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Old 08-01-2016, 08:27 PM #1105
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans View Post
Paul, if you are going to say I've lied, then which part of this is untrue? Let's break it down:

"This [what Hillary did] is far, far, far beyond anything Richard Nixon did in Watergate" - Opinion based on multiple examples which I provided.

"Nixon was never criminally prosecuted" - True. He was never criminally prosecuted.

"he [Nixon] was disqualified [from being president]" - also true, he was forced to resign.
Nixon wasn't forced to resign. He resigned because his fellow Republicans told him his impeachment would lead to a conviction. When the Republican Senate tried to convict Clinton of the impeachment brought against him by the House, they failed as the country as a whole showed the Senate that to continue with their impeachment would cost them their jobs. So, Clinton was impeached, but not convicted. And he continued as president.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans View Post
Paul said "Nixon resigned from the presidency before he could be convicted by impeachment". No, Paul. Nixon was impeached. Nixon resigned during the hearings. Nixon was never indicted by the grand jury and therefore never prosecuted for criminal activity. Whether Nixon would have been indicted down the road is speculative - impeachment and impeachment proceedings have noting to do with this. In any event, Nixon was pardoned before any grand jury indictment, although the grand jury did consider this as 7 others were indicted.
As usual, you don't know what you are talking about. Impeachment is the bringing of charges. One must then be convicted of the impeachment charges. I happened to be in college at that time and was taking an American history class that concerned itself with Nixon's impeachment and the impeachment of Andrew Johnson and the contrasting of the two, so I DO know what I am talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans View Post
"Hillary Clinton is certainly disqualified from being President" - Also true, based on precedent of Nixon. In Watergate, some low-level Nixon campaign staff broke into a hotel room and allegedly stole some information. This didn't concern Nixon, but what Nixon did that was wrong, i.e. impeachable, i.e. disqualified him from continuing as president, was he was involved in the erasing of tapes concerning a conversation he had with others on this topic, after he discovered what happened. What I did was draw a parallel to what Hillary did, erasing thousands of emails from her private server that was used for government business. It really is similar, albeit, what Hillary did was far worse. We aren't talking about a few minutes of tape discussing damage control after the fact when young campaign workers went awry.
Wrong, again. Nixon's crime was the cover up of the burglary, not the erasure of 18 minutes of tape for which which Nixon's secretary took the blame. The erasing of the emails was at the assurance of White House counsel who told Clinton it was legal to remove the personal emails. You have once again drawn a parallel where none exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans View Post
These are not lies, Paul, just facts and some opinion based on historical examples somewhat similar to what Hillary Clinton is involved in. Do you honestly not see any parallels to what Nixon did? Do you honestly think what Hillary did - erasing thousands of emails and her foundation donations are completely above board? Do you seriously not see that the Obama Administration's failure to prosecute Clinton is similar to Ford's pardon of Nixon? One friendly administration having the back of one of its own?
I have already answered these questions. I hope, but don't expect, that you will look up what i have said and see it is true. Going by the inflammatory rhetoric you have used in the past, I expect more of the same uninformed accusations and vile vitriol


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Old 08-01-2016, 09:40 PM #1106
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Nixon wasn't forced to resign. He resigned because his fellow Republicans told him his impeachment would lead to a conviction.
I.e. he was forced to resign. You are essentially saying the exact same thing I am. - look it up, it's black and white history Nixon was forced to resign.

Bill Clinton impeachment??? Red herring, deflection, typical conflation - completely irrelevant to the parallels I drew between Nixon's wrong doing and Hillary Clinton's wrong doing. Bill Clinton was impeached on completely dissimilar grounds. Nice try to sidetrack us away from me calling you out with the facts.

I
Quote:
mpeachment is the bringing of charges. One must then be convicted of the impeachment charges.
I agree with this statement. The problem is, that in you previous post, you were confusing the matter of criminal charges/conviction with impeachment charges/conviction. I merely pointed out the difference between the two unrelated types of proceedings.

Quote:
Nixon's crime was the cover up of the burglary, not the erasure of 18 minutes of tape
The erasure of the tape WAS a part of the cover-up. It wasn't all of what Nixon and/or his people were involved in. There were other aspects of the cover-up, but the erasure of the tape was certainly part of it. I don't think I have to recant everything Nixon did to draw some parallels to what Hillary did. Like I said, some of what she did was far worse than what Nixon did, i.e. using her foundation to sell influence while she was Secretary of State. Still the erasure of thousands of email and the erasure that happened in Watergate are interestingly similar, given the 40-year gap in technology.

I don't mind debating politics. I don't even mind admitting that I'm wrong when that is the case. I do mind being called a liar when it's clear I'm not. I also mind the assertion that I or others would shoot someone if our candidate doesn't win. When you speak of "inflammatory rhetoric", yes, I will remind you that you have made personal attacks in these debates, whereas anything inflammatory that I may have written strictly pertained to the political candidates.
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Old 08-01-2016, 10:20 PM #1107
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I see you took my advice and looked up the impeachment process. Good. You are at least learning. I wasn't confused by anything. If anyone was confused, it was you before looking up the impeachment process. I was a college student when Nixon was impeached. Where were you? Probably not even a glimmer in your under-aged parents eyes. The whole premise to bring criminal charges against Nixon was his cover up of the burglary on the DNC offices. It was going to happen too. The only reason Ford pardoned him from any and all charges that might be brought was the imminent nature of the indictments against Nixon. I didn't start making personal attacks. I never do that. I also didn't call you a liar. I don't do that either. I have said that you were incorrect at times and even things you said were not true, but never a liar. If you wish to debate politics, I suggest you first see if what you are about to say isn't Republican spin and can be supported by actual facts, not speculation of what occurred. The best way to do that is to look for other points of view, other than your own or those of people who agree with you. If your claim is that I have not been personally attacked here, I know there are people here who would disagree with you. It is not in my nature to bring up personal attacks by specificity long after they have been made. I do like to stick to the issues. Bill Clinton's impeachment is very relevant to this issue, as a simple majority of the House impeaches a president, but a 2/3 majority of the Senate is necessary to convict. The fact that Clinton was impeached and remained president shows the political nature of this argument.
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Old 08-02-2016, 09:13 PM #1108
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I know that Republicans have bemoaned the difference between the amount of funds available to Clinton and not Trump, but the answer was in an article yesterday about the RNC fund raiser in Colorado Springs. It seems the Koch brothers and many other contributors have decided not to fund Trump's campaign. The Koch brothers alone have $250 million in their war chest for this election. It seems they will be using it to fund state and local elections. Paul Ryan spoke at this fund raiser saying he was trying to recapture the "soul of the Republican party". This was in response to Trump's latest remarks. Trump, in the mean time, is still playing twitter tag with the VFW and other people who have denounced him for his attack on the Gold Start parents who spoke at the Democratic convention.


Edit: Today the Delaware Supreme Court ruled it's death penalty to be unconstitutional as it gave judges the right to overrule juries recommendation for Life sentences after the U.S. Supreme Court rules last January that Florida's death penalty unconstitutional for the same reason. The only other state to have this law is Alabama. 32 states have the death penalty.
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Old 08-03-2016, 03:59 AM #1109
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA



Someone took this:



And turned it into this:

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Old 08-03-2016, 04:13 AM #1110
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Don't think this little donkey hasn't been primed for a position.

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Old 08-04-2016, 12:46 AM #1111
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Trump and Clinton for 2016 has the dubious distinction of having the two candidates most disliked by their OWN party, let alone the opposing parties, running at the same time.

Its like BOTH parties are running the lesser of evils, and we get either Satan or the Devil depending on which party wins.
As a european this whole thing is interesting to watch.

It seems like the race is to be the least hated canditate more than anything else at the moment. This would seem to predict a low turnout as it's basically the choice between being bitten by the proverbial cat or dog.

The pre-elections are an intersting thing though. I think the democrats would have been better off running with Sanders, not because of his ideas but just because he is not that hatable.

The rebuplicans would have been better off having Homer Simpson as their candidate as well
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Old 08-04-2016, 01:04 AM #1112
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Forget about voting for the lesser evil. This is an election between two great evils. On one side we have the Matriarch of Corruption in Hillary Clinton. On the other side we have Trump, a megalomaniac who can't keep his mouth shut long enough to avoid offending 2/3 of the country.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:05 AM #1113
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

The latest Fox News poll has Clinton up 10% over Trump. That's the Fox News poll who are pushing for a Trump victory. It is true that both candidates have high disapproval ratings, but Trump's are much higher and he has the distinction of a large portion of Republicans saying they are voting for Clinton. Most people believe that Clinton is qualified to be president while a number just as large believes Trump is not. Meanwhile, Trump is still saying things that are pushing many Americans away to the point that Mitch McConnell thinks there's a good chance the Senate will have a Democratic majority after this election. If Clinton wins they only need four of the 12 contested seats to gain the majority. In the unlikely chance that Trump wins, they only need five. As this election progresses, i believe the negative numbers for Clinton will evaporate. But, anything is possible.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:16 AM #1114
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Old 08-04-2016, 07:59 PM #1115
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Old 08-04-2016, 08:03 PM #1116
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Her Monica Lewinski impression?
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Old 08-04-2016, 08:17 PM #1117
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

You can throw a lot of insults her way, but let's be honest, we all know, and Bill especially. Hillary doesn't suck.

IIRC that was her "genuine" reaction to fireworks.
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:37 PM #1118
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Today's polls put Clinton up 86% with Democrats while Trump is up 63% with Republican voters. There isn't a day that goes by that Trump doesn't say something to alienate voters in one way or another. Clinton does better with every demographic except white males with no college degree. The article in the New York Times today said it was their sense of loss. Uneducated white males feel that they aren't doing as well as politically than in past years. This fits well with Trump's campaign that the country is worse off in every way. But, many people are feeling that times are getting better for them. Obama's approval rating is up over 60% and the economy is doing much better than it was when Obama took office in 2009. In swing states Clinton is doing much better than Trump as Colorado has her leading by 8%, New Hampshire by 15% and the Democrat, Maggie Hassan is up 10% over Republican Senator Kelly Ayotte. Trump has alienated people like John McCain and the VFW, while veterans know that during the Viet Nam war he received 5 deferments from the draft, one for bone spurs in a heel of his foot. So, while his contemporaries were fighting and dying, Trump was on the cover of The New York Times for being sued by the Department of Justice for anti-black bias in his rental properties. This list goes on forever.
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:49 PM #1119
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Both of these candidates suck completely. What a shame this is what we get to pick from :/

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Old 08-05-2016, 12:30 AM #1120
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I would not be surprised if the polls are complety off on this either way.

Trump has one big advantage i can see: He's not a carreer politician. He has inhertited a great fortune, had some business ventures with that (with variable success), but is rich enough not to want or need the monetary gains from being the president. Those are considerable, former presidents often get paid very well for giving lectures and business functions after their term.

Personally i think he'll hugely benefit from the "fsck this system!" emotions among voters, and that decision will often be made in the voting booth.

We've seen these things in europe where anti-establishment parties manage to rake up significant amounts of votes on election days, though no european country really has a de-facto binary system like the US does.

Last edited by Benm; 08-05-2016 at 12:30 AM.
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