Old 03-31-2015, 10:08 AM #1041
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
I hope you are one day a victim of such a crime and then you will think differently about what rights we should have.
seriously? You would NEVER say that to my face! Nice another gun nut job wishing others get hurt shot or robbed just to make their point. Fear mongering is never out of the question to a Republican wacko.
Would you like for a liberal person to tell you they wish for your daughter to be raped so you can appreciate abortion? Also if you we're to get in better physical condition those muggings wouldn't have happened

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Yeah, starlight is a bit jaded by misinformation that he accepts as facts.

Apparently, he likes to say that anyone who poses a counter argument is gish galloping.

That's SUPPOSED to mean a series of small arguments that are invalid used to overwhelm an attempt to pose a response.

Its NOT supposed to apply to things like:

Man A Statement: Hammers are not used for murder as often as rifles

Man B Answer: Yes, they are, FBI studies show that hammers are used for murder far more than rifles.


Man A Statement: I am done gish galloping

I politely left this discussion but your just being outright rude now. Disagree is one thing turning sour and acting out is a direct reflection of the person you are.....

And yes you we're and still are Gish galloping not providing facts. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. You manipulate every paragraph to make it difficult to discuss.

And you'll still reply because you have no impulse control.


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Old 03-31-2015, 11:47 AM #1042
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
seriously? You would NEVER say that to my face! Nice another gun nut job wishing others get hurt shot or robbed just to make their point. Fear mongering is never out of the question to a Republican wacko.
Would you like for a liberal person to tell you they wish for your daughter to be raped so you can appreciate abortion? Also if you we're to get in better physical condition those muggings wouldn't have happened


I politely left this discussion but your just being outright rude now. Disagree is one thing turning sour and acting out is a direct reflection of the person you are.....

And yes you we're and still are Gish galloping not providing facts. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. You manipulate every paragraph to make it difficult to discuss.

And you'll still reply because you have no impulse control.
I quoted the FBI study saying that hammers killed more people every year than assault rifles, by a wide margin, because YOU essentially said hammers are not used as weapons.

That's not gish galloping.

Gish galloping would be more along the lines of me just saying hammers kill more people annually than assault rifles, w/o saying where the info came from....combined with a torrent of similar info (Not just one).

I didn't manipulate any paragraphs. I just supplied supporting information and analogies to illustrate the points. (I'm not even sure how one would "manipulate" one's OWN paragraph?)

Essentially:

YOU just call anything you don't like gish galloping because you seem to like to use the phrase.

Its normally reserved for those who are making creationist arguments.




So, if you make a statement, and I show evidence you were wrong (Hammers used as weapons, etc), that is called a discussion. If you want to find evidence that supports your claim, instead of making unsupported statements, such as that hammers are not used as weapons in any significant number, and find a study, like an FBI study for example, that shows that any gun control law, ever, reduced the murder rate, or that most mass murders were committed in locations where guns were allowed to be carried, instead of in areas where guns were not allowed to be carried, etc, show or reference those studies, instead of making unsupported arguments that are easily refuted WITH data from studies.

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Old 03-31-2015, 12:02 PM #1043
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a Cluster B personality disorder in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the damage they are causing to themselves and to others in the process.*

Teej. Statistics show people with a higher education are less likely to own a gun. What does that tell us?
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:32 PM #1044
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a Cluster B personality disorder in which a person is excessively preoccupied with personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity, mentally unable to see the damage they are causing to themselves and to others in the process.*

Teej. Statistics show people with a higher education are less likely to own a gun. What does that tell us?
Thanks for informing us of your condition, I think now we can understand you better, I hope you can get appropriate treatment.

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Old 03-31-2015, 12:43 PM #1045
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Sounds like a great place to wade in with my (supposedly) lefty UK views

The problem I have with any weapon (gun/hammer/laser) is that many people are stupid and/or irresponsible and I don't want to be around stupid irresponsible people that can hurt me with little or no consequence to themselves. Responsible people, no issues at all.

As far as I see it, controlling the ownership of a weapon removes it from the grasp of the majority of casually stupid people but leaves it in the grasp of determined stupid people. Which is great, now we have filtered out ownership to a sub-group that I really don't want to be near.

The other alternative is to furbish everyone with a weapon, which relies on the stupid people being intelligent enough to think of this as a deterrent to doing stupid things with their weapon. This is inherently bad because it seems to require intelligent reasoning from stupid people to work.

Unfortunately the only logical solution to this predicament I can see is to remove the stupid and/or irresponsible people from the equation, but I can't think of a socially acceptable way to do this
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:49 PM #1046
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

[QUOTE=starlight

Teej. Statistics show people with a higher education are less likely to own a gun. What does that tell us?[/QUOTE]




That tells us they are being protected by the less educated. Common sense isn't that common. No disrespect to the higher educated, as you cant paint an entire group with a single brush.

starlight, what Teej is trying to say is, just because you have never touched a hot stove doesn't mean the stove isn't hot!

My father used to tell me that a liberal is a Republican that's never been mugged.

There is no right or wrong, and I respect your opinion, the irrefutable facts are, guns do not kill, I own many, none of them have ever shot me.

#2 Without guns you would be a slave, probably speaking a different language, being subservient to a dictator or his thugs all of which would be carrying guns.

I am not paranoid, and I don't push my pro gun view for nothing, why do we need powerful lasers? cars that exceed 65mph? The answer is we don't "need" , we own what we want because we have the liberty and freedom to do so, and with that freedom comes responsibility.

And that freedom was granted to you by people carrying guns, that fought for something much bigger than themselves.

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Old 03-31-2015, 12:50 PM #1047
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Thanks for informing us of your condition, I think now we can understand you better, I hope you can get appropriate treatment.

No need to try and spin it we know your a fear mongering person who is to weak to defend himself so weapons are your friend. So you stand by your statement you wish for people to be robbed mugged because they disagree with you on guns? And do you agree your daughter needs to be raped? Pi seriously look in the mirror you couldn't fight your way of a paper bag so guns are attractive to you and your type. Me I'm in excellent physical shape and can defend myself just fine with "good lord you probaly worship" gave me



You defiantly can't argue your have a low IQ, statistics prove that .

Face the facts wisdom and education are the only thing that will bring you out of your issue with the infatuation with guns that you suffer.
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Old 03-31-2015, 12:57 PM #1048
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by tttonyyy View Post
Sounds like a great place to wade in with my (supposedly) lefty UK views

The problem I have with any weapon (gun/hammer/laser) is that many people are stupid and/or irresponsible and I don't want to be around stupid irresponsible people that can hurt me with little or no consequence to themselves. Responsible people, no issues at all.

OK, lets make your wish come true. There are now NO guns, hammers, lasers, or even knives. So Jonny whack job sits outside a busy place, say a movie theater with his 5000lbs pick up truck in 4wd and starts mowing people down, hundred's...how do you stop him? Wait until he runs out of gas?

Man has been killing man for 5k years, you will never stop sick people, never.

Nobody has to like guns, ever hear the quote " Sleep well because Rough stand ready to visit violence on your behalf " It may be a little off, that was off the top of my head. The point is Firearms are keeping you safe right now. You don't have to like them, just understand the truth.

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Old 03-31-2015, 01:04 PM #1049
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by SB241 View Post
OK, lets make your wish come true. There are now NO guns, hammers, lasers, or even knives. So Jonny whack job sits outside a busy place, say a movie theater with his 5000lbs pick up truck in 4wd and starts mowing people down, hundred's...how do you stop him? Wait until he runs out of gas?

Man has been killing man for 5k years, you will never stop sick people, never.
Duh you pull out your "save the world" gun and start shooting. Some people will never understand how important guns are and everyone should have one for this very reason.

Did you know mosquitoes are one of the deadist creatures on earth? We should start wearing insect repellent instead of deorderant I think we are not being safe enough here.
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650nm E-Bay 303 host 200mW (peak 141mW) 75% IR
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:20 PM #1050
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
Duh you pull out your "save the world" gun and start shooting. Some people will never understand how important guns are and everyone should have one for this very reason.

Did you know mosquitoes are one of the deadist creatures on earth? We should start wearing insect repellent instead of deorderant I think we are not being safe enough here.


starlight, I thought you were educated, if you read my post, (there are no more guns) and no, I do not wish to save the world with my guns. The point that went over you head is man will continue to kill man for the rest of time no matter what you ban or outlaw. Its human nature. Coexsist is a pipe dream, it sounds good, would be great if it were possible...

You need to take a vacation, travel to Lebanon head south and visit the Gaza strip, or Yemen is a great hot spot.

The problem with a lot of Ivy league types is they think we can sit down and talk with these animals, you cant. Its on the news every day, sit back and watch the show as we extend an olive branch to Iran and lose an arm in the process, its a steep learning curve for the book smart.
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Old 03-31-2015, 01:21 PM #1051
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by tttonyyy View Post
Sounds like a great place to wade in with my (supposedly) lefty UK views

I am sure we all want to know your views. I am well aware that things are different in the UK and what works for us isn't the right thing for you and what works for you isn't the right thing for us, that is even true here within different parts of the USA.

The problem I have with any weapon (gun/hammer/laser) is that many people are stupid and/or irresponsible and I don't want to be around stupid irresponsible people that can hurt me with little or no consequence to themselves. Responsible people, no issues at all.

I agree completely and not just stupid or irresponsible people but also criminals.

As far as I see it, controlling the ownership of a weapon removes it from the grasp of the majority of casually stupid people but leaves it in the grasp of determined stupid people. Which is great, now we have filtered out ownership to a sub-group that I really don't want to be near.

Not just determined stupid people but criminals too, I don't want to be near them or be a victim again.

The other alternative is to furbish everyone with a weapon, which relies on the stupid people being intelligent enough to think of this as a deterrent to doing stupid things with their weapon. This is inherently bad because it seems to require intelligent reasoning from stupid people to work.

I agree, this is a bad idea.

Unfortunately the only logical solution to this predicament I can see is to remove the stupid and/or irresponsible people from the equation, but I can't think of a socially acceptable way to do this
We found a way to do this, it just isn't enforced much. Here in the USA in the entire country wherever you buy a gun, there is a federal form that you have to fill out and answer some questions on, there is a list of a few things that prevent you from owning any gun. Such as:
If you were ever convicted of a felony offence.
If you were convicted of any crime that resulted in one year or more in prison.
If you received a dishonorable discharge from the military.
If you have a history of mental illness (this needs to be more clearly defined).
I don't remember what else if anything, there could have been changes in recent years. Also there is a federal law that makes it a criminal offense to provide incorrect information on any form that comes under federal jurisdiction.
Also there is a background check and waiting periods for most guns in most parts of the country with only a few exceptions, and if you don't pass the background check then you are also breaking the law by attempting to buy a gun you can't legally buy.

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Old 03-31-2015, 01:25 PM #1052
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
Duh you pull out your "save the world" gun and start shooting. Some people will never understand how important guns are and everyone should have one for this very reason.

Did you know mosquitoes are one of the deadist creatures on earth? We should start wearing insect repellent instead of deorderant I think we are not being safe enough here.
LOL

As you present mosquito threats as silly, and worrying about them is as loony as worrying about needing a gun, etc:



So, you are going camping, and, are in an area with mosquitoes or ticks, etc...

..and, you don't want to use an insect repellent, because, you, um, feel deodorant is sufficient?


People who LIVE where there are mosquitoes that can kill them, anopheles, etc, DO use protective nets over their beds if they can get them, repellents when they can get them, etc.

People who live where there are no dangers tend NOT to take precautions for dangers...that's pretty straight forward.

Are you suggesting that those in malaria infested areas only use deoderant instead of bed netting, etc, because YOU don't need bed netting where YOU are?


Also - You have mistakenly confused IQ, with education.

Sure, there may be correlations between the two, but, there are also the same correlations between education and Atheism for example.

IE: Higher IQ and higher levels of education are more associated with atheism than with theism.

By that logic, I assume you are an atheist, as you are asserting that (Or at least implying that) you are better educated, and, therefore, are more likely to not have a gun?

And, if that education makes you less likely to have a gun, it also makes you more likely to be an atheist...and so forth.

I happen to BE an atheist, and, would fit nicely into your "anti-gun" stereotype. (A welcome from a fellow atheist!)


So, a person can have a high IQ/be quite intelligent, and low education, or, a low IQ /be quite dumb and high education, etc. I have run into plenty of examples.

There are also different ways of quantifying intelligence, for example, artistic and creative talents are not part of most intelligence tests, and there are many who are of average intelligence generally, but excel at an under rated aspect, and so forth.


So, if you over lay the "education map" with the "Affluence map" you may find that the correlation could also be that wealthier people don't tend to need to protect themselves, because, where they live, they do not feel they are in danger...

Similarly, your assertion that you, who are in such great physical shape that you would be able to defeat an armed assailant, and, therefore, do not need a weapon, compared to the weak and pitiful pi for example, who may be old and infirm, and, therefore, might need a weapon to defend himself and his family, etc...ALSO speaks to your assertion that if YOU don't feel the need for protection, because YOU do not feel endangered, that therefore, no one ELSE should either.

You call a person's need to protect themselves an infatuation for example, simply because you don't get it, and, therefore, assume that your opinion is the only valid view point...and that if you are not endangered, they are wrong in thinking that THEY might be endangered.




...just like the people in the USA, for the most part, don't feel they need mosquito nets to have a good night's sleep etc. (And how YOU essentially asserted that needing protection from mosquitoes is therefore foolish).









Summary as you get overwhelmed by a lot of information in one bite:

Yes, mosquitoes are deadly, in areas where they carry certain diseases. In THOSE AREAS, protection from them is desired, and, warranted.

In other areas, where the mosquitoes are not as deadly, the precautions are not needed, and, are not warranted.

If you live in an area with no deadly mosquitoes, deciding that you don't need repellents, etc, can be completely justified, but, ALSO deciding that, therefore, no one ELSE, who may actually live where there ARE deadly mosquitoes, should have repellents, is NOT completely justified.

If YOU are immune to mosquito borne illnesses (Because of your physical condition, genetics, etc...), its cruel to then say others, more vulnerable than you are, should not need protection simply because YOU don't.


I do think that wishing you to experience Malaria, etc, is not nice, and, I disagree with those who essentially implied that if you DID get malaria, you would not be so flip about it being a problem...if that implied that they wanted you to ACTUALLY contract malaria, etc.


So I hope you never GET malaria, but, I do hope that you GET how some people DO get malaria, and then become quite interested in anti-malarial protection.

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Old 03-31-2015, 01:36 PM #1053
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
Some people will never understand how important guns are and everyone should have one for this very reason. .


My last post on this thread, I never once said "everyone should have one" that's the difference, I respect your decision not to own a gun 100%. liberals on the other hand want to impose their will on others with feel good laws that are far removed from reality.

They do nothing for safety and infringe on our rights.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:00 PM #1054
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by SB241 View Post
My last post on this thread, I never once said "everyone should have one" that's the difference, I respect your decision not to own a gun 100%. liberals on the other hand want to impose their will on others with feel good laws that are far removed from reality.

They do nothing for safety and infringe on our rights.
I don't like saying "Liberals" this or that...it dilutes the real issue.

Anti-gun rights people include conservatives for example. I also know liberals who love their guns, and so forth.

So, YES, the "Assault Weapon Ban", etc, ARE feel good meaningless drivel that are strawmen for real issues....so politicians can act like they care w/o actually doing anything useful.

Brainwashing the general populace that "More Guns = More Crime", even though all of the actual statistics point in the opposite direction, and ignoring the basic premise that LAWS tend to not deter acts, as criminals, and the insane, etc, don't tend to have a problem BREAKING laws.


IE: The law says you have to insert a block into a magazine so it can't hold more than X rounds....

So, you're robbing a bank, doing a drive by shooting, etc...and, you, um, leave that block in?



The ONLY people who leave the block in are the people who would not be DOING that robbery or drive by.


So, no, everyone should NOT have a gun. Those who want one should have the right to it though.

The idea of screening people to eliminate the whackos seems like a nice idea on the surface, albeit - we have no evidence that:

1) The whackos go to get screened

2) The screeners are competent.

3) That the screening body would not be "adapted" to wield political authority

4) The stigma of mental illness doesn't prevent those who need it, from getting help.

5) If others can "turn in" a potential whacko, it won't be used as a political/witch hunt type power.

And so forth.

I'd like to see it done right, but, have not seen it done right yet.

That needs work.



So far, it looks as though we can slip towards Australia's "solution", where they first get a list of who has what (Registration), and then proceed to confiscation. They ALSO seized upon some mass shootings by mentally ill people to initiate the anti-gun moves. (Australia never gave the RIGHT to bear arms though, so their constitution did NOT contain any right to own arms)

So, they confiscated thousands of legally owned guns, including collections, etc, and destroyed them. They claimed crime would go down as a result (Fewer guns = Fewer crimes). Crime went up instead in areas of concern, with home invasions, etc, skyrocketing as soon as the bad guys realized that the homes were NOW undefended.

It DID reduce some sub-sets, such as suicide by firearm, but, there was a proportional increase in other suicide methods, such as hanging...so, overall, people just chose other methods to kill themselves, and others, so the overall crime rates went up though.

IE: Fewer guns = MORE crimes



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Old 03-31-2015, 02:12 PM #1055
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by starlight View Post
No need to try and spin it we know your a fear mongering person who is to weak to defend himself so weapons are your friend. So you stand by your statement you wish for people to be robbed mugged because they disagree with you on guns? And do you agree your daughter needs to be raped? Pi seriously look in the mirror you couldn't fight your way of a paper bag so guns are attractive to you and your type. Me I'm in excellent physical shape and can defend myself just fine with "good lord you probaly worship" gave me

You defiantly can't argue your have a low IQ, statistics prove that .

Face the facts wisdom and education are the only thing that will bring you out of your issue with the infatuation with guns that you suffer.
Starlight,
As much as Alan annoys me (lol) I can't help but sort of take his side on this one although believe me it's simply the lesser of two evils... Frankly I don't really like your "I'm in great shape" jock mentality here... Moving on anyway.

As for being too weak to defend themselves, yep that describes me perfectly to be honest, I'm like a stick man with arms and legs. For the record I'm proud of what I've got and have no insecurities at all, but in a fight it's a matter of fact I wouldn't stand a chance against most people. That fact (which is a fact) makes me feel wary sometimes when alone after dark because it would be easy to overpower me. I don't think that makes me unreasonable in wanting to defend myself. I've toyed with the idea of carrying pepper spray (I don't care if you think that's girly) but would I carry a gun if I could legally? The honest answer is I'm not sure! There's always someone out there bigger, badder and stronger though.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:35 PM #1056
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Just a reminder to everyone, let's keep this "conversation" respectful and keep on the correct topic.
And please, NO personal attacks (ad hominem) or disrespectful behavior. I'm certain that everyone is fully capable of being respectful, so no one has an excuse .
There is nothing wrong with saying your opinion but an argument (everyone talking, no one listening) will accomplish nothing but wasting everyone's time and destroying this thread.

for listening.
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