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Old 01-20-2016, 07:16 PM #257
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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I think we can pretty much all agree we want a smaller government and less intrusive regulation where laws are concerned. We also want a far far more efficient government.
I agree, but I would keep them in that order and with a big gap between #1 and #2.

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Personally I don't think immigration is as big of an issue as it's being made out to be.
I disagree. I think we have been tolerating the effects for so long that the costs are less apparent. The legal immigration system is threatened if we ignore the illegal component of the illegals and allow them to benefit in some way for having broken our immigration laws. Immigrants, and especially illegals, are much more dependent on social services and are a crushing burden to our health care system and this system is hardly operating in the black. I disagree when you say we have an arbitrary system. I think it is more accurate to say we have a corrupt, unenforced system. Unlike the "refuges" in Europe, many of our illegals are here because they prefer it. There is not even the sham of fleeing war. The current citizens of the US deserve to be considered first and foremost. In-state tuition for illegals vs out of state tuition for US citizens of other states is one of the many effects that we have become numb to.

I do not think direct democracy will work while we remain so deeply tied to such a huge, intrusive and complicated bureaucracy. It is this complex bureaucracy that would make this transition impossible. I agree with Alaskan that the system will probably have to change substantially or even collapse before a cleaner, simpler system will be allowed to work. Think about the level of fear and the attacks that have occurred simply threatening the nomination of either Sanders or Trump.


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Old 01-20-2016, 07:41 PM #258
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Immigrants, and especially illegals, are much more dependent on social services and are a crushing burden to our health care system and this system is hardly operating in the black.
This is in large part due to the catch 22 position they are placed in. They utilize services in such a way that is most detrimental from a cost/benefit analysis. Instead of going to see a doctor who will need to get back to them, document them, report them, etc,. they end up going to an emergency room, because they know they will get SOME treatment immediately. Nevermind that it ends up turning a relatively inexpensive treatment, into something that the hospital later writes off on taxes to the tune of thousands.

Why do these people do that? Because they are afraid of being deported. Remove that fear and you will see them going to a doctor instead.

I also disagree with you that hospitals are operating in the red. The healthcare industry in the US is very much alive and well. In large part supported by insane rules. The very same prescriptions that will cost you hundreds or thousands here, cost literally just a few bucks to manufacturer, and are far cheaper.

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The current citizens of the US deserve to be considered first and foremost. In-state tuition for illegals vs out of state tuition for US citizens of other states is one of the many effects that we have become numb to.
There, we completely agree. I'd have happily gone to an out state college, if it was in any way affordable to do so.

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I do not think direct democracy will work while we remain so deeply tied to such a huge, intrusive and complicated bureaucracy. It is this complex bureaucracy that would make this transition impossible. I agree with Alaskan that the system will probably have to change substantially or even collapse before a cleaner, simpler system will be allowed to work. Think about the level of fear and the attacks that have occurred simply threatening the nomination of either Sanders or Trump.
We're definitely on the same page there. I'd just rather not see a violent collapse.
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Old 01-20-2016, 09:40 PM #259
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Old 01-21-2016, 05:08 AM #260
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

The health care industry is far from alive and well. I have intimate knowledge of this industry and the situation is dire. Many hospitals are operating at a loss. The infrastructure is aging, roofs are leaking, surgical instruments are 1/2 a century old and corners are being cut. Staff are caring for growing patient ratios and workers with ever less training are caring for patients. The industry is continuing to depend on inertia, on legacy assets in equipment and manpower, but this equipment will need to be replaced and aging workers will retire. Most nurses in my state are looking at wage stagnation for the last decade. Tax write offs have no meaning when you are operating at a loss. Most people are unaware of this because the most frequent users are the very elderly. The extreme poor from the third world are not in a position to judge and many of us go decades before we need to access the system.

It is true that preventative care can reduce the cost of health care, but remember many of these illegals are young and fertile They have babies and this means OB care and occasionally incredibly expensive neonatal care. The initial assumption is the problem. Finding ways to reduce the cost TO US for these illegals' care is the false premise. This is not our responsibility. This is not our problem. This should not be our cost because they should not be here.

I haven't even mentioned the increased criminal costs and the police resources spent on illegals.

The point is that it should be a privilege, a petition to be allowed to enter a country. Citizens' relatives and ancestors have been maimed, killed and have sacrificed much to bequeath this nation to us. It is our country and our constitution that authorizes the laws that we live by. Corrupt politicians that disparage us to allow illegals into the country to generate votes or undermine US worker's wages MUST GO. Short of revolution or civil war we need to elect politicians that don't like the status quo that won't work with the power brokers and the bankers and D.W. Schultz or Rinsed Prius.

Again, as I've said before Trump is not the answer; he would just be the beginning. During the upset in business-as-usual we support the election of truly new voices. There are some really bright and productive individuals in this country. It is crazy that the choices we are offered is a third Bush or a Clinton retread. Come on man, these assholes are the best we can do? Surely not!
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:20 AM #261
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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So opening every decision to a majority vote, where anyone can vote, would imo, be a disaster.
I've been hearing this same view point for 45 years now, if we are too stupid to vote as a direct democracy, what makes us any more qualified to pick a representative?

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Again, as I've said before Trump is not the answer; he would just be the beginning. During the upset in business-as-usual we support the election of truly new voices. There are some really bright and productive individuals in this country. It is crazy that the choices we are offered is a third Bush or a Clinton retread. Come on man, these assholes are the best we can do? Surely not!
YES, lets start the change, I see no one better than Trump right now to bring about the beginning....
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:46 AM #262
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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I've been hearing this same view point for 45 years now, if we are too stupid to vote as a direct democracy, what makes us any more qualified to pick a representative?
I agree, and we don't need lawers making all of the decisions for us, they are some of the most greedy untrustworthy people on earth, though we would still need representatives to write the legislation. Then if voters vote on it there is still a problem, sometimes it's going to be a thousand pages or more long, how many people are going to read it all, members of congress don't have time to read everything they vote on, their staff reads it and gives them a summary. There is no perfect system that I can think of but we can certainly make some improvements.

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Old 01-21-2016, 06:53 AM #263
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I'd like to run a dummy direct vote web site where we somehow verify the people voting aren't a bunch of sock puppets and see how it works.
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:25 PM #264
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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though we would still need representatives to write the legislation. Then if voters vote on it there is still a problem, sometimes it's going to be a thousand pages or more long, how many people are going to read it all,

You're right, but think about what you are implying. One of the few things I have heard Rand Paul say, that I really liked, was that the tax form should be one page long. Remember the quote? "All I really need to know I learned in kindergarten".
The constitution, which is the basis for our entire government, is not very long. It is profound, but it does not take a lawyer to understand it or to implement it, just to complicate it.

We don't need 1000 page legislation. It is only so long to hide the theft. The tax code is 80,000 pages long! Our government is WAY, WAY, WAY too big. The smaller the government, the smaller the problems and the more practical the solutions such as direct popular representation.

With direct democracy we would bypass one of the protections of our government set up, which is the separation of powers. If we leave the judiciary and the executive branch alone for the moment, the purpose of the two houses of congress was to give the states a voice in the Senate and the people a direct voice through the House. This was to balance the effects of large and populous states with the concentrated power (per person) of smaller states.

I think it would be practical to make the House a directly representative body where each Representative used referenda, say on line, to guide their votes. If the issue is too complex for us to understand then it is too complex for them to understand. Please forgive my ego, but most of the people I work with and discuss with on line are as intelligent as these politicians (probably even more so).
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Old 01-21-2016, 12:45 PM #265
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Talking Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I'm not convinced that hiring a looser like Trump to run the country would be a good idea.

He's as likely to sell out as Bush or Clinton, if not more so, based upon his biz dealings in NJ at least...and is primarily interested in the well being of Donald Trump, rather than of the US.

I think the country is just SO damn sick of politicians, that even a guy as poor a choice as leader as Trump starts to seem like a reasonable alternative.

This is compounded BY the other candidates, as they WOULD probably just be more of the same. Its gotten so some democrats are looking at Trump as an alternative for the same reason many republicans are.

Bernie might be an exception, as far as being an honest campaigner for change, rather than just as a slogan, but he uses the "S WORD" in his campaign platform, which tends to scare away the ~ 45+ voters...and he's a democrat, which scares away most republicans.

When people look at the choices, a lot will simply shrug and stay home on election day.

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Old 01-21-2016, 02:17 PM #266
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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I'm not convinced that hiring a looser like Trump to run the country would be a good idea
Then don't vote for him. I like what a "looser like Trump" bodes for the political system over the next few years. So, I will vote for him if I get the chance.

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I think the country is just SO damn sick of politicians, that even a guy as poor a choice as leader as Trump starts to seem like a reasonable alternative.
With this I agree fully.

Bernie uses the S word, I'll say it SOCIALISM, because that is his platform. It does scare away the 45+ voters and it should scare away the 45 (-) voters as well. Socialism is an abomination. It's a scam for the elitists that funnel the money from the producers to the dependents. It increases the number of dependents and it is attractive in theory, but fails in practice.

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When people look at the choices, a lot will simply shrug and stay home on election day.
That is what the leaders of both parties are hoping for. Both Sanders and Trump energize their supporters and will counter this and that is good. Our choices have been dictated too long. "Nothing to see here, move along" and we get another Clinton or Bush and the gravy train continues for the elite.
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Old 01-21-2016, 02:34 PM #267
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

I will be totally honest, and at the risk of over simplifying, say what many feel in their subconscious.

Trump scares the hell out of me!

But no where near as much as that criminal tyrant Hillary.

So if HALF ??? the democratic voters who would vote Hillary over Rubio/Bush/------ will embrace Trump as real change and hope them I won't split the vote.

p.s. Yes our healthcare is a mess and doctors are quitting. But the "fix" that Hillary would put in is more Obamacare and medical care will just be another form of control, yet people will suffer even more medically, just look at the VA Hospital if you want to see a picture of American government run healthcare.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:07 PM #268
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Bernie uses the S word, I'll say it SOCIALISM, because that is his platform. It does scare away the 45+ voters and it should scare away the 45 (-) voters as well. Socialism is an abomination. It's a scam for the elitists that funnel the money from the producers to the dependents. It increases the number of dependents and it is attractive in theory, but fails in practice.
Your thinking of communism. Social ism works very well, and it what most European countries have, and even canada. Now tell me that Canadians aren't happy with cheap private schooling and free healthcare. Who cares how high taxes might be, you hardly have to pay for anything yourself and it makes using your own money for fun much easier, it litterally gives you more spending money.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:47 PM #269
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by micheal rosen View Post
Your thinking of communism. Social ism works very well, and it what most European countries have, and even canada. Now tell me that Canadians aren't happy with cheap private schooling and free healthcare. Who cares how high taxes might be, you hardly have to pay for anything yourself and it makes using your own money for fun much easier, it litterally gives you more spending money.
It's also working so horribly in Norway, and Switzerland. Such a horrible horrible system, what with good healthcare, including dental and vision (how the f*ck that's not part of regular health insurance in the US? - CAPITALISM!!! WOO HOO!), and actually higher incomes than we have here in the US, and an overall much higher quality of life.

Less work, more vacations, better food, healthier people. Frankly if it wasn't for the god awful weather, and needing to learn another language, and to be honest, lack of funds, I'd move there.

Capitalism without any restraint, which is what most 50+ voters tend to clamor for, is exactly what got the US to where we are now

I mean richest company/donor/lobbyist buys the vote he/they want. System so good it has worked wonderfully... for the top .001%.

The problem with too many people, they think they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires that are in some way that .001%, so socialism is going to take away their riches. Except they, me, you, we're not rich, and most of us never will be.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:58 PM #270
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

We are not the Swiss, they are better people than many of us, present company excluded.
The American government needs a reset button, not like Hillary's but the system is so corrupt right now that I can't see a pound of good being done for the people by our current government without 1776 pounds of pork attached.


Yes I know you caught it, Trump is the spirit of 1776.
Trump is the spark to get the freedom fires burning in the American hearts.
Hillary is the blow torch of oppression and any government run anything under her will be a huge power grab with no benefits to anyone.
Just look at the VA Hospitals, that is what we will get, along with intrusion, loss of freedom, and ever increasing control, expect massive rationing as we are in debt.

Our problems were not created overnight and won't be fixed overnight, but we need to get headed in the right direction.
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You can not put freedom in a bag.
It is in fact an abstract concept.
Yet it is the single most valuable thing anyone has ever had.

Last edited by RedCowboy; 01-21-2016 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:18 PM #271
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Your thinking of communism. Social ism works very well, and it what most European countries have, and even canada
No, I am not. I know what socialism is and we also have it in the US as well. It is not binary it is a spectrum.

Quote:
Now tell me that Canadians aren't happy with cheap private schooling and free healthcare
All right I will. Schooling is not free it is being paid for by someone. The problem is that those that benefit are not necessarily those that pay the bills. The Mayo cares for a lot of Canadians that are less than happy with long lines for MRI's and joint replacements. The US has long been the Canadians' and Europeans' back up plan when their health systems have fallen short.

Quote:
Who cares how high taxes might be, you hardly have to pay for anything yourself and it makes using your own money for fun much easier, it litterally gives you more spending money.
I'm not usually so dense, but I seriously can't be sure if you are serious. Your first sentence is what makes this so hard.

Quote:
Less work, more vacations, better food, healthier people.
Why move when Bernie will give you all this? If he wins then many people will join you in line for all the goodies.

It will be interesting to see what happens to Norway over the next few years. I'm not talking about all the refuges clamoring to get on the dole, rather the huge cost of Norway's socialist programs has been historically funded by North Sea oil revenues. At $27/barrel and dropping, this isn't going to be pretty.

Put 100 people in a room and let them vote. 60 people decide to confiscate all the property of the other 40. The majority call it democratic socialism and the 40 call it theft. Go Bernie!
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Old 01-21-2016, 06:25 PM #272
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Default Re: LPF's Presidential Candidate Vote USA

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Originally Posted by planters View Post
Put 100 people in a room and let them vote. 60 people decide to confiscate all the property of the other 40. The majority call it democratic socialism and the 40 call it theft. Go Bernie!
If the country were 100 people, a more appropriate analogy would be 1 guy with 65% of the resources, telling 10 guys how he want things done them doing it for 15% of the remaining resources, and the other 89 guys scrambling for the remaining 20% of what's left, while the 10 guys overseeing it tell them how they only have each other to blame.

That's called income inequality. Wealth gap. Wall street run amok, tax evasion and profit shifting.

It needs to be addressed. Trump is one of those 10 guys. So yeah. Go Bernie!
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