Old 01-18-2013, 07:25 PM #113
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I'm glad nobody could just go into a school with a .22 and shoot a bunch of kids.


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Old 01-18-2013, 09:42 PM #114
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Or you know, get some gasoline, and set things on fire. Oh wait
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:22 AM #115
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Personally I own an AK variant rifle and I'm really getting sick of all this fear mongering and the stereotypes by the media. I agree with a lot of Obama's points such as more background checks/closing the gunshow loophole and possibly limiting the amount of rounds magazines can hold. However I absolutely DON'T agree with bringing back the assault weapons ban. It's basically just emotionally driven feel-good legislation that does absolutely nothing in reality. How many of these assault weapons have even been used in crime? Aside from a few high profile mass killing recently I can't recall much. You don't even need a semi-auto sporting rifle to kill a bunch of people. The guy at Vtech killed 30+ with normal handguns. Also Assault weapons are rarely used in normal homicides either.

Basically about 50% of those who wanna ban 'assault weps' don't even understand what they're banning. They see 'scary looking black guns' with pistol grips and think that they're dealing with full auto military machine guns or something. In reality they're functionally no different than any old semi-auto hunting rifle or sporting rifle. How do features like pistol grips and folding stocks make a rifle any more dangerous?

This is a classic case of trying to pass bad legislation poorly for the sake of 'taking action' and making it look like they're doing something. Thank god the assault weapons ban won't make it through congress. 99.99% of us responsible tactical rifle owners shouldn't suffer just because of several nutcases who went postal. It's just like how they always wanna ban high powered lasers cause of a few degenerates who blind pilots with them.

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Old 01-19-2013, 05:22 AM #116
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

These "assault weapons" are definitely a red herring, and even then, the laws against them are just band-aids for exceptional gun-related incidents. These incidents aren't drug cartels gunning down rivals with assault rifles, terrorists taking hostages in theaters, bank heists, mob hits, etc. No, these incidents are generally connected to people with mental health problems. These are the kind of incidents that are rare but happen everywhere, even in places like Europe despite stronger anti-gun laws. Where are the laws and programs addressing mental health problems in the US?

The real problems get ignored because they're too difficult to address. Even if the problems could be solved by banning a particular type of weapon (and they can't), no legislator is going to touch the most frequently used gun in gun-related crime: handguns. No, not even when hand guns are just as dangerous, if not more, than "assault weapons" in the environments they're used. I wouldn't be surprised if the shooters in these recent shootings could've killed more people with handguns than aiming down the sights of their "assault weapon."
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Old 01-23-2013, 03:19 PM #117
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger View Post
The real problems get ignored because they're too difficult to address.
Problem: dude killed bunch of school children.

Solution: outlaw guns?

Seems like a better, more logical solution would be to ban shooting children... Even then, you still don't accomplish anything by putting some words on paper, if the crazy folks aren't the types to heed some words.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:17 PM #118
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by BShanahan14rulz View Post
Seems like a better, more logical solution would be to ban shooting children... Even then, you still don't accomplish anything by putting some words on paper, if the crazy folks aren't the types to heed some words.
Better yet, ban those who shouldn't have kids from having kids!!!

Make them get a general health check.
Make them sit down with an accountant to determine whether they are financially stable enough to afford to have kids.
Make it a requirement for them to be in a stable relationship for at least 2 years prior to having kids.
Make them undergo 5-10 sessions with a psychiatrist, or psychologist to determine that they are mentally healthy enough to support kids, and are ready for the commitment.
Make them have go through at least 100 hours on child psychology, and parenting techniques to prepare them FOR having a kid.
Enforce a year long waiting period from when people decide to have a child to when they are allowed to attempt to conceive said child.

Anyone who is willing to commit to giving up their life as they know it, for at least 18 years, should be more than willing to go through the above no?

Why is having a kid a right, and not a privilege?

Is there anything in the constitution, in law, that grants the right to have kids? (Serious question, I don't know, maybe there is?)

Ultimately kids turn into people, and people are a hell of a lot more dangerous than any guns....

But no, instead we're getting laws that will ban scary looking guns, limit magazine capacity, and oh yeah, bulletproof white boards anyone? http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1245783

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Old 01-23-2013, 10:25 PM #119
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Is there anything in the constitution, in law, that grants the right to have kids? (Serious question, I don't know, maybe there is?)
Check with your local deity (God, Allah, etc) on this one. I don't think it's something any goverment wants to touch.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:27 PM #120
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Check with your local deity (God, Allah, etc) on this one. I don't think it's something any goverment wants to touch.
I'm an atheist. Also we're talking about laws... this would be kind of a crucial church and state separation issue.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:08 AM #121
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Better yet, ban those who shouldn't have kids from having kids!!!

Make them get a general health check.
Make them sit down with an accountant to determine whether they are financially stable enough to afford to have kids.
Make it a requirement for them to be in a stable relationship for at least 2 years prior to having kids.
Make them undergo 5-10 sessions with a psychiatrist, or psychologist to determine that they are mentally healthy enough to support kids, and are ready for the commitment.
Make them have go through at least 100 hours on child psychology, and parenting techniques to prepare them FOR having a kid.
Enforce a year long waiting period from when people decide to have a child to when they are allowed to attempt to conceive said child.

Anyone who is willing to commit to giving up their life as they know it, for at least 18 years, should be more than willing to go through the above no?

Why is having a kid a right, and not a privilege?

Is there anything in the constitution, in law, that grants the right to have kids? (Serious question, I don't know, maybe there is?)


Ultimately kids turn into people, and people are a hell of a lot more dangerous than any guns....

But no, instead we're getting laws that will ban scary looking guns, limit magazine capacity, and oh yeah, bulletproof white boards anyone? Bulletproof white boards can serve as shields during school shooting* - NY Daily News

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Old 01-24-2013, 01:12 AM #122
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I'm hoping this was all hyperbole...

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
Better yet, ban those who shouldn't have kids from having kids!!!
And how is this going to be done? Sterilization? Monitoring? Forced birth control?

Though I risk invoking Godwin's Law, that's falling down the same slippery slope of state-enforced eugenics that led to forced sterilization and even death camps. After all, why stop at preventing more children, when the adult is determined to not even be able to take responsibility for themselves? Eugenics was quite popular in the early 20th century. Fortunately, we grew out of that as a policy, even if most people still support eugenics to some extent.

Quote:
Make them sit down with an accountant to determine whether they are financially stable enough to afford to have kids.
Financial stability is a fleeting thing, and is hard to evaluate. We see many families in America that, on the surface, have the appearance of being very financial stable, but it's all founded in debt. Some even have jobs, etc. but no guarantee that if the economy falters, the job will still exist. Also, does this mean that the poor are disallowed from having children?

What more, is it better to be "financial stable" by some sort of standard in terms of having large incomes at the expense of home life? For example, both parents working all the time, the kids left alone and up to their own devices. I'm not sure if that's a good criterion.

Quote:
Make it a requirement for them to be in a stable relationship for at least 2 years prior to having kids.
That criterion is also pretty arbitrary. Families break up all the time.

Quote:
Make them undergo 5-10 sessions with a psychiatrist, or psychologist to determine that they are mentally healthy enough to support kids, and are ready for the commitment.
Make them have go through at least 100 hours on child psychology, and parenting techniques to prepare them FOR having a kid.
I'm not convinced the psychologists know better either. This sounds like some ruse to charge people out the nose for some speculative evaluations.

Quote:
Enforce a year long waiting period from when people decide to have a child to when they are allowed to attempt to conceive said child.

Anyone who is willing to commit to giving up their life as they know it, for at least 18 years, should be more than willing to go through the above no?
That's as easy to promise as retirement benefits. What good does a promise now do?

Quote:
Why is having a kid a right, and not a privilege?
When you're willing to give up your rights for a little security.

Quote:
Is there anything in the constitution, in law, that grants the right to have kids? (Serious question, I don't know, maybe there is?)
That depends on how you view the constitution and law. Are you allowed only the rights conferred by law, or are the laws merely there to define what you cannot do? I'm thinking the latter.

I like to think that our arms are guarantors against those who would implement such laws for the excuse of security. If lawmakers think they're going to dictate my reproductive rights to that extent they better be prepared for a fight.

Quote:
Ultimately kids turn into people, and people are a hell of a lot more dangerous than any guns....
A kid does not grow up alone on an island. Societal forces are also at play. If you look at the Columbine school massacre, the two killers grew up with nearly all the qualifications you outlined above, and yet when exposed to the world look at what happened to them. They were bullied, outcast, and ultimately took matters into their own hands to change the world for themselves.

What I'm afraid of with all this kind of reactionary rhetoric for all issues is that the rights we enjoy will be taken away. We've seen this in the wake of the 9/11 attack, as our society is less free for the sake of perceived security.

Look at places like China, with birth-control laws, laws to keep people from emigrating, gun-control laws, free-speech laws. They're relatively secure and safe, but at what cost?
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:08 AM #123
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Look at places like China, with birth-control laws, laws to keep people from emigrating, gun-control laws, free-speech laws. They're relatively secure and safe, but at what cost?
Yes at what cost? No access to Facebook!

*gasp

All satire aside. I should like to point out to IE that many of my good friends came from far than less ideal family situations and turned out just fine.

If you want to claim that an entity such as a government ought to have a place in the dictation of the evolutionary spread of genes - then we're right where Darwin's cousin was - stuck with euthanasia as an attractive system.

If I recall, there was another entity that was an atheistic euthanasia promoter back in the mid 1930s till the mid 1940s..

..expanding its reach where it did not belong.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:30 AM #124
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Just saw this thread.

Being from WV I tend to think that all this gun control crap starts with the simple minded city people who have never shot a gun, been hunting, or been past the suburbs. More people get killed by random things like coconut on the head, fist fights, falling, eating something poisonous, etc. than assault rifles. The people promoting these bans obviously don't understand that over 30,000 people die in car accidents per year (and this includes many children too) but assault rifles kill less than 200. LETS BAN CARS. I mean they aren't even mentioned in the constitution so there's nothing in the way. This whole issue is being blown up because some kids died. That's really sad but lots more kids die every year for reasons not related to assault rifles.

The real reason for mass shooting is psychological. I dont care what anybody says, there is only one reason that someone will mass murder. Mental insanity. You will not become a crazy kid killer by playing grand theft auto or watching action movies. Thats just retarted. If these people had been taken to a mental institution like they should have been the shootings wouldnt have happened. The parents must have know. I highly doubt the shootings were the first time they had acted out from their mental disease.

Also I think arming teachers is absolutely the worst idea I have ever heard. Not to be ***ist but I wouldn't trust a single female teacher with a gun. Especially not in elementary schools! "How should we keep the kids safe" "We should fill the schools with guns and let any senile lady with an education degree have them." We have full time cops at some schools here, and that is the only way there needs to be guns in school.

Anyways, even if there are bans there WILL be ARs in west virginia. Everyone has guns here (especially in my area) and they aren't going away overnight. We had them through the old ban and will still have them though the new one. Personally I have 3 guns that would be affected, and I see no reason why they should be banned.

End rant. Would have been longer but im on my phone!
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:54 PM #125
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Hmm, my goal was to prod the discussion along a bit, it seems instead I kicked a hornets nest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger View Post
I'm hoping this was all hyperbole...
For the most part (~80%) it was. I thought the triple exclamation points were kind of an indicator of that.

Still, I do feel at least to some extent those points are valid, in that people who choose to have kids should be prepared for that responsibility, and to some degree objectively qualified to support kids.

I'm going to address your points, both from a personal viewpoint, and an extreme one, playing devil's advocate.

Quote:
And how is this going to be done? Sterilization? Monitoring? Forced birth control?
Personally I believe that monitoring, and only monitoring, and restrictions on freedom, combined with financial penalties for the progenitors would be acceptable. This we already have to a degree, in the form of legal parental obligations, and child support policies. IMO what we have is not enough though.

Playing the devil's advocate though, in some cases, preventative birth control, and sterilization, should be used as well. Why should society at large, you, me, and everyone else, have to pickup the slack when some prick doesn't like the feel of a condom, and fathers a child as a result he has no intention of supporting?

Quote:
Though I risk invoking Godwin's Law, that's falling down the same slippery slope of state-enforced eugenics that led to forced sterilization and even death camps. Eugenics was quite popular in the early 20th century. Fortunately, we grew out of that as a policy, even if most people still support eugenics to some extent.
I was wondering how long that would take

Quote:
After all, why stop at preventing more children, when the adult is determined to not even be able to take responsibility for themselves?
Where personal responsibility is concerned, an adult has the freedom of choice that a child does not. An adult CAN take care of him/her self. A child cannot. IMO we as a society do have an absolute obligation to take care of children, regardless of how they come into the world.

That a child starves to death, or is euthanized, is abhorrent to me, and unacceptable.

If an adult does not want to be responsible for him/her self, that is their choice. At the same time it is the choice of all others whether to take responsibility for said adult or not.

Playing devil's advocate though... eugenics is logical, rational, and enforced population control is certainly something that will be a part of the future to a greater degree than it is now, or has been in the past. If small steps are taken now, steps that do not require drastic, draconian, and brutal policies, greater steps will not be needed in the future.

Quote:
Financial stability is a fleeting thing, and is hard to evaluate. We see many families in America that, on the surface, have the appearance of being very financial stable, but it's all founded in debt. Some even have jobs, etc. but no guarantee that if the economy falters, the job will still exist. Also, does this mean that the poor are disallowed from having children?
This is true, however, in general it is possible to evaluate how fiscally responsible a person is, or isn't. This is already being done.

So why is it, that someone who cannot, (based on their current net worth, income, and past fiscal history) get a small loan, should be allowed to have a child, they cannot reasonably support?

Devil's advovate - Yes it would absolutely mean poor people would not be able to have children. These are the same people that have kids NOW and can't support them. That a person can bring a child to this world, a child that would be forced to live in abject poverty, should be considered criminal, and punished as such.

Quote:
What more, is it better to be "financial stable" by some sort of standard in terms of having large incomes at the expense of home life? For example, both parents working all the time, the kids left alone and up to their own devices. I'm not sure if that's a good criterion.
There is no simple answer to this question unfortunately. I do believe though that some minimum requirements should be met. Meaning a 16 year old high school dropout with no prospects of a career, and living at home, should not be allowed to have a child.

Quote:
That criterion is also pretty arbitrary. Families break up all the time.
That families break up is true. Unfortunately in some cases couples even have kids with the sole purpose of trying to sustain a relationship that isn't working.

Still, that a couple stays together for a longer period of time, and rationally chooses to have a child, is the better scenario versus one where a couple gets married because they end up with a child, without being prepared for one.

You know what tends to be one of the primary underlying causes for separation? Finances. Kind of goes back to the previous point.

Quote:
I'm not convinced the psychologists know better either. This sounds like some ruse to charge people out the nose for some speculative evaluations.
If you're questioning psychology/psychiatry, are you not questioning the whole premise of mental health? Also you're kind of questioning the value of education altogether.

Quote:
That's as easy to promise as retirement benefits. What good does a promise now do?
Not really not really sure what you meant here.

Quote:
When you're willing to give up your rights for a little security.
Department of homeland security. TSA. Patriot Act. Apparently as a society we're quite willing to give up rights in exchange for security. Nor is the right to have a child expressly stated. The right to bear arms, is expressly stated.

Quote:
That depends on how you view the constitution and law. Are you allowed only the rights conferred by law, or are the laws merely there to define what you cannot do? I'm thinking the latter.
It would be nice if it were the latter, unfortunately at this point the opposite is actually true.

Quote:
I like to think that our arms are guarantors against those who would implement such laws for the excuse of security. If lawmakers think they're going to dictate my reproductive rights to that extent they better be prepared for a fight.
And how do you intend to fight, when you're not even allowed to carry a simple knife in many places, let alone a gun?

Quote:
A kid does not grow up alone on an island. Societal forces are also at play. If you look at the Columbine school massacre, the two killers grew up with nearly all the qualifications you outlined above, and yet when exposed to the world look at what happened to them. They were bullied, outcast, and ultimately took matters into their own hands to change the world for themselves.
That the bullying, and that they were outcast, were not addressed, that they were not well socialized, is definitely a problem. Still, IMO, the role parents play is crucial, and their failure to recognize that an issue existed, is far greater than the failure of society.

Quote:
What I'm afraid of with all this kind of reactionary rhetoric for all issues is that the rights we enjoy will be taken away. We've seen this in the wake of the 9/11 attack, as our society is less free for the sake of perceived security.

Look at places like China, with birth-control laws, laws to keep people from emigrating, gun-control laws, free-speech laws. They're relatively secure and safe, but at what cost?
Rest assured, people in china, for the most part, do not feel anymore safe, or secure than we do.

We're in agreement 100% though, that we are headed toward the erosion of our rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
All satire aside. I should like to point out to IE that many of my good friends came from far than less ideal family situations and turned out just fine.

If you want to claim that an entity such as a government ought to have a place in the dictation of the evolutionary spread of genes - then we're right where Darwin's cousin was - stuck with euthanasia as an attractive system.
I'd like to point out, that while for the most part, people in general turn out fine, the likelyhood that they don't end up fine, is much greater, when they do come from a broken home.

I don't like for the government to be involved in anything, personally. The more I work with our beloved government, the more I come to believe that it does more harm than good.

To me, these "requirements" as I outline above, should be self imposed, and expected of people, rather than forced upon people.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:00 PM #126
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Ban All Sharp Objects | causes.com

I guess we are all little children and big brother is looking out for us...
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:09 PM #127
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by HitShane View Post
Ban All Sharp Objects | causes.com

I guess we are all little children and big brother is looking out for us...
But, but, first weapons were likely blunt... like uhm rocks, and sticks.... Why don't we also ban the blunt heavy objects?
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:23 PM #128
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I think this is a larger issue. Caffeine will be illegal soon...

14-year-old girl dies of heart attack after drinking two cans of high-caffeine Monster Energy drink on consecutive days - Americas - World - The Independent

You know what would be a good idea... Find a way to keep enough of a shooters (Murderer) brain alive, that we can make them live out the rest of their life in a hell like atmosphere with the pain recepters maxed out. Even if they try to kill themselfs after a mass shooting, they have a good chance of being kept alive in a terrable state to think about what they did wrong. I know I wouldnt wanna be kept this way... Might deter some of the violence... Plus then we can all keep our loved items what ever they may be and really be held accountable for all of our actions...
-Shane
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