human need. Your belief is absolutely based in "faith." It just doesn't have a recognizably popular "face" on it

Your "too profound" statement is probably the most arrogant statement I have ever heard (and I am more than just a bit of an arrogant a$$h0le myself and deal with PhD's every day) Your belief that your personal experience is so profound that mere humans may not be capable of understanding it, borders on megalomania (and sounds amazingly like a statement that would be made by an adherent of Eckankar).

Your beliefs and experiences are yours to hold. However, when you begin to belittle, devalue, and insult others based on those beliefs, you have started down the road that leads to genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Peace,
dave
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:06 PM #1743
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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There is actually a non-physical aspect to all of us
The .jpg in your MyDocuments is non-physical, too. But when you blow up your computer, and the .jpg ceases to exist.

Quote:
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I read somewhere that scientists had created a single celled organism
This one, maybe? First Self-Replicating, Synthetic Bacterial Cell Constructed

Here's a longer 18 minute unveiling:

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Old 12-04-2010, 05:23 PM #1744
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Default Re: LPF's Religion

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The .jpg in your MyDocuments is non-physical, too.
I hate to sound like a smartass, but that's a bad analogy because the .jpg
does physically exist, as a magnetic recording on his harddrive.
The disc itself is obviously physical, and the fact that the jpg is there
is expressed by a certain, discrete state that physical device finds itself in.

Haha this thread is a great subscription!
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