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Old 02-25-2016, 08:50 PM #417
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazerman121 View Post
Saw this on Facebook
[IMG]http://i0.wp.com/armstrongeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Thatcher-Socialism.jpg[/IMG ]
The problem with unrestrained capitalism...



This is actually, extremely similar to the propaganda cartoons kids used to be shown in former USSR;



The scary thing... it's not far off from reality.



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Old 02-25-2016, 08:51 PM #418
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by lazerman121 View Post
Saw this on Facebook
Her policies didn't exactly help . Unemployment under Thatcher was a good chunk worse than even that seen after the 2008 financial crisis. Hell, it was the worst unemployment rate since the great depression.

Doesn't seem to want to let me embed this graph: http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-cont...nt-600x529.png

Needless to say, she wasn't well liked among the working class.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:58 PM #419
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I see some GREED on both ends of the debate, but how do we trust our government to oversee a helping hand when they are some or the greediest thieves?

We first have to fix our government wagon before we hitch up our monetary horses to it.

Yes a society where basic needs are not a worry could foster much intellectual growth, but we can't expect to get to that wonderful place in our broken wagon.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:03 PM #420
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
I see some GREED on both ends of the debate, but how do we trust our government to oversee a helping hand when they are some or the greediest thieves?

We first have to fix our government wagon before we hitch up our monetary horses to it.

Yes a society where basic needs are not a worry could foster much intellectual growth, but we can't expect to get to that wonderful place in our broken wagon.
Given how often be kind of butt heads, I'm surprised to find myself in completely agreement with this.

Just don't think that going with a known greedy guy is a good way to go about things.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:17 PM #421
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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I can see where you are coming from. However, it's not so much an issue of politics as much as it is a social issue,
You can not separate these. Each supports and requires the other. How else do you change the bad behavior if you allow the enabler of government to encourage it?


Quote:
People have a right to food and shelter, however, that right comes with a responsibility. If you aren't going to contribute to society at any point in your life (assuming you are capable, fit to work) then you shouldn't be given those benefits.
Read your post again. You say they have a right, but the right is conditional. In other words, their right is not universal and depends on their fulfilling certain obligations. OK, we agree here. Society is likewise not obligated, unconditionally. Aside form the fundamental flaw that socialism separates the recipient and the the provider, the implementation of socialism requires you to establish rules and limits, checks and systems to push back on the tendency for the taker to get as much as he can and the provider to provide as little as he has to. The system is unstable. This means it tens to grow and is prone to excesses in either direction.

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I DO have a problem with supporting people for life simply because they don't WANT to work.
Quote:
I have no problem paying taxes that go to helping those who have fallen on hard times,
Quote:
Again, how are they to "thank you"? What is it that you expect of these people?
My solution is to provide the support directly. This is what I do and to a significant amount. I'll decide where my money goes and who I judge will use it well. It's my money. I earned it. I do expect "thank you" and I often get much more. But, this is in the private sector.


Quote:
but yes, anger is clouding your judgement on the matter.

You need to stop this. This is insulting and untrue. I asked for others to evaluate if I am "clouded". I disagree with you and you disagree with me. Don't be so arrogant to assume this means MY judgment is in question.

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That is a very very good question, but it raises many more. So I'll counter with another, where would we be, if driven not by basic needs, but by desire and passion?
Lets not move onto another question with the first left unanswered.

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Large fraction? So certainly not a majority.
A large fraction does not mean less than a majority. It means less than all. I actually believe it is a majority.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:22 PM #422
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I have fears too, but Hillary is a nightmare, and if the knuckle dragging masses want a popularity contest I want anyone who will beat Hillary.

Trump has made his fortune, he has gotten older, maybe he is ready to do something great in the last portion of his life, he's a better person than Hillary if nothing else and would reach into his own pocket to help a downtrodden curbside soul before Hillary would.

Hillary is the essence of greed, it oozes from her rancid festering image no matter how sickening her contrived smile.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:27 PM #423
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

The only qualifier should be do you pay taxes. If I pay taxes and I feel I need assistance I paid for it. It is a service. If you pay for a service you should be able to use a service. I should not be able to get more out than I pay in.

I disagree with the child tax credit on premise. I have a child, I enjoy getting a deduction over it. However I make too much to be able to actually benefit from it. I don't get the thousands back that others get.

Having a child was my decision as well as my wife's. The general tax paying public didn't make that decision. Why is my decision to have a child more important than someone else's decision to own a monster truck? My opinion is yes, my child is more important that "your" monster truck. To you, your monster truck is more important. The fact that I can claim my child because "they are expensive" doesn't work for me. Monster Trucks are expensive as well. What is the Valid argument as to why you can claim a credit for a life decision?

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Old 02-25-2016, 09:30 PM #424
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Hillary is the essence of greed, it oozes from her rancid festering image no matter how sickening her contrived smile.
Yeah, her smile doesn't really do a good job of hiding all of that EVIL.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:22 PM #425
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by planters View Post
I do expect "thank you" and I often get much more. But, this is in the private sector.
So what you're saying is, you want a thank you, directly to you, from anyone who may have benefited from your taxes? That's just absurd.

Oh by the way, why haven't you been thanking everyone too, for those roads you drive on? Or the public education you received?

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You need to stop this.
You admit that you're angry, but won't entertain the notion that it's clouding your judgement? Ok, I'll stop, but for a seemingly smart guy, that's a dumb position.

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
Lets not move onto another question with the first left unanswered.
It's no more answerable than any musing, absent far more details.

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A large fraction does not mean less than a majority. It means less than all. I actually believe it is a majority.
Which again brings us back to what you're basing your opinions on. I'm not implying they are wrong, they can't be and by their very nature, but I do question how they were formed. If they are based on Fox News, or MSNBC for example, they are still not wrong, just based on a really horrible, slanted view.

For example, my own views on the matter are formed based on personal experiences, having come from a low income environment, and being an immigrant, and now a reasonably productive member of society. I have seen a lot of people come up from literally nothing, and see most of them doing well. Whatever aid they received, they have paid back into the system 10x over already.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:50 PM #426
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
So what you're saying is, you want a thank you, directly to you, from anyone who may have benefited from your taxes? That's just absurd.
It is not absurd because I get these thank yous in the private sector.

Quote:
You admit that you're angry, but won't entertain the notion that it's clouding your judgement? Ok, I'll stop, but for a seemingly smart guy, that's a dumb position.
You can't drop it can you? You have to follow with another insult. Just stop it.

Quote:
Which again brings us back to what you're basing your opinions on. I'm not implying they are wrong, they can't be and by their very nature, but I do question how they were formed. If they are based on Fox News, or MSNBC for example, they are still not wrong, just based on a really horrible, slanted view.
I told you they were based on daily, personal experience at work. I also run a non-profit and here too I see this expectation, but from a very different demographic. Media outlets have nothing to do with it.

Quote:
I have seen a lot of people come up from literally nothing, and see most of them doing well. Whatever aid they received, they have paid back into the system 10x over already.
But the war on poverty has yielded nowhere near your 1000% profit margin. It has been a black hole of spending. Your experience is unrepresentative. If it were we would have ten's of trillions, maybe 100 trillion dollars in resources from the productivity of the dependency class. This just isn't the case and everyone knows it, but some won't admit it.

Notice how the defenders of socialism are the recipients? This group is not fixed and as government has swelled the recipients have multiplied.

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Old 02-25-2016, 11:11 PM #427
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Notice how the defenders of socialism are the recipients?
Generalize much?
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Old 02-25-2016, 11:17 PM #428
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Old 02-25-2016, 11:47 PM #429
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Generalize much?
When it works.
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:33 AM #430
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
It is not only theft, it is a threat to everyone's freedom and safety, and I am not just talking about Americans. As the power of our federal government grows until it has full control over our lives, our education, healthcare, the media, we will become like the former Soviet Union and we will become an increasing threat to the rest of the world. And the billionaires, bankers, big pharma, defence contractors, that control our government today will still control our government even more and the last trace of democracy we have left will be gone.

Alan
Exactly Right Sir!

I will gladly be poor and struggle to pay my bills as long as I am free, my freedom is not for sale and even if I did sell my soul to the devil I know the dirty thief would cheat me.

Would poor African Americans living in the projects be better off if they were still slaves?
Plantation owners did feed and cloth them, take care of their medical, provide housing and jobs.
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Old 02-26-2016, 01:03 AM #431
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Back in 1968 I remember hearing prophetic words that in time, Russia and the USA would trade roles in regard to socialism and freedom in both civil liberties as well as business. I see that happening at an ever increasing rate.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:17 AM #432
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
When it works.
Except like most assumptions it doesn't. You know what's said about assumptions right?
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