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Old 04-16-2007, 07:00 PM #1
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Default Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Hi Everyone,
I recently ran across a video on Youtube by Gregstoner1369 showing what I think is a pretty irresponsible demonstration of a laser, a 175mw Aries by LaserGlow. * At the end of the video it states ¨Video by Senkat.¨ *Now, I´m not sure it´s the same Senkat on this forum, and hopefully we can clear this up here. *Apparently I don´t have the authorization to post links here, but if you search youtube for a 175mw Aries Laserglow titled ¨Laserglow Aries 175 Balloon Massacre¨ you´ll see what I mean. *
1) Neither party in the video has goggles on.
2) The beam is being pointed in the direction immediately facing a reflective aluminum ladder with unpredictable angles of reflection. * The guinea pig is the laser operator´s daughter. * She´s holding the balloons that are being popped. * The subject, the daughter, is facing the aluminum ladder. * *

In my view, this is a great way to raise the likelihood of serious eye damage. *Anyone agree? Disagree?





EDIT BY MODERATOR: HERE IS THE LINK, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME0GYr1Jvr0


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Old 04-16-2007, 07:19 PM #2
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Senkat is a very responsible laser owner and has helped out many people on this forum from what I've heard. I'm sure he knows what he's doing and I'm sure he would never intentionally put his daughter at risk. I think you're blowing this out of proportion, he's not shinning it at the ladder only at the balloons.
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Old 04-16-2007, 07:29 PM #3
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Honestly if it were anyone else I would agree with you, it does seem a little risky, but I know for a fact that SenKat is a responsible laser user who fully understands what lasers can do and acts according.

We can ony see a small bit of what is happening from a video, I am sure if we were in SenKat's perspenctive, things would be perfectly safe.
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Old 04-16-2007, 09:14 PM #4
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Aluminum ladders typically have a difuse etched finish which could reflect a difused beam, but so scattered as to be within safe limits.
I also noted that the ladder was above the beam path. I just now illuminated my alum ladder with my DL95 looking at the reflected spot. Bright but no reflex from extreme reflection.
During the dual balloon pop, He also instructed the person to look away.

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Old 04-16-2007, 10:31 PM #5
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

I see a few responses so far and while I respect your opinions I must disagree for the most part. I´m sure Senkat has a lot of experience and such and I expect that in HIS hands the laser use may have been more or less safe. But this is a video on Youtube, posted for the world to see and I think any nonbiased person would think the average Joe out there who sees that video gets the impression that a 175mw laser is some sort of toy to play games with. Honestly, I was shocked when I saw Senkat´s name listed as the creator of the video as I didn´t expect something like that ¨endorsed¨by him. I mean, the laser actually hits that ladder and reflects off at a close distance to the subject, the daughter in this case. Who can predict exactly where the reflection will go? The video also shows the laser light bouncing off the balloon and reflecting off the guy´s glasses (not goggles). The video is virtually a demonstration on how NOT to use a laser. I don´t see how you guys can think this is a responsible video given the high caution given to this very dangerous device that I so often hear should be treated ¨like a firearm.¨ Yes, Senkat is pretty much an expert on lasers from what I know of him, certainly more an expert than I, and I personally like the guy from his posts and from his the helpful way he goes about things on here. But I just think he made an error in the judgement of his audience in this particular case. The issue isn´t necessarily whether or not the girl in the video (or the user of the laser himself) was in danger...It´s about the apparently casual and toy-like way the laser is used and portrayed as well as the signal it sends for others to go out and use one in a similar manner. I can imagine a number of people seeing that video going out and buying a 175mw and pointing it all over the place with neither goggles nor a clue on how dangerous these things can be.

I´d be interested in Senkat´s response if you´re out there because I´d like to see if there´s even a slight agreement with the points I´m trying to make. Thanks for listening.
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:37 PM #6
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Geolaserest,

I believe you are too quick to judge. *This video was all of 63 seconds long. *We do not hear anything that was said BEFORE the recording was started.

For the black inside red baloon demonstration, she was directed to look away. *For the first demonstration, she may have been directed to have her eyes closed. *This is something we do not know. *Also, as Mike said, the ladder was above the beam path.

Judging by SenKats 1500+ posts on this forum alone, I would take a gander that he has a reasonable amount of knowledge on lasers, and what they can do.

I believe that you have handled this situation very poorly, as you have now called him out, and made a video that you do not agree with more popular then it was. A PM would have worked perfectly, and then you could have moved onto a forum post, depending on what your PM outcome was. Instead you chose a degrading public post, while not having all the facts. I believe that is defmation of character...?

Correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 04-16-2007, 10:55 PM #7
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geolaserest
I see a few responses so far and while I respect your opinions I must disagree for the most part. * I´m sure Senkat has a lot of experience and such and I expect that in HIS hands the laser use may have been more or less safe. *But this is a video on Youtube, posted for the world to see and I think any nonbiased person would think the average Joe out there who sees that video gets the impression that a 175mw laser is some sort of toy to play games with. *Honestly, I was shocked when I saw Senkat´s name listed as the creator of the video as I didn´t expect something like that ¨endorsed¨by him. *I mean, the laser actually hits that ladder and reflects off at a close distance to the subject, the daughter in this case. *Who can predict exactly where the reflection will go? *The video also shows the laser light bouncing off the balloon and reflecting off the guy´s glasses (not goggles). * The video is virtually a demonstration on how NOT to use a laser. * I don´t see how you guys can think this is a responsible video given the high caution given to this very dangerous device that I so often hear should be treated ¨like a firearm.¨ * Yes, Senkat is pretty much an expert on lasers from what I know of him, certainly more an expert than I, and I personally like the guy from his posts and from his the helpful way he goes about things on here. *But I just think he made an error in the judgement of his audience in this particular case. *The issue isn´t necessarily whether or not the girl in the video (or the user of the laser himself) was in danger...It´s about the apparently casual and toy-like way the laser is used and portrayed as well as the signal it sends for others to go out and use one in a similar manner. *I can imagine a number of people seeing that video going out and buying a 175mw and pointing it all over the place with neither goggles nor a clue on how dangerous these things can be. *

I´d be interested in Senkat´s response if you´re out there because I´d like to see if there´s even a slight agreement with the points I´m trying to make. *Thanks for listening.

I think your a little too quick to judge, anyone who would be willing to go out and spend $800 dollars on a laser most likely will do a little bit of research of how to properly handle their new "toy" as not to break 800 dollars worth of murchandise becuase I don't know about you, but I don't have 800 dollars lying around to buy something I saw off a video on youtube.
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Old 04-17-2007, 01:15 AM #8
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Enough said here on what appears as a personal attack. -- Anyone have a lock ??

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Old 04-17-2007, 04:01 PM #9
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Wow, I didn´t quite expect such a defensive response from you all. I mean, to suggest blocking my posts is rather absurd and scary to me. And I thought the Patriot Act was bad! I´m glad whoever suggested that isn´t running the country, or we´d be Russia. I find it absolutely silly that my post is taken as ¨flaming¨ anyone. I´m not the one jumping to conclusions here. Pointing out what I feel is a rather careless demonstration of the use of a high powered laser should not be met with such censorship.

As I said (and I repeat) in my previous post, I said I think Senkat´s a nice guy, has helped a lot of people etc, educated others on lasers and what not. I did not know he was the one in the video until after the posts on this thread. Keep that in mind. I imagined there was a chance he might be, but I wasn´t sure and, in fact, hoped it wasn´t.

Again, Senkat seems to be confident that he´s using the laser responsibly at no risk to himself or his daughter...and that´s fine for him--No problem there. I don´t know him personally, and now that I know it´s him in the video, he appears to be a really likeable guy and one who would never intentionally harm his daughter. But I swear my first reaction to the video was, ¨OMG this guy´s got a 175mw and he´s pointing it near an aluminum ladder, popping balloons, as the rays bounce around and he nor his daughter are wearing goggles!!¨ Not to mention the video is introduced by a title board that reads ¨Clowning Around Starring the Laserglow Aries 175¨.

Enigmafied, You must not have read my post because your reply only supports my opinion, and I don´t think you meant to do that. You´re right, I nor anyone else viewing that video knows what was said before those 63 seconds. Perhaps Senkat did say something like...¨Okay, young lady...under no circumstances look towards the laser beam because it´s very, very dangerous.¨ That (the warning I mean) would have been nice to see in the video...although I did notice Senkat did advise his daughter at some middle section of the video to look away from the laser. I give him credit for that. By the way, a Moderator who posted in this thread essentially agreed that if the person in the video wasn´t Senkat (and I did not personally know it was Senkat until just now), he would agree it was a bit risky. So feel free to skewer him as well and call him/her a defamator too okay?

Senkat, Thanks for agreeing that I´m entitled to my opinion. At least one person out there thinks so. But you too have jumped to conclusions and missed certain points. First, I never assumed the girl in the video was YOUR daughter. I didn´t even know the one who filmed the video was the guy IN the video. I originally thought 3 people were involved-- The man, the girl, and the person shooting the video. But now that you mention it, the video camera is very stable implying only 2 people. In fact, I wasn´t even sure if the name ¨Senkat¨ at the end of the video was necessarily the one on this forum (in other words, You). I thought it COULD be, but I wasn´t sure. I prefaced that in my first post here. I learned these facts only after several posts, including yours, had been made.

Second, the issue (again) in my postings on this forum isn´t necessarily that YOUR daughter was in danger per se, but rather that the YouTube demonstration of a high powered hand held laser (and I think there´s really not much debate that it´s considered high powered) near an aluminum ladder and without goggles in the context of ¨Clowning around¨was irresponsible, and sends the wrong signal. I feel even stronger now that I know that the person who actually was in the video and who made the video was someone who actually knows something about lasers.

It would be like me putting a video of me aiming a laser at an airplane and saying...¨Clowning around with lasers and airplanes.¨ I don´t think anyone would go for that, especially given the criticism people on this board have given to reports of some person in Australia aiming their pointers at planes. Then again I could be wrong?

We can certainly agree to disagree and you can choose not to address your side of it or as you put it ¨gratify¨me with a response. That is certainly your perogative. My intention, at least on this forum, wasn´t to flame you. Oh.. by the way, the other comment ( I notice you´ve taken mine down) on YouTube says, ¨Oh, and to be safe, you should wear goggles.¨ So apparently, I´m not the only one who has a concern. Have a nice day.


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Old 04-17-2007, 06:22 PM #10
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video?  You decide

I am sure Senkat is wise enough and knowledgeable enough to know what he is doing and would never put his daughter in any kind of danger. Would you call me irresponsible if I made a video on youtube of me throwing my 2 year old son up in the air and catching him claiming that I didn't have inflated safety mats on the floor in case I dropped him?
Everything in life that you do carries a risk, its how you assess the risk is what counts.

What really concerns me more is this post and another one on LC, blasting Timelord for other videos that have been around for sometime now. 2 different post threads, on 2 different forums, started by 2 different people on the same day, digging up videos that have been around in the public domain for some time now, to try to ridicule two moderators for a rival forum. I am kinda starting to sense a pattern here.

Over to you Sherlock..

Regards.

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Old 04-17-2007, 07:11 PM #11
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

I've just read the thread on the LC in honour of the timelord LOL!!! It's nice to know that the bullshit and misinformed people still don't get their facts right over there ;D thinking i was banned in 2007 about their competition.
I was banned by Steve for making a thread about dragon lasers in DECEMBER 5th 2006 so the loyal sheep over the STEVECOMMUNITY who think that flaming me and others on our forum is gonna win them brownie points with the dodgy china man are deluded again ;D ;D ;D I've never seen so many brown noses on a forum in my life!!!!!!
WOULD YOU BY A LASER FROM A MAN LIKE THIS??? [smiley=smiley_down.gif] [smiley=smiley_down.gif] [smiley=smiley_down.gif] [smiley=smiley_down.gif]
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:58 PM #12
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Well, if Timelord is breaking out his Steve pics again, it is time for me to speak up I suppose.

At no time was my daughter's eyes in any danger, nor were mine. *I look at lasers all day and all night - especially when I work from home, with no ill effects to my eyes. *Are they bright ? *Sure...but I suffer no ill effects from glancing at a bright dot for a few microseconds. *Reflections from what shows up in my glasses are not what hits my eyes - what you see there is the reflection of what I am looking at - no what is hitting my eyes. *The reflection off of an aluminum ladder is so inconsequential that I never even bothered worrying about it - it was most likely brighter on the video than it was with me standing in front of it. *My kids' eyes were closed the majority of the time, and it is about time somebody showed the world that lasers CAN be fun, and folks can have fun while "clowning" around. *No offense is intended towards any clowning professionals out there by making that statement. *Was I having fun ? *You betcha ! *If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't do it. *Was it safe ? *YES. *Sorry if anyone out there doesn't think it was safe - but it was. *Do I really need to defend myself, or my videos to anyone ? *Nope. *Laserglow thought so highly of my amature video that they featured it on the front page of their newsletter - as it shows truly what these lasers should be used for - FUN. *Yep - I had fun *;D *I do welcome anyone at any time to talk freely about anything as long as you could discuss it in a church, in front of your entire family, and Bill Cosby (If you do not care for BC, then insert another family-oriented figure of your choice in his place) I am okay with it being on here. *I am secure enough to handle it - really I am. *Happy lasering, everyone. *Oh, one last thing - did I do anything in the video that was illegal ? NO. *So shut your mouth about it. *Your stupid example of lasering airplanes cemented what I think about your ideas and opinions. *Yet I care to not post it on here, as I will take it up with you privately if I see fit - or you can bad mouth others on other forums later. *THAT is illegal. *Not having fun in a garage. Oh yeah, and have a nice day.
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:01 PM #13
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video?  You decide

Guys come on now, I dont like jumping into the middle of things like this, but i can see where geolaserest is coming from. Senkat is a very responsible and experienced laser hobbyist. From what i have gotten from Geolaserest, all he is trying to say is that people will see this video on youtube and not see how truly dangerous these lasers can be and maybe, just maybe, they would go and and purchase a laser and try to have fun with it WITHOUT taking proper precautions. I for one will admit i didnt know the true danger of these when i first ordered my 75mw Viper, heck i didnt even know about IR or that lasers come filtered and unfiltered.

All being said, In the Video Senkat does take the proper precautions, but some might see that and think its no big deal (Shielding eyes etc). I personally didnt see anything wrong with what he was doing, but thats because i have a little experience in the matter. People with no experience cant see how crucial it is to use proper safety precautions.

I dont think that geolaserest was trying to "Flame" anyone, he was just concerned that someone would get the wrong idea from the video. Could he have used the PM system? yes! Did he, no. I think we just need to drop it and call it a draw.

Have a good one everyone!


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Old 04-17-2007, 11:27 PM #14
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

Quote:
Originally Posted by N00B
Guys come on now, I dont like jumping into the middle of things like this, but i can see where geolaserest is coming from. Senkat is a very responsible and experienced laser hobbyist. From what i have gotten from Geolaserest, all he is trying to say is that people will see this video on youtube and not see how truly dangerous these lasers can be and maybe, just maybe, they would go and and purchase a laser and try to have fun with it WITHOUT taking proper precautions. I for one will admit i didnt know the true danger of these when i first ordered my 75mw Viper, heck i didnt even know about IR or that lasers come filtered and unfiltered.

All being said, In the Video Senkat does take the proper precautions, but some might see that and think its no big deal (Shielding eyes etc). I personally didnt see anything wrong with what he was doing, but thats because i have a little experience in the matter. People with no experience cant see how crucial it is to use proper safety precautions.

I dont think that geolaserest was trying to "Flame" anyone, he was just concerned that someone would get the wrong idea from the video. Could he have used the PM system? yes! Did he, no. I think we just need to drop it and call it a draw.

Have a good one everyone! *


~Nick

true, but anyone who is going to spend 800 dollars on a 175mw aries is most likely going to do a little research on their new "toy". Not just go out and buy with a spare 800 dollars of pocket change and start screwing around.
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:06 AM #15
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

It´s nice to see a real discussion and some different viewpoints. As far as the conspiracy theories go, you can dispell those outright. I have no connection to LC or the guys over at Wicked Lasers per se. Yes, I bought one of their 35mw´s and I´m okay with the laser. Nothing wrong with it. I mainly like it because it doesn´t have a functionless pocket clip on it. I also bought an Atlas Nova ¨astronomy grade¨ that I´m quite happy with due to its power. I seem to have gotten lucky with a good one. Relatively speaking, I´d even say the Wicked was a bit pricey for what I got. But whatever, I lived with it. I´ve also posted, I think maybe on this forum somewhere, that I was interested in a LaserGlow Aries. Maybe I´ll get one of those someday. But I expect I would get goggles of some sort with it.

Senkat replied and I appreciate that. While he has stressed that neither he nor his daughter were in any danger whatsoever, that´s not the point I´m necessarily trying to make here. The only person to get it right was NOOB. The issue isn´t necessarily about Senkat himself, although I´ll grant you when I first saw the video I was concerned about both the man and the daughter, it´s about the message the video sends to others not as experienced in the hobby. Noob hit it on the head, really.

Now, in my own defense (can you tell I like to debate?), whether or not the laser is a 175mw (although Senkat´s I understand actually puts out more like 189mw) and costs $800, as Lazerlover pointed out, is immaterial. Let´s face it, eye damage can be done with a laser costing much less. Goggles are recommended (as mentioned on this very forum) for lasers at 55mw and up, more or less, when used in relatively close quarters and not being simply pointed at the sky. That´s Laser Safety 101 right? So I´m entirely within reason, surely, to point out a video which appears to violate those norms to get opinions. Censorship need not be the response.

Now, what I´ve said here is even irrespective of the IR issue that is so often talked about which I´ve not even addressed. Now, I can kind of predict the response on this one: ¨But, the Aries HAS an IR filter you jerky stupid moron!¨ Fine, but again, the average Joe out there might go out and buy a 100mw Ebayser thinking he can do all those tricks, clowning around etc, and feel safe about it without a clue as to the real dangers. Point made.

Yes, now that I know it was Senkat´s daughter, I expect the experiment was much safer than it would be in the hands of a newbie. I´m simply questioning the judgement to post it on Youtube without some sort of preface as to safety suggestions because, honestly, I would have expected something like that from someone with Senkat´s expertise. I like Senkat a lot. Looking back on some posts I´ve made on here when I was seeking advice, he was extremely helpful and he clearly has a passion for the hobby. I think he just didn´t consider how the video might be processed in the minds of people with less experience. I think he took his experience for granted perhaps. Anyone can make that mistake. He may not consider this a mistake in judgement, but I do. Not the judgement to do the experiment itself necessarily mind you (although I disagree with using a child as a prop) but to post to YouTube without the proper safety warning issues, ESPECIALLY given that a child is in the picture. It gives the impression that kids can be involved in laser games...and I think it sends a very mixed signal. But it appears some of us have a difference of opinion on this issue. However, I will defend my position in this particular case vigorously as you can see.

I remember recently my wife was checking out my laser for the first time...and it´s only a 35mw, but that too can be dangerous. I jumped on her (figuratively speaking) because she was pointing it towards a window to the outside and I could sense there could be a reflection off the window causing a direct hit to her eyes AND the possibly that it the beam could hit an unsuspecting passerby outside. I wanted to educate her on it and stress to her that it´s not a toy, to be careful with it, not to point it near anyone, etc. This is how people without a clue as to the power of a laser often behaves. We´ve all seen or heard about it. Their first instinct is to point it at something shiny to see the pretty lights bounce all over the place, or at people to scare them, or at planes to see if the beam hits it.

Yes, maybe I jumped on Senkat the same way, but it was all in the name of safety and not to flame him. I wanted to give urgent attention to a matter that I thought needed it. I think we´d all rather err on the side of safety and inform the public appropriately, otherwise I venture to say, we´ll be reading about cases of laser accidents with the proliferation of these powerful instruments (or ¨toys¨depending on who´s using it) in recent years.

Lastly, the issue isn´t one of legality, it´s one of safety and the message of the video. Pointing lasers at planes may be illegal (and I´ve never done it), but there´s a heck of a lot less danger in doing that, depending on the distance of the plane, angle of the beam, speed of the plane, etc. of course, than using a high powered handheld at close quarters without goggles. It´s been discussed many times, on several forums. Taking down a plane with handheld, as we all have read, is FARRRR less likely than injuring ourselves or others with a high powered handheld at relatively close range without goggles. So if anyone´s going to take the argument in a direction about pointing lasers at planes because of safety issues, and not legal ones, they ought to speak up as Noob has so bravely done.

On a conciliatory note, I did PM Senkat since this apparent broughhahah started and I apologized to him if I came across too strongly or if I offended him in any way. I did not think to PM him initially because I rarely PM anyone on any forum. I just don´t get that personal normally. And secondly I mainly wanted to get the reactions of others to the video, not to mention that I wasn´t sure in the first place if the Senkat producer of the video was the same Senkat on this forum. Again, I think I addressed this earlier in a previous post. Hopefully I´ve made my point and the ruffled feathers will begin to subside. From Senkat´s response it appears he´s accepted my apologies.

If anyone, including Senkat, still cares to comment, we can certainly talk about it further and, hopefully, in a constructive, friendly, and adult way. Thanks for reading.







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Old 04-18-2007, 11:21 AM #16
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Default Re: Irresponsible Video? *You decide

I think we can say that we've covered the issues here. If you guys want to take it up in a PM that would be great.

I am guessing that everyone has made up his/her mind about this issue and a million additional posts won't change much. This is an ethics type question, hence, a thousand different perspectives and each one right and wrong for its own reasons.
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