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Old 05-09-2016, 04:57 PM #593
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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I know that everyone has their own pet peeve that taxes pay for that they don't want to see their tax money going for. That doesn't mean that anyone's idea of how their taxes should be used is any less legitimate than someone else's.
And, the corollary is that no one is any more justified in how this money is spent. This applies even when a group of people agree on how to spend your money. This is why big government, "we'll take care of you" at the cost of your freedom, is so destructive.


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I will never understand the cold hearts of this society that judge everyone and everything from their vantage point.
You need to try. We all have a right to our own point of view. We all have an equal right to our own point of view. What you might view as cold, I might view as fair. What you might call compassion, I might see as enabling. Where the problems start is when you or I try to a apply force to compel the other to accept a certain point of view. Government is frequently brought in to apply that force and that force will escalate to the threat of death if you do not comply.

If you want to provide charity or withhold it or if you want to try to convince others to follow your lead then this is good


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Old 05-09-2016, 07:52 PM #594
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Old 05-10-2016, 12:36 AM #595
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
And, the corollary is that no one is any more justified in how this money is spent. This applies even when a group of people agree on how to spend your money. This is why big government, "we'll take care of you" at the cost of your freedom, is so destructive.
You shouldn't quote me and take it out of context. "Big government" is a catch phrase of the Republican party as a reason to deregulate basically everything from finances to anything except the military industrial complex. Deregulating the financial institutions worked so very well for us all back in 2007. It has worked so well for hedge fund managers and their employees that pay income tax at the rate of the capital gains tax when they are not investing anything themselves, just taking fees for doing so for others. "Big government" has been the social security administration that worked for many Republicans, like my father who used to complain about it as he took his entitlements for that and also for being an Army officer for 21 years. To take a page from your book, you should not be allowed to get social security or any other so called entitlement if you are so against the policy. Deregulated capital markets are no longer capitalism. It is just cronyism. It's a way to keep from paying taxes while getting a corporate welfare check at the same time. You need a new tag line as "Big government" just doesn't work anymore.
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Old 05-10-2016, 04:06 AM #596
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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You shouldn't quote me and take it out of context. "Big government" is a catch phrase of the Republican party
If that term bothers you I'll say a large or intrusive or costly or socialist government to describe the threat that we face from relinquishing our freedom and wealth to government. If the Republicans are linked to big government and I think they are then the Democrats are linked to huge government and are only very slightly worse.

Quote:
I know that everyone has their own pet peeve that taxes pay for that they don't want to see their tax money going for. That doesn't mean that anyone's idea of how their taxes should be used is any less legitimate than someone else's.
I did not place your quote in any context and I am not disagreeing with you. I am pointing out that the logical conclusion of your quote is that no one's idea of how their taxes should be used is any MORE legitimate. Therefore, if you and some others with a similar philosophy feel that my taxes should be taken from me with the threat of force to do some "good' that I oppose then this is wrong.

Quote:
To take a page from your book, you should not be allowed to get social security or any other so called entitlement if you are so against the policy.
My book? Which one is that? I should not be allowed/ There's that force thing creeping out from under the rock. However, if you mean that I should not get Social Security payments if I voluntarily did not contribute then of course, that is just and fair and I agree completely with that.
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Old 05-10-2016, 04:46 AM #597
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Yes Big government just no longer sounds BIG enough. I think something like Gigantic Humongous Government is more appropriate. The bureaucracy is constantly expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy, one day the bubble will burst.

As for the illicit cash thing mentioned earlier, I have heard that some police departments take your cash if they catch you with $500, they say it's suspicious and just take it and you don't get it back. In my opinion this is criminal activity by the police. Be careful how you carry cash, durring a trafic stop or at a checkpoint that are turning up in places from time to time now they can and will search you and your vehicle if you are uncooperative or if you even look at them the wrong way.

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Old 05-10-2016, 06:48 AM #598
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Do you want your roads repaired, your infrastructure maintained, a fire department if you have a fire, or police if someone is robbing you? I don't know how much history you pay attention to, but old people used to be agonizingly poor and would starve before the social security administration came along. The river in Chicago used to catch fire and the air in coal fired plants caused horrible black lung disease before the people, through their representatives, passed laws and brought into being agencies like the EPA and OSHA. I remember well when Reagan was elected and the first thing he did was to get his staff to contact the business community to find out what laws they would like to see no longer enforced. It's said that Republicans make government not work and then say "see, we told you so." He spent a trillion dollars on an idea he had that we could cover the USA with a shield that would make nuclear weapons useless against us. That little gem was called the Strategic Defense Initiative, or star wars as it later was called. He increased defense spending for more nukes to the point he had to raise taxes 12 times during his tenure. it was revealed that the hostages that were held in Iran in 1979 were in part released because he traded weapons for them and used the money to illegally fund the contras in Nicaragua because the government there was a leftist government and he didn't care that the contras were committing atrocities. When Congress found out he started playing the Alzheimer's card. The SDI still isn't a possibility and we are spending more and more money for defense projects like the NSA which has been gathering our phone calls and emails for years. Until just lately, the Supreme Court was filled with a majority of business lawyers that brought us gems like Citizens United. I'm not saying that Democrats haven't done their share of the same kind of crap, but just for the Supreme Court nominee alone, I'd rather see a Democrat in the White House than to see this court go on like it has. This is more than enough of a rant for me.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:21 AM #599
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Government is frequently brought in to apply that force and that force will escalate to the threat of death if you do not comply.
This last statement is pretty dramatic. There are two crimes punishable by the death penalty in this country, murder and treason. Could you explain how and when the Gov. threatens its citizens with death for noncompliance? Unless you see murder as noncompliance of not killing which is a really abstract way of looking at it. What your seem to be describing is a dictatorship not democracy.

So should the government not enforce its laws just because they may be unpopular with some of it's citizens? We have representation in our elected leaders and law makers so I don't see the grim description your portraying as appropriate for the U.S.
I don't see a problem with enforcing laws. ie. If the federal government didn't enforce its laws we would more than likely still have slavery as it was quite unpopular with half of the country.



As for Trump.
I don't think the Dem's are some shining answer to many of our problems such as welfare reform but I'll be damned if I'd ever put the country's fate in the hands of a racist blowhard like Trump. I like all of you, I want results, not a bunch of hate fueled rants and impossible claims.

The only good I can see has come from Trumps success is its spotlighted how little people care about inequality and racism in the United States. The fact that his statements and beliefs don't negatively effect his popularity but bolster it shows where we are. "Laziness is a trait of blacks", "it makes me sick to think of my money being counted by black people", "the only people I want counting my money wear funny little hats".
Referring to Hispanic immigrants as a bunch of rapist's and murderers and his objectification of women publicly referring to them as "a piece of ass.”

A man who thinks florescent light bulbs cause cancer and global warming was invented by the Chinese. The list is endless but none of that matters to his supporters. If he was running for Finance Csar or appointed as Secretary of Treasury I could see why some people may think he was qualified but this man in the geopolitical world stage is ridiculous.

The welfare system is out of control and costs over a trillion dollars a year eating up 10% of our tax dollars. This is a big problem and needs to be addressed but in a manner that is effective. To simply cut welfare benefits to millions of people without creating and/or increase funding to other services and programs that will reduce poverty will only cost us more in the long run.

Its one thing to appease everyone's resentments about their tax dollars going to hand outs with empty rhetoric and threats, but its another to think its as simple as kicking people off welfare and expecting positive results.

That's no different to kicking out the homeless from one end of the city and shuffling them to the other end as a solution. All Trump does is rile everyone up like a pack of wolves and then throw them a plastic bone. He has no plan. He only has ridiculous rhetoric and statements like building a wall across the border and make Mexico pay for it.

We live in a society that is becoming one big reality show so its no wonder why some of them would want a President who's values are on par with such. Except its not a reality show, its the election of one of the most powerful human beings on our planet and will effect us all.
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:15 PM #600
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Paul and Olympus,

I have discussed the issue of our corrupt government at considerable length in this thread and I am not going to repeat it.

The governments in Europe and the US are far too large in nearly all categories and are facing collapse with Europe in the lead, but the US will just as surely get there.

The "State" and socialism are not the solution for the human condition. Socialism is for losers. Socialism is theft.

The distinctions between the Democrats and the Republicans are meaningless and looking for government to even the playing field or the results, is corrupt.

Nevertheless, Sanders has little hope and so you both support Clinton the crook?

Quote:
This last statement is pretty dramatic. There are two crimes punishable by the death penalty in this country, murder and treason. Could you explain how and when the Gov. threatens its citizens with death for noncompliance? Unless you see murder as noncompliance of not killing which is a really abstract way of looking at it. What your seem to be describing is a dictatorship not democracy.
It is dramatic, but its inescapable. Say I refuse to support some policy of government such as the arming of Ukrainian military. I refuse to allow my money (taxes) to be taken for this purpose. The government tries to confiscate my property to pay these taxes and I refuse to allow them. They attempt to arrest me and jail me and I refuse to comply. They will shoot me. This is not a narrow example. How many people would pay their taxes if the worst the government could do is send you pleading letters trying to convince you they would not waste it. It is the threat of (ultimately) lethal force that compels cooperation of the citizens. What I am describing is dictatorship. Whether the dictator is some incompetent community organizer, some cabal of private bankers at the Fed or a group of connected CEOs of the leading military suppliers, you and I are not represented.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:44 AM #601
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

So then, considering your view why back any candidate? They are all part of the problem no? Are you not choosing the lesser of evils as I feel I am?
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:20 PM #602
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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So then, considering your view why back any candidate? They are all part of the problem no? Are you not choosing the lesser of evils as I feel I am?
Do you jump out the third floor window and take your chances or face certain death as the room burns around you? Yes, that is what I am doing. Not backing any candidate ACCOMPLISHES nothing. I will vote for Trump because he, like Sanders poses the biggest road block to the corrupt, entrenched elite that now rule. This elite crosses back and forth from Democrat to Republican and between the banks, Wall Street and the Fed. They move from campaign staff to the media and in and out of lobbying groups from K Street. It is a false choice that they had planned between Hillary and Jeb. It was the safe flavor for the next 4-8 years while they prospered and the world burned.

I think some here mistakenly thought that I favored the Republicans. I despise them and would support Sanders if he was viable (he may still have a shot if Comey comes through). If Trump wins and that is uncertain then there will be an invigoration of the outsider option for the two houses of Congress. Remember how the Republican elite hate Trump. He had to sign a contract that he wouldn't go third party then the Bushes,Graham, Romney and Ryan all refuse to support him. "Conservative" pundits like Beck, Levin and Will relentlessly attack him. You gotta love it.

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Old 05-11-2016, 08:11 PM #603
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by olympus mons View Post
So then, considering your view why back any candidate? They are all part of the problem no? Are you not choosing the lesser of evils as I feel I am?
A murderer and a criminal and a proven liar is not better and is not the lesser of two evils.

Murder and deception are far worse than making racist and bigoted comments.
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Old 05-12-2016, 05:55 PM #604
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Someone must have hit random on character creation screen...



I mean crap, I'm a Bernie supporter, but those supporters make me want to support someone else

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Old 05-12-2016, 08:02 PM #605
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

@IE I'd rep you for that if I could.
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:54 PM #606
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Glad you like it. I'm an equal opportunity offender

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Old 05-12-2016, 09:08 PM #607
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I like that about you, IE. They are all funny regardless of who they offend.
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Old 05-13-2016, 12:05 AM #608
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Ohh I love this, I haven't smiled so many times in a row...every time it goes around I smile.
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