Leonard Susskind on The World As Hologram

Marco Polo said:

I see the word "theory" misused a lot.

This "holographic universe" idea is not a theory. It isn't even a hypothesis. "Holographic universe" is not wrong, because it's not even wrong – nothing about it can be meaningfully tested, and in fact it makes few to no predictions at all.

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Then why are millions of dollars being spent on it and scientists calling it a theory to test? Stupid media reporting it that way, or educated idiots labeled as scientists using the term wrong. Below you will find a story about some scientists who have what they see as a meaningful way to test the idea. I will agree, it won't be conclusive, but it will bring us to a point where the theory, if you will excuse me for using that word, can either be dismissed, or continue to be a plausible idea, many daring to continue the use of the T word.

A very recent story:

Fermilab Begins Testing Holographic Universe Theory Aug 27, 2014

Back in 2009, researchers theorized that space could be a hologram.Four years ago, Fermilab proposed testing the theory, and the experiment is finally going online. Jason Koebler (3528235) writes Operating with cutting-edge technology out of a trailer in rural Illinois, government researchers started today on a set of experiments that they say will help them determine whether or not you and me and everything that exists are living in a two-dimensional holographic universe. In a paper explaining the theory, Craig Hogan, director of the Department of Energy’s Fermilab Center for Particle Astrophysics writes that "some properties of space and time that seem fundamental, including localization [where things are], may actually emerge only as a macroscopic approximation from the flow of information in a quantum system." In other words, the location of places in space may constantly fluctuate ever so slightly, which would suggest we’re living in a hologram.

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....or, something else we don't understand is going on.

Searching further, it appears this test will take many months to complete.

There were a couple of papers dealing with some mathematical tests on some hypothetical universes. That's hardly the same thing as a real-world theory with real-world implications and predictions.

"Universe is a hologram" is not only not right; it's not even wrong. Pauli put it well.

eta: Regarding spending money on things: Apparently, at one point, the Pentagon spent $6 million to determine whether burning the photo of a Soviet missile would destroy the missile. Clearly, the government spending millions on something is no proof of anything, except, perhaps, misplaced priorities.

Yes, an effective diss, Richard Feynman was fond of using it from time to time in his lectures. Still, regarding the money and the scientists working on proving or disproving the "theory", it is real science, maybe wrong science, but they are using scientific means to find the answer.

I'm confused how do we stand on the ground if it is a hologram? Sorry just got here.

:thinking:

Laser Project! Its so funny, you keep changing your avatar and I keep thinking you are a different person. I tend to connect members to their avatars in my mind. :crackup:

Edit: sorry for the interruption from the topic. Please continue. :yh:

Ah, I'm playing around with avatars for the hell of it, no good reason. I find one I think is cool then think not later, then find a stupid one I laugh at and put it up, then think it's too stupid, then change...

I don't know if the base nature of the universe has holographic qualities or not, but when I started this thread I called it fact, now.... a an open question, but even if it does have such properties, it doesn't mean we live in a projection from some alien computer.

Laser Project said:

it doesn't mean we live in a projection from some alien computer.

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On the other hand, it doesn't mean we don't live in a projection from some alien computer. Maybe lasers don't really exist and all of this is just a really strange drug-induced dream/trip brought on by eating some plant or another, and when it ends it will really be 25000 BC or something – all simulated on a quantum computer in a lab somewhere on the opposite side of the galaxy.

You just never know!

The real mystery is whether the disembodied spirit of the Prophet Elvis Presley, back by his army of space jackalopes, is manning the controls of the alien-computer-hologram-universe, and whether His Elvisness is using this power for good or evil or simply for Rock-and-Roll.

That is the "open question" we need to consider.

Wow, someone else who wonders about the same things I do, we need to be close friends. Do you believe in reincarnation too? I could post some links about that subject I find interesting.... but, then I get negs, so I won't. Aren't you all lucky! Seriously, I never liked Elvis Presley and the popular out of their minds idea that the universe is projected from some alien computer is too far for even me.... But, you never know until the fat lady sings, I guess. Whether consciousness survives death is something I am interested in but I can also see a benefit for death being the complete end because then I won't have to put up with any more BS.

Laser Project said:

Wow, someone else who wonders about the same things I do, we need to be close friends.

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This is more demonstration of confirmation bias and a closed mind.

Do you believe in reincarnation too?

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Sort of. It depends on how you define it. I don't believe anything like phoenix down currently exists because there is no evidence in support of it. However, I do "believe" in "resurrection" within a certain framework, which I've outlined below.

Some years back my cat died unexpectedly at the age of 15. It was so fast; he went from apparently just fine to dead in about 2.5 days. Not sure what happened, although apparently older male cats are prone to kidney and urinary problems that can go downhill in a hurry. The whole thing really made me angry.

Ultimately what helped me get past it was that I reasoned out that the cat is actually not dead; he's still alive, not as a cat, but in the sense that the atoms and whatnot that were part of the cat have been taken up and integrated into other living things, reworked into the components of functioning cells. The cat has been resurrected, but in other forms and in multiple places.

You can demonstrate that the distribution of atoms/mass is true – that is how the food chain works. You could use radiolabelled molecules, isotopic analysis, and probably some other things to show that conclusively.

Believing the cat is, in fact, alive is an arbitrary decision and has to be accepted on faith or else rejected as unscientific. (i.e. "not even wrong" - it is not a 'diss' it simply means the argument in question cannot be tested or falsified in any replicable fashion.) The definition of "resurrection" that I'm using is likewise an arbitrary decision.

Point being, having reasoned out that the cat has been "resurrected" albeit in different forms, it was enough to let me move on and be OK with things rather than being depressed for a long time. That was the whole point. We got the cat when he was a year old, so he was around for a long time, and I was very attached. It was worth figuring out a way to break that attachment in a constructive manner rather than an unconstructive one.

Is my reasoning on that subject crackpot material? I don't think so, because I don't claim that any of it is THE TRUTH, in fact I claim the opposite. There are no conspiracy theories here, no appeals to spending millions, no claims that "science is wrong." It's merely a truth that can exist from the standpoint of a certain mindset and world view, it is not an objective, global truth.

I do know that it was an effective solution to the problem at hand (dealing with grief), and that in general it can be applied to similar situations provided that the concepts are compatible with your world view. If they're not compatible, that's not a problem; some people see things differently and need to take a different approach. I have no idea if any of what I said will work (or even make sense) to anyone else, but it did make sense to me and I felt better.

TLDR: Yes, I believe in resurrection, but with very specific and very strict qualifications.

I think we should all let these threads die the stupidly moronic death they deserve.

crazyspaz said:

I think we should all let these threads die the stupidly moronic death they deserve.

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With no resurrection

I enjoyed the last few posts, don't see them as stupid, mine are too often that, but not all of the responses. From what I've been able to understand about physics, every electron or photon are identical, the only differences are wavelength, direction and lifetime, otherwise they are the same. I've read a article about the one-electron universe postulate which was interesting too. From these, one could look at all of matter being composed of the same thing, or identical duplicates of one another and in that way, we are all living parallel lives or another way of looking at it, we are all the same thing living separate lives, the separateness an illusion, if we are at our base cloned particles, electrons, or what ever.

I used to have a difficult time accepting death, I found one way of thinking about it which helped me accept it. Although for the body, as a system, death is a destruction of the individual, it is a purely natural process, nothing is really going wrong, matter is following normal physics, no laws are being broken, the matter isn't destroyed and there is also the possibility that what ever has existed, continues to exist, in the past, as we move forward. Of course, there is nothing to substantiate this that I know of, the possibility of time travel might, though. To me, my thoughts about the death and decomposition of the body being a purely nature process and that the matter we are made of continues to exist is somewhat of a cousin of the way you viewed your dead cat, or still do today. Although, I didn't think of the angle that the matter our bodies are composed of continues through the uptake by other forms of life. I suppose I wouldn't consider such when I already view all of life the same life living lives in parallel though many diversified forms, past, present and future included.

As far as the reincarnation thing I flippantly threw out there, I've seen what I believe to be enough evidence that one can think it possible, I don't deny the possibility. On the other hand, I also view every human being, for that matter, all life, as being one and that we are all living our lives in parallel from the past through the present and into the future. I don't mean to insult any ones sense of stature when I write such a thing, many do not want to be one with earth worms or other creatures they consider far below them, it doesn't bother me to think that way, but some reject it out of hand thinking themselves above other life forms. The human race is "above" simple life forms in body and capability in so many ways, yet composed of the same elements, at our base, not much difference, if you go deep enough down the matter rabbit hole, no differences at the atomic level.

From the perspective of scale, we as human beings and or animals do live our lives in a middle place above the finite structures of matter and the infinity of space, right smack dab in the middle between macro and micro, so from our point of view, that is where it counts. I wish I could find it now, but last year I read an article which showed the scale from micro through macro and it just happens that we are actually in the exact middle of the two extremes, when it comes to pure scale.

OK, to leap a large distance to another direction but still on the subject of scale:

New Hubble space telescope findings show galaxies which are much further away than prior discoveries, pushing the new distance for the observable universe out to as far as 46 billion light years away, more than three times further than previously observed. Also, considering we can see 46 billion light years in the opposite direction too, that makes the new diameter of the observable universe to be close to 92 billion light years but according to new theory, this is is nothing compared to the possible size of the real universe which is ten billion trillion times larger than that.

That's 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times larger and thus the complete universe is to the observable universe as the observable universe is to an atom. Now that's some awesome scaling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaX4...fc&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_586138

I like that, I see a lot of irrational rejection going on, mostly through incorrect assumption of what some members are actually saying. From what I can tell, it isn't allowed to bring questionable or wrong concepts into discussion in open forums without being attacked for your current state of views. There is no call for attacking one another where our world views differ, even if starkly different. After all, few of us are masters of anything, most of us are more ignorant about reality than not (dare I say every single one of us?). Some more than others, but so what? We are all in this damn boat together. To me, it is more important to be kind to one another than to be right, in the long run, if we are wrong about something show one another your viewpoint, just maybe, possibly, there is just a misunderstanding instead of someone being wrong, or not even close enough to wrong to be that.

Ah, this problem is wired into human nature, after all, people kill each other every day for differences of view, especially where religion is involved. I don't know we can solve it without some kind of genetic upgrade to make us more understanding. There are probably pitfalls to such too, if we did... Become too understanding, too kind and someone else who isn't just has you for lunch. Maybe all is well in the world after all.

Disagree, don't like what I wrote? Lunch is on me, go ahead. After all, I have no popularity points, ripe for the picking folks! I might not have points, but the number of posts tally keeps rising and so far, no one with the powers to boot me has told me to shut up or be banned. I'm trying to stay within the rules, but honestly, when I see all those negs coming in I just want to write more... while also, trying to stay within the limits of the forum rules. I've broken them in the past, but trying not to. Just in case you don't think I know, I just said something too open hearted and honest not to be attacked for it.