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Old 01-21-2016, 06:39 PM #273
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
If the country were 100 people, a more appropriate analogy would be 1 guy with 65% of the resources, telling 10 guys how he want things done them doing it for 15% of the remaining resources, and the other 89 guys scrambling for the remaining 20% of what's left, while the 10 guys overseeing it tell them how they only have each other to blame.

That's called income inequality. Wealth gap. Wall street run amok, tax evasion and profit shifting.

It needs to be addressed. Trump is one of those 10 guys. So yeah. Go Bernie!
Last I heard was the top 1% controlled 1/4 of the wealth.
The next 10% controlled another 1/4 of the wealth.
And the other 89% controlled 1/2 of the wealth.

But even if we robbed the top 11% we would still have a big problem.

You are mad at the wrong rich people, it's the rich people in Washington D.C. that you should be mad at, they live very well and want for very little, they have their own health care and don't have to obey the laws they write for us.

You are mad at the wrong rich people.



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Old 01-21-2016, 06:58 PM #274
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Socialism might seem like a good idea. Under pure socialism, there would be no system of payment, and everything produced would be distributed equally. This could potentially solve world hunger, and create world peace. However, socialism removes the will to work harder than the next guy. If you know that any extra you produce isn't going to benefit you, and is just going straight into the community pot, then why would you produce anything extra? You may think that you would do it for the good of humankind, but trust me, that will get old quickly. There are many variants of socialism, each with its own pros and cons, but in the end they will all stagnate our species.

Capitalism, by itself can be dangerous as we have seen in the past, and should not be a free for all with no federal regulation (think 1929). However, unlike socialism, it's what drives us to be competitive. Not only that, but under true capitalism, if you don't work you don't eat. This means that either you're relying on the charity of someone who made it, or you're getting a job. Hunger is a powerful motivator, and once that charity stops coming in, I guarantee you'll be applying for a job. It rewards the citizen that works hard, and makes sure that their lifestyle is directly proportional to the work they do and how much that work helps other people, or how valuable it is to them. This is another way capitalism forces our society to progress. It forces us to help each other. You can do manual labor nonstop and still not earn as much as someone who is living off of the income from something they invented. So you're doing more work, but still making less, how is that fair? It's fair because of the value of their contribution to society. If you're working erecting pillars for a construction company, you're helping society, so you will get paid. But you will get paid WAY more if you do something that has a huge societal impact, like invent the computer.

As Zig Ziglar said, "If you want to achieve your goals, help others achieve theirs."

There will be ways around this of course, like crime. But crime would be way more rampant in a socialist society because the natural human drive is to get ahead, and socialism suppresses that.
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Old 01-21-2016, 07:49 PM #275
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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You are mad at the wrong rich people, it's the rich people in Washington D.C. that you should be mad at, they live very well and want for very little, they have their own health care and don't have to obey the laws they write for us.
I'm not actually mad at either. These people, the rich in Washington that work for those even richer oligarchs elsewhere, they aren't necessarily bad people, they are just in it for themselves. All of them.

Much as I dislike her, Hillary, Bush, Trump, etc,. they aren't out to get you, or dismantle your life or tax you to poverty. They are going with what they believe to be the best course of action, that aligns with their interests, and the interests of those that pay them.

But if you mean I'm focused on the wrong people, you are mistaken. Washington is a culmination of interests, the endpoint, but those interest originate all over, and mostly, from the very very rich. Regardless of whether those are people rich in money, or power, and whether they are politicians or businessmen.
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Old 01-21-2016, 07:49 PM #276
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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You are mad at the wrong rich people, it's the rich people in Washington D.C. that you should be mad at, they live very well and want for very little, they have their own health care and don't have to obey the laws they write for us.
This is EXACTLY right. The resentment or jealousy or righteous grievance many direct at the wealthy should not be only because they are wealthy. Our anger needs to be directed at Washington. These are our employees. They are our public SERVANTS, but they live above us and that has to change.

I brought up the analogy of the 100 people to illustrate that socialism is theft. It is the theft of labor, resources or talent. It is enabled by the thieves paving off a mob to enforce the theft. This is why socialism is obscene. It is presented as giving and generosity when it is based on stealing. Even if you are not religious, it is a good way of demonstrating a sin.

Quote:
If your working erecting pillars for a construction company, you're helping society, so you will get paid. But you will get paid WAY more if you do something that has a huge societal impact, like invent the computer.
This is EXACTLY right as well. Society gets to voice its preferences, but it can't force them on anyone.
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Old 01-21-2016, 07:57 PM #277
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA



Can't embed these;

1975 - http://static1.squarespace.com/stati...page+14_14.png

2010 - http://static1.squarespace.com/stati...page+15_15.png

To put it another way: https://www.minnpost.com/sites/defau...-us-wealth.png

As someone most definitely stuck in the bottom 60% - as most people are - socialism, with limits on it, definitely seems like a superior option to barely controlled capitalism that resulted in the above. Although the above distribution is still quite a bit better than a common man/woman could have expected 200-300 years ago.

I just think it's absurd to dismiss any candidate out of conditioned fear for a word, especially in favor of one who is most certainly, a member of the top .0001%.

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Old 01-21-2016, 08:13 PM #278
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Infitius, you think they are puppets of the rich? NO! They are thieves!
They don't have to be puppets or rob us, they choose to.


It's not that they are out to get us, they are out to get theirs.

Our employees do not have our best interest at heart, they work to feather their own nest, giving them more control will not save us from them.

PLEASE READ!

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...s-itself.shtml
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:26 PM #279
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Ok, so given the position we are in, the solution you advocate is going with possibly the worst candidate, to make thing so bad that the system crashes?

In that case... Carson seems like a better choice. He is completely insane.
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:42 PM #280
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

We do need a reset, and maybe Hillary would get us there faster, I am hoping to slow down this train wreck for 20 years then I don't care what ....Actually I do care.

Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are 1st and foremost, Hillary and Bernie are furthest from that point of view.

I really liked Paul Rand, I want to shrink government and restore freedom while doing the important things like protecting the country.

But our system is built on rules and a chain of command, Barry has been pouring sand into the gears, I don't think he's incompetent I think he is guilty of treason as is Hillary.

Socialism is not the answer, watch the cartoon man, it's nothing new.

Our Constitution and our freedom made us the beacon of the world, even Hong Kong has embraced capitalism, China did not grab it all up in 2000, they saw what was happening now they are poised to own the world, they are becoming less socialist.

It won't be an easy fix, but Trump is the lesser of the evils and Hillary must not win, unless you want to see it all crash. With Trump at least America can make a profit.


Just think about it, if the wealthy ran this country it would not be such a mess, business men understand not killing the milk cow, business men would find a balance, we are over run with rats. Hillary is a big murdering thieving rat, at least Trump is not a murderer.
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Old 01-21-2016, 08:47 PM #281
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

The reason for those divides is capitalism, yes. That's the point of capitalism, to allow individuals to choose their own path, wealth or poverty.

The reason they are so extreme is not because of our economic policies, but because of our social policies. We are telling people that it's okay to sit at home and do nothing. Welfare pays more than minimum wage in most states. We are making people believe that the world owes them something, which it doesn't.

This allows the people who are willing to see past the government BS and work hard to make much, much more, because there's simply less competition.

This all but eliminates the middle class, and creates the massive wealth inequality we see on the charts you provided.
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Old 01-21-2016, 11:38 PM #282
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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I just think it's absurd to dismiss any candidate out of conditioned fear for a word
Come on, we are all smarter than that. It is not fear of a WORD. It is fear and response to the philosophy based on theft. Socialism is wrong for all the reasons given above. We should reject it and its advocate.

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Ok, so given the position we are in, the solution you advocate is going with possibly the worst candidate, to make thing so bad that the system crashes?
I did not see anyone make that proposal. That is sort of the antiparticle to this thread. "Who do you least support for president"?

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As someone most definitely stuck in the bottom 60% - as most people are - socialism, with limits on it, definitely seems like a superior option
This is a very important point. If you feel trapped, economically in the current system and favor socialism then you are proving the point that the rest of us are advocating. The American Dream is the concept of a better future made possible by personal achievement in a free society. This has historically been contrasted to the more rigid European social system, not to mention the far more restrictive caste system in India. Socialism would allow you to receive benefits that have to be paid for by someone and if your situation improves then that someone is someone else... by definition. If you visualize that someone as Warren Buffett then a billion more or less wont be noticed, but when the magnitude of that redistribution requires that it is your middle class neighbor who is working a second job then yuck, that's shitty.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:01 AM #283
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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The American Dream is the concept of a better future made possible by personal achievement in a free society.
Except that out society is nowhere near as free, as we've been brainwashed into believing since we were kids.

By an objective measure, US is not even in the top five of the most "free" nations in the world.

The kind of socialism being advocated for by Sanders, is about setting a more even bottom starting point for everyone. So while many will still get a head start, at least those currently completely at the bottom of will have more of a chance.






US is by far the richest nation in the world. With by far the most spending per person on medical care, by far the largest military, and incredible natural and technical resources.

Yet we're to believe that there isn't enough in the budget to make sure that people don't end up bankrupt if they get sick? That if they work all their lives they can retire with some comfort? That kids coming out high school, retards by any objective measure, should be forced to make life altering financial decisions that can cripple their futures?

I don't buy it.

So yes, those are socialist notions, but I certainly don't see them as theft. I see them as social obligations. Those who can help, especially with no significant impact to their lives, should help.

On an unrelated note...


He would make for a much easier to make fun of president. Obama has been pretty bad with his lack of social gaffe's I miss Bush's humorous antics, though definitely not his policies.

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Old 01-23-2016, 06:57 AM #284
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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So yes, those are socialist notions, but I certainly don't see them as theft. I see them as social obligations. Those who can help, especially with no significant impact to their lives, should help.
The rest of us see them as theft because it is based on taking without permission. Those that can help should help if they choose to. You are side stepping the fundamental problem with socialism by trying to imply the effects won't be too bad or those receiving the benefit are noble. I could as easily portray a long suffering business owner risking his life savings, self sacrificing immediate gratification to build his business, being taxed into ruin to pay for some 18 year old single mother of three with three different daddys.

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The kind of socialism being advocated for by Sanders, is about setting a more even bottom starting point for everyone. So while many will still get a head start, at least those currently completely at the bottom of will have more of a chance.
Again, your distorting this to justify it. Sanders plan will add $18,000,000,000,000 to our government's cost over the next 10 years and he is proposing $20,000,000,000,000 in ADDITIONAL taxes to pay for it. Sander's socialism is socialism.

This is stupid,unfair,unworkable and suicidal. This is wrong. I am getting the impression that your view of the world is like that cartoon. You set up a straw man to represent the evil rich and fantasize that the waitress would be standing where he is but for the unfairness of her birth.

You need to analyze your own situation and determine how to get yourself unstuck from that bottom 60%. You need to stop being jealous of the successful and stop looking for someone like Sanders to take what they have earned and give it to you. The example I gave you in the above post about the neighbor who is working two jobs is very real. Someone in exactly your situation who puts in more hours or who continues to work when you retire should not have to pay ANY of that hard earned income to you even if the impact is not "significant" by your standards. It is not fair and it is indeed theft.

Last edited by planters; 01-23-2016 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:38 PM #285
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Talking Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Most people with job skills and a supportive network, etc, cannot understand why someone is on welfare.

They were taught that people on welfare, don't want to work, and just want to stay home and get paid for doing nothing.

The reality is simply more complicated. For example, most on welfare on not on welfare their entire lives, most on welfare were working, but, just didn't have a good skill set for what was out there. A plant closes, the economy crashes, and they are out of work.

So, if you get say $300/m for welfare, and you are paying rent, food, etc, out of that, its not typically enough. If you get a part time job to suppliment that, your earnings are deducted from the welfare check...so, you are working and not getting any extra money.

To get around that, the grey market work, cash/under the table, type supplemental work is done instead.

Some climb their way back out again. They work the part time job for free essentially, maybe for years...hoping a full time opening will happen, and/or they learn enough to aply for a better job, etc.

Some can't justify working for free...so, they sell drugs, or babysit, or do other off the books type work - and become part of the underground economy.

The fact is that the majority of those on welfare are on it for a short time, and then are off it, analogous to unemployment insurance. According to the statistics, half of the case loads are released annually. IE: 50% of the people were on for a year or less.

The stereotype that they all have more babies to get more $ is also false, so while SOME might, they are statistically insignificant, and the number of children for a family on welfare is the same as for those who are not.

Sure, there ARE those who have become institutionalized, and to whom welfare is all they know...and who tend to be low on literacy and skills, and difficult to employ. They are not the majority though.

-------------------

If you want to eliminate programs that help those who have fallen/ are down on their luck, and where taxes are used to do social good, etc...then you would eliminate social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment insurance, tuition assistance, subsidized loans, food banks, public schools, museums, veterans hospitals, Hoover Dams, highways, etc.

That way, no taxes would be wasted on social good.

It could be like Sparta, where weak looking babies are thrown off a cliff.

If you can't make it on your own, you are eliminated.

-----------------------

If that seems great, then that's your ideal set up. If it seems a bit harsh/less civilized, perhaps you can add back in some programs where your taxes go to others, so bridges and roads, etc, can be built.

Maybe you think getting money for nothing after a certain AGE is ok, and you are ok with your taxes going to some old geezer who is a millionaire, or broke, etc. Maybe you want to say the broke geezer gets the money and the millionaire doesn't, etc.

Maybe a guy who gets laid off should simply lose his home and job, and be homeless, and there should be no shelters or other support services, or, maybe there should be some funds to get him through the rough patch until he can get another job?

If a road in NJ is built using NJ taxes, and you come from PA and drive on it, are you stealing a service you didn't pay for?

If you are retired, and have no kids or grand kids going to the local school system, should your taxes have to go to that school system? How about the library, you don't like to read, why should your taxes be wasted on books you did not want?

You are against war, so, you want your taxes reduced by the amount for the military?

And so forth...are you being robbed? No one gave you the choice of saying that YOUR taxes would not go to books or to a veterans hospital.

---------------------

Which type of society is ideal, to you?


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Old 01-23-2016, 06:17 PM #286
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

For myself, it comes down to Bernie and Trump, but which one would be better right now for one to two terms? I think we might need Trump as a start and someone like Bernie as a follow up but I am still concerned about the socialism he wants to bring, I prefer a free market system to keep things in balance, the cost of healthcare is skyrocketing due to Obamacare where the free market is no longer as much a factor.

Even before Obamacare I agree that healthcare in the US and many countries is far too high, we pay our medical professionals at much higher rates than other professions but not all places in the world are this way and you can still get good health care in many areas of expertise. I had 7 crowns done in Ukraine four years ago for 1000 dollars, in Alaska they are closer to 1800 dollars EACH. I am very satisfied with the work too, the dental office was just as up to date and high tech as our own here in the USA too and a short wait to get the work done. If our medicine becomes completely socialized the time it takes to get something done is stretched out far longer as the system becomes worse and worse as the government takes more and more of a cut from both the doctors as well as the patients. Is this what you really want? Reduced healthcare because the time it takes to get something done is increased while our health care costs are also increased? Seems like a lose-lose to me.

From the beginning I had the impression the Obamacare program was a ruse to force us to pay more into the government, and it is, if you don't show proof of insurance you pay a penalty, that is what this is really about. This program is a very shrewd method the government has come up with to get us to pay more into the tax system, that's all, another way of getting their claws into your earnings. In time I know what this will morph into, where we are all paying single tier into a health care system which gives you half the value you pay for, if even close to that, the rest going into the government to pay for political power plays, the same way they started robbing social security, you won't get what you put into it if you are a hard working individual.

In time, all I see coming out of this direction is an invisible tattoo on our foreheads which says SLAVE TO THE STATE. The free market system is the only one which works for us, not against us, in the long run. There is no free ride.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:07 PM #287
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

Teej and Alaskan are both right. Both are weighing the benefits and costs of social welfare. Each of us is going to have a preferred balance.

The system for deciding this in practice is where the problems begin. My 100 people in a room analogy or the pushers vs the passengers in the cart analogy illustrate that the system is unstable. As more and more of us depend on the labor of others the power relentlessly slides toward the takers. No matter where you prefer the balance, the pressure is to slide from there to more socialism. Does anyone deny that this pressure exists? Social stigma, personal pride, religious directives can push back, but if it is simply the individual looking out for his wants then the possessions of others are tempting.

Another way of presenting this is to carry it to the extreme and determine if you are still OK with it. We all have the same income whether we work or not, whether we contribute a lot of value or rely completely on the work of others. This could be short term or we may be in the same situation for life. This is not different than the socialism advocated above only more of the same. Can anyone imagine society prospering with that motivation for individual achievement? I can't.

Quote:
I had 7 crowns done in Ukraine four years ago for 1000 dollars, in Alaska they are closer to 1800 dollars EACH.
That is the free market working its magic. If you are free to travel to the Ukraine, pay to stay while the work is done and accept the risk that followup will be limited then this is fantastic. You could even consider the possibility of creating a dental travel agency that pairs Alaskan patients with Ukrainian dentists. You have $11,600 net to work with. Socialism will just pay the Alaskan dentist something less than $1,800/crown and someone in Ohio will pay for it even though he wears dentures, never met you and makes less money than you do (just guessing here). Now, which scenario sounds more ludicrous?

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In time, all I see coming out of this direction is an invisible tattoo on our foreheads which says SLAVE TO THE STATE. The free market system is the only one which works for us, not against us, in the long run. There is no free ride.
I agree and that is why we need to push back.
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Old 01-23-2016, 10:55 PM #288
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

There is such a thing as medical tourism, currently about 750,000 Americans a year travel to other countries for treatment that is unaffordable here in the U.S. Many years ago my mother went to Mexico for dental work that would have cost many thousands of dollars here. Many people travel to China and India for organ transplants and other operations.

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