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Old 02-24-2016, 10:25 PM #401
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Nor is he out to "punish [... the rich...] with 90% tax rates". It's not that the well off, of the rich, or the wealthy aren't paying their fair share.
Yes he is. That is the appeal of his punitive tax rate. His supporters, not all, but many are jealous and bitter.

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It's the obscenely rich, AND corporations. We're not talking about small companies either, but giants,
That sounds nice, but it is completely impossible. His 20 trillion in ADDITIONAL spending requires the very high taxes are applied to the middle class and many of these small business owners are in the middle class.

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All things that he opposes, hasn't participated in, or would have no direct oversight on.
These things are the consequence of huge intrusive government. They are not designed or approved of. They have evolved because government is way, way too big. Sanders would enlarge government even more.

I know this will anger some readers, but I'll say it because it needs to be said. "Socialism is for loosers". It is favored by those that get something they didn't earn and by those politician-thugs that are rewarded for taking from one group and giving to their supporters. It is theft.


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Old 02-24-2016, 10:50 PM #402
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

It is not only theft, it is a threat to everyone's freedom and safety, and I am not just talking about Americans. As the power of our federal government grows until it has full control over our lives, our education, healthcare, the media, we will become like the former Soviet Union and we will become an increasing threat to the rest of the world. And the billionaires, bankers, big pharma, defence contractors, that control our government today will still control our government even more and the last trace of democracy we have left will be gone.

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Old 02-24-2016, 10:55 PM #403
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I'm sure this might make some people mad in turn, but it's retarded to think all people want is just a bare minimum. Which is what socialism provides.

A bare minimum of safety and opportunity.
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Old 02-24-2016, 11:27 PM #404
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
Yes he is. That is the appeal of his punitive tax rate. His supporters, not all, but many are jealous and bitter.



That sounds nice, but it is completely impossible. His 20 trillion in ADDITIONAL spending requires the very high taxes are applied to the middle class and many of these small business owners are in the middle class.



These things are the consequence of huge intrusive government. They are not designed or approved of. They have evolved because government is way, way too big. Sanders would enlarge government even more.

I know this will anger some readers, but I'll say it because it needs to be said. "Socialism is for loosers". It is favored by those that get something they didn't earn and by those politician-thugs that are rewarded for taking from one group and giving to their supporters. It is theft.
It isn't $20 Trillion more out of the populations pockets though, even if it is an additional $20 Trillion spending (Number I read was actually $18 Trillion, anyway).

Here's a perfectly worded example explaining why it won't cost the people an extra $20 Trillion.

Quote:
So let’s say that Bernie Sanders became president and passed a single-payer health care system of some sort. And let’s say that it did indeed cost $15 trillion over 10 years. Would that be $15 trillion in new money we’d be spending? No, it would be money that we’re already spending on health care, but now it would go through government. If I told you I could cut your health insurance premiums by $1,000 and increase your taxes by $1,000, you wouldn’t have lost $1,000. You’d be in the same place you are now.
.

I get it, some people don't like big government, that's fine. But a little socialism never hurt anyone. I'm not saying we should turn ourselves into the USSR.

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It is favored by those that get something they didn't earn and by those politician-thugs that are rewarded for taking from one group and giving to their supporters. It is theft.
The people that didn't (And don't want to) earn their keep will find a way to scam the system so that they don't need to earn their keep anyway. Those types of people will always be a detriment to society, no matter what you do.

EDIT: Actually - here is a great point for socialism. I earn more than double what the average Canadian my age does (even if I moved south, it'd still be around double). Do you know what I have to thank for that? An apprenticeship paid for by the Government! That 10 month apprenticeship has already paid for itself. It probably paid for itself within the first three years. It's definitely paid for itself now, 5 years later. If it wasn't for that I'd probably be working at a fast food place or on government benefits now - either way I wouldn't be contributing to society. Just one personal example of how socialism can be beneficial for everyone.
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Old 02-24-2016, 11:51 PM #405
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

[QUOTE]but it's retarded to think all people want is just a bare minimum. Which is what socialism provides.[/QUOTE

Does anyone think THAT?! I sure don't. Socialism provides and socialism takes. The taking is immoral.

Quote:
It isn't $20 Trillion more out of the populations pockets though, even if it is an additional $20 Trillion spending (Number I read was actually $18 Trillion, anyway).
!8 trillion...20 trillion whatever. The government is already WAY, WAY, WAY too big. It needs to shrink.

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Do you know what I have to thank for that? An apprenticeship paid for by the Government!
You are so wrong. This wasn't paid for by the government. It was paid for by some other Canadian citizen that you never met and probably never will. And, if he did not pay those taxes they could point a gun at his head and put him in prison. This is evil.

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I get it, some people don't like big government, that's fine. But a little socialism never hurt anyone.
Yes it does, but the less there is the less the damage. I'll say it again. Socialism is for loosers.
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:00 AM #406
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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You are so wrong. This wasn't paid for by the government. It was paid for by some other Canadian citizen that you never met and probably never will. And, if he did not pay those taxes they could point a gun at his head and put him in prison. This is evil.
.
Fair point - it was paid by someones taxes. However, the opportunity those taxes provided put me in a position to pay that back into the system. My paying that back into the system could help cover someone elses medical bills that they otherwise would have had to pay out of pocket for. It could help pay for someone's benefits when they lost their jobs due to cuts by the right wing Government or by some big corporation moving their jobs to some foreign country (Actually, I'm not too clear on how EI works in Canada, but that's how it goes in the UK...). My contribution could even pay for someone elses apprenticeship/education which then lets them pay back into the system or otherwise contribute to society.

At the end of the day none of that cost anyone any extra but everyone benefited from it. It gave me an opportunity, it may have provided a safety net for someone else and their family.

I know you understand what I'm saying, you just have a different point of view and there may be no changing that - I'm not really trying to - your opinions are yours and you are entitled to them as much as I am my own. That's fine - it's really the discussion that's important I think. At the end of the day we won't know who's position is better until at least one of them has been tried out and is either a success or a failure.
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Old 02-25-2016, 05:14 AM #407
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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At the end of the day none of that cost anyone any extra but everyone benefited from it. It gave me an opportunity, it may have provided a safety net for someone else and their family.
The scenario as you paint it seems like a win-win. I could paint an alternative that would be a loose-loose. But, it is the transfer of the responsibility and benefit that is the core of both examples and that is the fundamental flaw with socialism. By separating the benefit and responsibility you loose the balancing force that encourages self motivation and discourages abuse. You have to trust that social pressures will substitute. The huge welfare state within the US is strong evidence that this pressure is not working. People use their EBT cards without a thought of gratitude, but with an expectation of entitlement. Many of us are very angry and feel we are being taken advantage of (because we are).

My point of view has developed over many years of observation. Maybe if I wasn't always the one who's been carrying so many others I wouldn't be so angry. A common theme of socialism is that it is viewed from the point of view of all the nice things we can all get, but it usually overlooks what the costs of those things mean from the point of view of the most productive, the hardest working. We are all different and have different abilities, but those of us that are more productive are not superhuman. It often means getting up earlier, forgoing early gratification, taking risks and yes, being smarter helps. If we didn't achieve more, then the net resources would be based on the lowest common denominator.

It may have given you an opportunity or provided a safety net, but socialism is unfair. You should have had to pay back the costs of your assistance directly. You benefited and so you pay for it. If the benefit is small then ...etc.
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Old 02-25-2016, 06:22 AM #408
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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People use their EBT cards without a thought of gratitude, but with an expectation of entitlement.
How do you know this?

Is it entitlement to pay taxes, contribute, work, fall on hard times, ask for help, and expect to actually get some?

Yes, there are of course people who abuse the system. Yes there are druggies who sell their benefits for a half their value or less for a fix. Most people aren't, and most people are honest.

To receive assistance, you have to be poor, and you have to through re-certifications annually. Providing SS#, DOB, sometimes having face to face meetings, reporting all back accounts, all information about any household members, all assets, and permission to the agency performing the check to verify everything you tell tell them is true.

If you have any significant assets (defined as over 1k or 5k depending on agency) guess what? You don't qualify.

There was a very very popular meme making the rounds not that long ago. Simple premise - in order to receive benefits you must pass a drug test. Sounds good right? Except that in practice, it cost much more to do the testing, than what was recouped in benefits not paid, and the number of people who failed the drug tests... statistically insignificant.

So how do you know that people using these cards do so with no sense of gratitude, and instead smug self entitlement? Did you ask any of them? Talk to any of them? Interact at all with many of them?

How do you expect them to show gratitude? Should people have to loudly 'THANK YOU, OH DEARIE LORD THANK YOU JESUS AND YOU WONDERFUL TAXPAYERS!" every time they are at a checkout lane ?

You're very angry, and very bitter. It drips from your posts. It clouds your judgement.

Nor is the anger unjustified, just horribly misdirected. The true "welfare" state, is the state apparatus itself, and even then, it's the subsidies and tax breaks going to the super rich and massive corporations.
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Old 02-25-2016, 07:04 AM #409
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA





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Old 02-25-2016, 08:34 AM #410
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

When it gets bad enough the people start to individually, on their own, go after the super rich and individuals who manipulate the system, then you might see some change. We aren't there yet, but I can see it coming.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:58 AM #411
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

A socialist wants to redistribute the wealth of rich men, and who are the rich men?
Anyone making one dollar more than the socialist.
The problem with this short sighted doomed to fail concept is that eventually you run out of rich men.

Money is concentrated work and you have to put something in to add value, any system that gives hand outs or hand ups whatever name you want to give it, without value being added is doomed to fail, eventually everyone has to earn their keep, then once they have put in the time, blood, sweat and tears some socialist comes along and wants to steal it and give it away to people who don't add any value.

There are always poorer people, do you want your government under threat of force to take what you have worked for and give it away, along with squander a large chunk?

No you want them to steal someone else's money, not yours, but in time it will be your money and your labor and your freedom that gets stolen but by then it will be too late to say you understand and want to keep what you have earned, or will earn, or can earn.

In time it wont be enough to redistribute saved value, they will want to spend your work before you do it and tell you what you can have and what labor you must give.

Allowing government theft of wealth will equate to allowing government theft of freedom.

You will find that in good times when the government leaves people alone that the wealthy help those less fortunate and help even more those people who want to better themselves.

Do you want capitalist giving you a job or your government giving you a work assignment?

Do you want to choose what to buy, or be told what you need and what you are allowed to have?
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Old 02-25-2016, 11:43 AM #412
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I agree with everything you wrote and I don't want socialism, but if you look at the numbers on the following, you can see how lop sided the wealth is in this country, it used not to be so bad:



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Old 02-25-2016, 07:55 PM #413
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Quote:
Is it entitlement to pay taxes, contribute, work, fall on hard times, ask for help, and expect to actually get some?
Yes, by definition, But I know what you are driving at and it is really just restating the premise of socialism. The problem remains that you give here and take there and the issue of merit, still decouples. You still have "from each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs". That isn't fair.

Quote:
How do you know this?
Quote:
So how do you know that people using these cards do so with no sense of gratitude, and instead smug self entitlement? Did you ask any of them? Talk to any of them? Interact at all with many of them?
This is a good question for two reasons.

Aside from the implication that I have it wrong it points out that this is important, that it is not irrelevant.

As I said above my point of view comes from long observation. I am not some dilettante sitting in his high rise condo lamenting why my boat is too small. I don't advertise what I do, but I work with the dependency class nearly every day. There are some legitimate cases of bad luck and missteps where a helping hand can bridge a difficult time. But there is a large fraction that have no concept that their lives depend on resources that others have had to forgo. They believe it comes from government. That it just is. I'll just get some of Obama's stash". An increasing number, and it's increasing at a frightful rate, are saying they DESERVE more. That it isn't fair that someone else has what they do not.

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How do you expect them to show gratitude? Should people have to loudly 'THANK YOU, OH DEARIE LORD THANK YOU JESUS AND YOU WONDERFUL TAXPAYERS!" every time they are at a checkout lane ?
Actually...

If these people are among the huge permanent dependency class that are never on the other side of your give and take equation then don't they owe the rest of society something? A thank you would help.

Quote:
You're very angry, and very bitter. It drips from your posts. It clouds your judgement.
I'm glad that it comes across. When the cop says to the victim of a mugging or robbery, "you seem angry? Ya...duh.

Bitter? Maybe, but I rather think sad for the lost potential of our society. Where would we be, what would we know if the drive to excellence was not so burdened?

But, clouds my judgment? Hold on there. This kind of insult does not further the argument. Do other readers here question the logic of my arguments or think I write like I'm in a fog? You might disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I'm dull witted.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:29 PM #414
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
There are some legitimate cases of bad luck and missteps where a helping hand can bridge a difficult time. But there is a large fraction that have no concept that their lives depend on resources that others have had to forgo. They believe it comes from government. That it just is. I'll just get some of Obama's stash". An increasing number, and it's increasing at a frightful rate, are saying they DESERVE more. That it isn't fair that someone else has what they do not.


Actually...

If these people are among the huge permanent dependency class that are never on the other side of your give and take equation then don't they owe the rest of society something? A thank you would help.



I'm glad that it comes across. When the cop says to the victim of a mugging or robbery, "you seem angry? Ya...duh.

Bitter? Maybe, but I rather think sad for the lost potential of our society. Where would we be, what would we know if the drive to excellence was not so burdened?

But, clouds my judgment? Hold on there. This kind of insult does not further the argument. Do other readers here question the logic of my arguments or think I write like I'm in a fog? You might disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I'm dull witted.

I can see where you are coming from. However, it's not so much an issue of politics as much as it is a social issue, at least in my view. There are a portion of people that feel they are entitled to government benefits and that it is their right to receive them. However, that same group doesn't seem to realize that with rights come responsibilities. This issue is somewhat apparent in my generation (and previous generations) but is becoming more apparent in the generation after my own. Not just with government benefits or the like either - each new generation seems to become more entitled. Maybe it's just me, maybe I'm getting old.

People have a right to food and shelter, however, that right comes with a responsibility. If you aren't going to contribute to society at any point in your life (assuming you are capable, fit to work) then you shouldn't be given those benefits. I have no problem paying taxes that go to helping those who have fallen on hard times, or those who are looking for an opportunity to better themselves and are willing to contribute to society. I DO have a problem with supporting people for life simply because they don't WANT to work. I've met those types, went to school with several of them who all seemed proud to be that way. Those people will always be a burden on the system unless forced to work, i.e. by removing their benefits. Even then - you'll still have a small percentage that won't bother their asses - that's life unfortunately.


I think some anger and perhaps bitterness does come across in your posts, but they do seem perfectly logical to me.
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:38 PM #415
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Large fraction? So certainly not a majority.

"They believe it comes from government. That it just is." - You know where a belief about something like that comes from? Poor education... primary education. A social service.

Again, how are they to "thank you"? What is it that you expect of these people?

Didn't say you were dull witted... but yes, anger is clouding your judgement on the matter. I do think it would be stupid not to knowledge that emotion can negatively impact decisions, and outlook.

You ask where would we be, what would we know if the drive to excellence was not so burdened?

That is a very very good question, but it raises many more. So I'll counter with another, where would we be, if driven not by basic needs, but by desire and passion?
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Old 02-25-2016, 08:39 PM #416
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
I'm sure this might make some people mad in turn, but it's retarded to think all people want is just a bare minimum. Which is what socialism provides.

A bare minimum of safety and opportunity.
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