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Old 12-17-2015, 06:55 PM #1153
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I agree planters, we need the gorilla. I would like to see him as the republican candidate with a running mate that will seal the deal.


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Old 12-17-2015, 08:25 PM #1154
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
I agree planters, we need the gorilla. I would like to see him as the republican candidate with a running mate that will seal the deal.
LOL

Great, a Gorilla and a Seal.


So, yes, we agree politicians pander to their bases...that is a normal political procedure.

The difference is that the republican base is mostly too far right to satisfy the middle, and the democrats are mostly close enough to the middle and not too far left.

Sauders might be too far left for example, Trump to the right.

Jeb is closer to the middle, and not an unlikely pick if the party wanted to win.

Some people LIKE Hillary. I don't, but, I do see her as the default Dem nom unless things change between now and when it counts.

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Old 12-17-2015, 09:09 PM #1155
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Yes but right now we have to deal with what we have, not what we want.
I like a lot of the candidates, but who ever ends up running against Hillary is who I will vote for, no candidate is more threatening to American freedom than Hillary in my opinion and no candidate is less trustworthy than Hillary.
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Old 12-18-2015, 01:20 PM #1156
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
Yes but right now we have to deal with what we have, not what we want.
I like a lot of the candidates, but who ever ends up running against Hillary is who I will vote for, no candidate is more threatening to American freedom than Hillary in my opinion and no candidate is less trustworthy than Hillary.


Well, right now, really, we don't have to do anything at all...no one can vote yet.

In reality, we are simply waiting for thr parties to decide who they will present to us.

THEN we can choose whoever is available.

Its hard to bet on a horse race when you don't know who the horses will be yet.

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Old 12-18-2015, 04:32 PM #1157
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Well, right now, really, we don't have to do anything at all...no one can vote yet.

In reality, we are simply waiting for thr parties to decide who they will present to us.

THEN we can choose whoever is available.

Its hard to bet on a horse race when you don't know who the horses will be yet.

True but we can at least influence who the parties will choose. The caucus or primary in each state will happen between Feb 1st and the end of June. If you feel strongly about a candidate then consider a donation to their campaign, and do it soon before it's too late.

The Iowa caucus Monday Feb 1st will be the first one, followed by New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, all in February.

The republican national convention:
Host City: Cleveland, Ohio
Location: Quicken Loans Arena
Dates: July 18-21, 2016

The democratic national convention:
Host City: Philadelphia
Location: Wells Fargo Center and the Pennsylvania Convention Center
Dates: Week of July 25th, 2016

So we will have to wait until then to know for sure.

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Old 12-18-2015, 08:05 PM #1158
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
True but we can at least influence who the parties will choose. The caucus or primary in each state will happen between Feb 1st and the end of June. If you feel strongly about a candidate then consider a donation to their campaign, and do it soon before it's too late.

The Iowa caucus Monday Feb 1st will be the first one, followed by New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, all in February.

The republican national convention:
Host City: Cleveland, Ohio
Location: Quicken Loans Arena
Dates: July 18-21, 2016

The democratic national convention:
Host City: Philadelphia
Location: Wells Fargo Center and the Pennsylvania Convention Center
Dates: Week of July 25th, 2016

So we will have to wait until then to know for sure.

Alan
So true...its December of 2015, now, and, sometime in the February to summer of 2016 or so period, this all might become actionably relevant...and after that, who ever is selected by the process can be evaluated further.
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Old 12-18-2015, 09:36 PM #1159
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
The difference is that the republican base is mostly too far right to satisfy the middle, and the democrats are mostly close enough to the middle and not too far left.
This is your opinion. I would even agree with you if the middle was close to European socialism.

Quote:
Yes but right now we have to deal with what we have, not what we want.

This is very true. And, it does matter because voting is the last thing we will do, especially when you remember that we don't even vote directly for our candidate. What we do now can influence what candidate survives to the general election, how much money they have and who the delegates support.
The RNC and the DNC have a lot of control over this process, but they are not completely immune to public input. What you say at work, on line at at local meetings has influence, depends on how hard you try.
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Old 12-18-2015, 10:28 PM #1160
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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This is your opinion. I would even agree with you if the middle was close to European socialism.




This is very true. And, it does matter because voting is the last thing we will do, especially when you remember that we don't even vote directly for our candidate. What we do now can influence what candidate survives to the general election, how much money they have and who the delegates support.
The RNC and the DNC have a lot of control over this process, but they are not completely immune to public input. What you say at work, on line at at local meetings has influence, depends on how hard you try.

Quite true.

As none of the candidates, from either party, seem like first choices for president...at least to those of us here at least so far...I wonder if there's someone out there that we would all agree would be better than those available so far?

For example, just as there are those who, for political gain, would try to wrest americans from their weapons, there are those who would similarly wrest our lasers from us...because SOME of "us" aimed them at aircraft for example.

Is there an LPF candidate?


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Old 12-18-2015, 11:09 PM #1161
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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The difference is that the republican base is mostly too far right to satisfy the middle, and the democrats are mostly close enough to the middle and not too far left.
This I'm going to have to disagree with. The true "middle" would be centrism, which is somewhere between conservatism and liberalism. None of the candidates seem to have swung to far into the extremes (monarchism, anarchism, fascism etc.)

Of course anyone with a left leaning bias is going to think that the right is being extreme, and anyone with a right leaning bias is going to think the left is being extreme. This is because they think their own views are more centristic. So if you actually lean towards the right, but you put yourself closer to the middle, you will see the right as closer to the middle, and the left as much farther.

I made an image to illustrate this, but LPF won't let me post pic right now.
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Old 12-19-2015, 02:20 AM #1162
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
None of the candidates seem to have swung to far into the extremes (monarchism, anarchism, fascism etc.)
I would take issue with you here. On that spectrum, I would put a couple candidates close to fascism. This is a too cozy relationship between huge business/ money interests and government. Jeb and Hillary lead the pack here.

Quote:
The true "middle" would be centrism, which is somewhere between conservatism and liberalism
I would define the real contest between state-ism and individualism. All the candidates more or less support government solutions. Where we have crept away from principals of self reliance and individual responsibility along with the rewards of individual achievement, that is where we have been diminished. That is the platform which a leader for these times should embrace.
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:47 PM #1163
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

When I say something like "too far to the left/right" I don't mean on an absolute scale, I mean too far, relative to the centrist position that the US has traditionally been strongest at.

IE: Not too far left OR right, for America's middle of the bell curve voters.

So, historically, when I say too far left or right, I don't mean Mao is running as a communist or Hitler is running as a fascist....I mean that people, relative to how america votes, historically, are MORE left, or MORE right, than what tends to be the sweet spot.

The Tea Party guys are too far right to win the fat part of the Bell Curve, and Sauders might be too far left as examples.


The Republican Party has, lately, swung too far to the right to win the national elections...because the local strength in nominations has been on the far right compared to its normal orientation...and if those right wing guys get nominated, they lose nationally.

Same for the Democrats if they go too far left...the fat part of the bell curve shies away from that too.

The party that is least scary to the fat part of the bell curve wins this one.

If Trump ends up as a the least scary for example, he could win. If Christy is viewed as the safer Trump, he could get the nod. If those who think the Earth is ~ 6,000 years old suddenly outnumber those who don't, Carson could get the nod, and so forth.

So, as mentioned correctly, earlier above, the votes are lumped as blocks for the candidates, so if a district wins, that electoral college's votes are tallied proportionally.

A guy who gets fewer total votes cast for him, but enough to win key districts, can still win an election.

Roughly 30% of Americans think the sun goes around the Earth, that the Noah's ark story happened as described, and that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. These people tend to live in rural areas and are geographically clumped across the country.

If all of THEM showed up at the polls, and voted as a block, the Republicans would win, as the religious right is a large part of their base.

When Obama made a comment about them clinging to their guns and their religion...well, he didn't do much to pander to that block of voters. He won anyway, twice.

I am into guns, its a part of my life I DO cling to. I can use both hands though, as the one hand that others are using to also cling to their bible is free.





PS - Never underestimate money and power.

You mention Jeb and Hillary, and, based on that alone, it would be normal if they were their respective party nominations.

Big Money paid to create a "controversy" over global climate change, a controversy only a significant problem in the US of course. They can manipulate the masses at will, and do, daily.


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Old 12-20-2015, 05:31 AM #1164
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I would generally agree with those arguments. It might depend on events that are yet to happen such as a big terrorist event, a provocation by Putin or China or an indictment that motivates the electorate.
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Old 12-20-2015, 08:21 PM #1165
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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I would generally agree with those arguments. It might depend on events that are yet to happen such as a big terrorist event, a provocation by Putin or China or an indictment that motivates the electorate.
As we (The US) has shown a willingness to go to war, and an unwillingness to keep fighting...we end up with a squishy "We support the troops but are against the war" sort of sentiment.

Other nations have noticed this pattern, from Vietnam onward at least...and, it would NOT surprise me to see some more brinkmanship.

China for example has been cleverly manipulating the market, even their own...with short term advantages and some long term costs...but, the overall impact is leverage in global politics and economics.

They are a military powerhouse with massive troop numbers and a nationalism that has not been seen since Nazi Germany perhaps.

They would KNOW that a pitched war between us, say over oil reserves and mineral rights in the arctic circle or ownership of offshore/outlying islands that would grant them sovereignty and therefore rights, etc...

It would not be OUR territory, but an ally's. We would therefore be forced to defend an ally's claim, or back down. NOT backing down

...would mean the US COMMITTING to a real war with real losses.


They might assume we'd back down, and leave the lion (Dragon?) with its kill.


Brinkmanship -

Its not even remotely inconceivable.

I'd even expect it as soon as they think they have their (Peking?) ducks in a row.



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Old 12-20-2015, 10:00 PM #1166
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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.....
Roughly 30% of Americans think the sun goes around the Earth, that the Noah's ark story happened as described, and that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. These people tend to live in rural areas and are geographically clumped across the country.
.....
No offense, but I don't think you can find any evidence for your "30% of Americans think the sun goes around the Earth" "statistic". Maybe 0.30%, although even that seems too high to me.
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Old 12-20-2015, 11:15 PM #1167
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mattronium View Post
No offense, but I don't think you can find any evidence for your "30% of Americans think the sun goes around the Earth" "statistic". Maybe 0.30%, although even that seems too high to me.
Quarter of Americans Convinced Sun Revolves Around Earth, Survey Finds - ABC News

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind1...pter-7/c7h.htm


http://www.gallup.com/poll/155003/Ho...n-Origins.aspx


https://watchingthedeniers.wordpress...und-the-earth/


https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wor...c-literacy.jpg



http://www.nbcnews.com/science/scien...-years-n124701


http://www.livescience.com/46123-man...ationists.html

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-000-years-old






Articles like this for example




As I listed a few examples along with a belief in the earth being the center of our solar system, I used "roughly 30%" as a stand in number for all of them to simplify the concept. The concept being that Americans are, to a great degree, scientifically illiterate.

As you assume its closer to under 1 % than to 30%, and numbers over 40% and a little under 20%, depending upon the years of the surveys, and which topic I mentioned, etc, are the real numbers...I will assume that the people YOU know are more scientifically literate, and that to YOU, the idea that an adult would not know this is preposterous.

It SHOULD be preposterous...really...but, education in many areas is politically controlled, and, the people in some school systems actually are against science. They feel its in competition with the bible as the source of all knowledge, and, they remove items from the curriculum and libraries that they don't approve of.

A child taught that the earth is 6,000 years old and that the sun goes around the earth for example, will actually be more likely to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old and that the sun goes around the earth.

A child taught that evolution is "just a theory" and not true like the bible, will have no contextual understanding of biology, and so forth.

So you and I, sure, we think its stuff every adult should know...and it is, but, too many DON'T know.



The real question is this, now, for you. Now that you HAVE evidence that many Americans are dumb about science, do you incorporate that into your knowledge base?


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Old 12-20-2015, 11:21 PM #1168
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattronium View Post
No offense, but I don't think you can find any evidence for your "30% of Americans think the sun goes around the Earth" "statistic". Maybe 0.30%, although even that seems too high to me.

It's actually 25% of Americans don't know that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Long before I even heard about this poll that the National Science Foundation conducted, I have reached a point of not being surprised by the stupidity of some people in America today.


One in four Americans unaware that Earth circles Sun
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