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Old 07-26-2016, 08:18 PM #1553
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

As well as being a member of the NRA and GOA I now am joining Citizens United as our 1st Amendment is needed to protect our 2nd and our entire Bill of Rights.

I never thought so many citizens would be willing to buy the pre packaged hype of class warfare and race bating, ignorance and misinformation threatens the country we have known like never before, all our freedoms are at stake.

Right now the NRA-PVF needs our support to stop Schumer and win the 25 of 34 Senate seats needed to preserve our firewall against the tyrannical attacks of those who wish to trample our Rights.

If you enjoy firearms and the freedom to speak your mind then please get involved yesterday, or right now, time is short and the stakes are high.


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Old 08-07-2016, 01:38 AM #1554
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

http://youtu.be/bp5gAY6aIjA

Good on her.
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Old 08-07-2016, 02:43 AM #1555
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

These are self defense rights we can only dream off in europe. If I was an american voter i'd want to keep them, and as a european i want to obtain then.. sadly no party in the elections here even entertains that idea.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:26 PM #1556
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Same here in the UK. I am of the American view that if someone enters my house then they deserve all they get.
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Old 08-07-2016, 03:56 PM #1557
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I love watching this guy make slingshots, you would not want to take a 10mm steel ball from one of the stronger ones, they penetrate into ballistic gel calibrated as a human analogue.

Anyway we think Germans can't own guns....I can see that's wrong, they can own 8 per license and hold multiple licenses, the categories are for Hunting, sport shooting, and collecting.....self defense is not a reason to own and likely frown upon, but like I said, this guy builds slingshots that could kill you or make you turn around and run away bleeding.

Everyone wants to be able to protect their home, there are some awful people in this world who just can't be reasoned with, some that enjoy making others suffer.....I won't go into the gory details of things I have read.

The vast majority of gun owners are good people who never want to have to shoot anyone, but they do deserve to feel safe in their home, we all do.

Anyway I will skip the sermon, enjoy the video. You may like some of his other videos too, as for German firearms laws I would not agree with that level of restriction in America EVER, this is just posted as a point of interest.

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Old 08-08-2016, 01:37 AM #1558
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Germany is actually one of the more permitting european countries when it comes gun ownership. It's not that hard to get a license to own a rifle for hunting and such.

Those slingshots can certainly be deadly, but are not overly practical for self defense.

Dutch gun law bans firearms but allows guns that work with compressed air and such. Owning a little .22 that works with gunpowder would be illegal, but building a honking big air cannon that shoots bowling balls at mach 2 would legally be fine. Operating one would be another matter, but if you had enough private land and no airspace restrictions you could.

Legislation here is completely mad. For self defense you can use a weapon of opportunity (such as a kitchen knife or metal pipe just lying around) but not one you planned to use as a weapon. This obviously leads to problems in proving things, you could have a 6D maglite besides your bed in case of a power failure, but it would also be quite convenient for bashing some intruders skull in.

Violent response also has to be proportional, so you cannot legally club an intruder with that maglight, unless the had something like a bat, knive or gun.

Oddly this can also work in your favour: if you shoot an armed intruder with an illegal gun you'll can get away with that as self defense, but will still be charged with illegally owning a gun. In such a scenario the sentence for owning the gun is usualy provisional. I think there should be no prosecution in such cases, if you shoot an armed intruder in your own house you had a bloody good reason for having the weapon.
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:34 PM #1559
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Wayne makes a fair point.


Interesting video. David Lory VanDerBeek is running for Nevada Governor 2018
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Old 08-08-2016, 07:26 PM #1560
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Police who would carry out gun confiscation against law abiding citizens are enforcers of tyranny. We all know what the penalty for tyranny is.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:49 AM #1561
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

That would be an interesting practical point: Would police offers even be willing to out and confiscate weapons people legally obtained before a change in legislation?

Disarming one person is not that hard, but if the rest of the street runs out with guns blazing it'd probably be a good idea to leave with empty hands at that point, or just not even to attempt it at all.

The only further thing the state can do is send the army to protect the police, but turning the army on your own citiziens is problematic at least. The army might actually refuse to engage in an operation that would result in massive civil casualty for no apparent benefit.

If pushed far enough you could have a US coup on your hands. I'm not sure how such things work in the US, but usually once the army no longer supports the ones in power things quickly turn bad. And the army is there to protect the people first, so i reckon they have a good reason to disregard orders that harm the people.
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Old 08-10-2016, 02:07 AM #1562
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
As well as being a member of the NRA and GOA I now am joining Citizens United as our 1st Amendment is needed to protect our 2nd and our entire Bill of Rights.

I never thought so many citizens would be willing to buy the pre packaged hype of class warfare and race bating, ignorance and misinformation threatens the country we have known like never before, all our freedoms are at stake.

Right now the NRA-PVF needs our support to stop Schumer and win the 25 of 34 Senate seats needed to preserve our firewall against the tyrannical attacks of those who wish to trample our Rights.

If you enjoy firearms and the freedom to speak your mind then please get involved yesterday, or right now, time is short and the stakes are high.
I like https://www.nationalgunrights.org/

They send me e-mails when gun bills are being voted on. If your the type to call in your opinion to your representative it is a good org to add to the list.
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Old 08-10-2016, 02:30 AM #1563
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benm View Post
That would be an interesting practical point: Would police offers even be willing to out and confiscate weapons people legally obtained before a change in legislation?
IMHO not likely, even if ordered to, most of these cops considered having to carry a gun as part of the job. This more or less eliminates anti gun people from filling this position, there are at least enough pro gun people that txt messages and phone calls go out to particular civilians. This is one of those "III %" things where individual cop/soldier/government agent says "I don't agree with whats happening but I'm better off acting as a quiet informer than all out refusing orders."
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Disarming one person is not that hard, but if the rest of the street runs out with guns blazing it'd probably be a good idea to leave with empty hands at that point, or just not even to attempt it at all.
In Montana there are an estimated 32 firearms per person
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The only further thing the state can do is send the army to protect the police, but turning the army on your own citiziens is problematic at least. The army might actually refuse to engage in an operation that would result in massive civil casualty for no apparent benefit.
The Military is even worse than Cops at enforcing questionable orders. You wouldn't have individuals refusing orders, you would have entire units refusing orders and trying to decide if they should actively engage other units that are willing to follow those orders. The more combat oriented a military unit the more likely they will be to go against unlawful orders of this type.

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If pushed far enough you could have a US coup on your hands. I'm not sure how such things work in the US, but usually once the army no longer supports the ones in power things quickly turn bad. And the army is there to protect the people first, so i reckon they have a good reason to disregard orders that harm the people.
You wouldn't have a Coup in the US, you would have a multifaction civil war. The government along with any cohesive military ability would evaporate overnight.

Basically the time they start taking guns to the time it takes to prove it is actually happening is all the time the government will have.

The military and police would attempt to calm the population but we already see what some groups of people are willing to do if they don't think the police can stop them.

The entire mess will simply be some very stupid people thinking that because there is no government they can do what they want, take, loot, burn what they want.

It all stops when good guys realize they can shoot bad guys with impunity.
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Old 08-10-2016, 04:28 PM #1564
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Like it or not most people obey orders from authority figures. That is not a hypothetical, it's a fact based on many behavioral tests. Most people, when told to shock a person with electricity, did so, even when seeing the person they were shocking in obvious pain.

Now extend that to cops, and military personnel, who are, let's not forget people, but are from rigid systems where they are trained to follow orders for many years at a time without question.

Consider the intense blue line, blue wall, code of silence that has been built up by cop cultures.

Consider that small military units will not be given a lot of information, just clear orders to secure location x, remove any weapons, deal with resistance if encountered. Leave detainees to civilian authorities.

Nor will those military units be deployed to the same areas they are from.

The time that the government could have for confiscation is also not so very limited because the mass media is largely controlled, and the internet can be shut down. That would only really leave independent radio operators, who are relatively few, and word of mouth to spread information.

Don't put faith in cops and military not following bad orders. Both have a long history of doing exactly that.
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:20 PM #1565
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

On a bit of a different note, how do you guys feel about the polarization of gun types in society? I feel like most of the people that complain about weapons have no idea what assault rifles are or the things that make guns more dangerous.

I personally don't care much for ARs myself, but I can respect people that do. I do, however like synthetic stocks on my rifles. People have seen my .30-06, 12 gauge, and my .22 with the black synthetic stocks and accused me of carrying around ARs "only good for killing people".

The only semi-auto I own is the .22, most of my rifles are long, and the only full grip stock I own is on the 12 gauge.

I use my guns to hunt and manage pests. The 12 gauge is for big animals that occasionally get uncomfortably close to my home. My .22 is mostly for target practice. I have less than lethal rounds for the 12 gauge on the off chance I do need to discourage a home invader. People still criticize my ownership of weapons as if they were weapons of war.

I understand that many people encounter much more vocal gun owners that threaten to shoot anybody that crosses them in ways they don't like, but they are the minority. I don't appreciate being lumped in with them at all, and I don't appreciate the claims that any gun is "only good for killing people." Plus, people really need to reevalute their criticisms of weapons if a synthetic stock is all it takes to be an assault rifle.
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Old 08-10-2016, 06:20 PM #1566
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Connecticut and New York have seen mass civil disobedience against unconstitutional orders to register rifles with certain cosmetic features, Colorado held a recall election and threw the lawmakers out.

These are family people who are technically overnight felons for refusing to register cosmetically challenged rifles, not surrender all guns, simply refusing to play the slow attrition game because they know the end goal.

Mass confiscation will not work, even if it is accomplished in certain areas there will be a backlash after the fact just like after hurricane Katrina where trusting citizens with their guard down were accosted by armored national guard forces, the whole country is watching and the American Citizen is standing up.

Now if we get Hillary and a new scotus reinterprets our Rights this will not stop any problems but it likely will create new ones.

At a time when we face Extremist attacks and people can not rely on the police to arrive in time to save them from home invasions, I don't see citizens falling for more restrictive unconstitutional laws that don't address the problem.

The vast majority of Gun owners never kill anyone except in the service of their country while enlisted in the military.

But they don't fight overseas just to come home and fall prey to an enabled criminal element, the 2A will not go down easy or quickly, even if every gun in America could be destroyed overnight, 10 million empty handed citizens would be virtually unstoppable is restoring our rights and holding accountable those treasonous traitors who violated their trust with the peoples own security forces, not that a nationwide confiscation could ever be accomplished in the first place.

I expect another Clinton crime bill if she is elected and more slowly implemented controls, just enough that the average citizen who is tired from working overtime to pay for health insurance that is expected to double in cost next year won't get up and resist it, it will be a slow attrition of restrictive laws on top of others that will only empower the criminals who will have all the black market armament they want.

----edit-----

The Military coup in Turkey failed mostly because of unarmed masses of citizens and their police forces, it was the huge swell of citizens taking to the streets of Turkey who choked down the Military coup.

Now the Islamic hardliner is in control of what was a secular type democracy, now the top selling book in Turkey is Hitler's mien Kamp.

The point is the strength of a few million empty handed people who are motivated is an awesome force beyond all control other than wholesale slaughter, and even that would present a serious challenge.

No the 2A will have to continue to be dismantled slowly and with much resistance, the cure will be much more destructive than the illness in my opinion.
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Old 08-11-2016, 01:35 AM #1567
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by AaronT View Post
The Military is even worse than Cops at enforcing questionable orders. You wouldn't have individuals refusing orders, you would have entire units refusing orders and trying to decide if they should actively engage other units that are willing to follow those orders. The more combat oriented a military unit the more likely they will be to go against unlawful orders of this type.
I'm not sure if it would come to army batallions actually shooting eachother, though it's not completely impossible nor unprecedented.

Something that could happen is that a number of generals will not stand for such a violation of the constitution and refuse to order units under their command to come to the aid of police trying to execute it, even if directly ordered by the president.

The military is an interesting layer in such situations, especially in modern times. Military of any rank can consider how reasonable an order is, and question executing it if in serious doubt of legality.

The aftermath of WW2 has proven that 'just following orders' is not a ticket to be absolved of any and all blame for your actions and their outcome.
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Old 08-11-2016, 04:23 AM #1568
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Like it or not most people obey orders from authority figures. That is not a hypothetical, it's a fact based on many behavioral tests. Most people, when told to shock a person with electricity, did so, even when seeing the person they were shocking in obvious pain.

Now extend that to cops, and military personnel, who are, let's not forget people, but are from rigid systems where they are trained to follow orders for many years at a time without question.

Consider the intense blue line, blue wall, code of silence that has been built up by cop cultures.

Consider that small military units will not be given a lot of information, just clear orders to secure location x, remove any weapons, deal with resistance if encountered. Leave detainees to civilian authorities.

Nor will those military units be deployed to the same areas they are from.

The time that the government could have for confiscation is also not so very limited because the mass media is largely controlled, and the internet can be shut down. That would only really leave independent radio operators, who are relatively few, and word of mouth to spread information.

Don't put faith in cops and military not following bad orders. Both have a long history of doing exactly that.
I think if it comes down to protecting the constitution, most would disobey the orders. I sure as hell would not follow orders that came down from Shillary if she becomes president. There is only one order I'd follow from her. That would be taking her in dead or alive.
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