Old 03-13-2015, 08:20 AM #993
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by millirad View Post
It's armour piercing, if your bullet proof vest is Saran wrap. Just part of the slow game to remove the operability of AR-15's
They are referring to vests when they determine a bullets armour piercing or not?


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Old 03-13-2015, 12:07 PM #994
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
They are referring to vests when they determine a bullets armour piercing or not?
Strangely, IIRC, the round has to "Have been available for A PISTOL at some point in history", so, if a round was EVER used by "A Pistol", then, it is eligible to be CALLED an armor piercing round.

And, it does refer to a "bullet rpoof vest"/body armor scenario.

So, the RIFLE rounds BEING CALLED armor piercing, are only ABLE TO BE called that because someone, somewhere, once made a pistol that could fire that round.

As far as actually piercing a kevlar vest, there are different grades of protection, but the level considered "normal" for say a tactical scenario, perhaps LIII, would be considered to stop the rounds being banned.

So, rifle rounds, driven by more powder, hit harder than pistol rounds, but, the armor piercing laws only apply to pistol rounds...

..and to a rifle round if it was ever also available as a pistol round.


So, by LAW, the common .223, etc, that in reality is not REALLY an "armor piercing round", has been CALLED an armor piercing round, because the law made it so.

They THEN said, well, "Deer don't wear armor" so why do you need an armor piercing round to hunt?

And the hunters are like "WTF".

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Old 03-15-2015, 01:42 AM #995
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

So Lady Gaga had machine gun jubblies a few times. This is from one of her music videos.

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Old 03-15-2015, 02:46 AM #996
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Meh, they did it better;

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Old 03-15-2015, 09:58 AM #997
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quite often i hear friends or people who are not familiar with shotguns have just scored them a shotgun! some talk of going to test it out somewhere, some have tested theres out, some say that its for protection and they will use if they have to.

I am quite familiar with various firearms...... So I Ask them what is it chambered for? i get funny looks? or unsure answers,
Next question i ask is what kind of choke does it have? fixed or interchangable? - open choke? mod? 3/4? full choke? or possibly even two of the above with double barrels, And i worry when the answer is ...... whats a choke bro? and after some discussion people tell me they use steel shot on both barrels of older under and overs, some say they have a solid sitting in the chamber of there older single barrel for protection which has never been tested, some have high power heavy lead loads that they pump through old shotguns,
I do give brief explanation of chokes and ammo and some people are very shocked!
some are too scared to shoot their old shotguns after i give them knowledge
just thought i would share
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Old 03-15-2015, 12:16 PM #998
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

Same with over pressure versions of other ammo, etc.

Just because you can load it in, doesn't mean its a good idea.



Part of the problem with ding dongs who buy guns w/o knowing anything about them, is that they are more likely to add to the statistics used against knowledgeable gun owners.

Its analogous to the ding dongs who buy lasers, and then point them at soccer players at world cups and airplanes at landing fields, etc.

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Old 03-15-2015, 12:35 PM #999
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Strangely, IIRC, the round has to "Have been available for A PISTOL at some point in history", so, if a round was EVER used by "A Pistol", then, it is eligible to be CALLED an armor piercing round.

And, it does refer to a "bullet rpoof vest"/body armor scenario.

So, the RIFLE rounds BEING CALLED armor piercing, are only ABLE TO BE called that because someone, somewhere, once made a pistol that could fire that round.

As far as actually piercing a kevlar vest, there are different grades of protection, but the level considered "normal" for say a tactical scenario, perhaps LIII, would be considered to stop the rounds being banned.

So, rifle rounds, driven by more powder, hit harder than pistol rounds, but, the armor piercing laws only apply to pistol rounds...

..and to a rifle round if it was ever also available as a pistol round.
Any ammo that was used in a pistol is "armour piercing"? So .22 is on this list? Sorry never owned a gun know almost nothing except they are for killing and that's not my thing.

P.S. is there a actual list of banned ammo? I would think allow it all or allow none since it all garners the same basic result.
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Old 03-15-2015, 12:38 PM #1000
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
Any ammo that was used in a pistol is "armour piercing"? So .22 is on this list? Sorry never owned a gun know almost nothing except they are for killing and that's not my thing.

P.S. is there a actual list of banned ammo? I would think allow it all or allow none since it all garners the same basic result.
No, but it has to have been a pistol round TO BE ELIGIBLE for that list....its one of the criteria.


Bows and arrows are for killing too. So are knives and axes. So are many acids and bases, etc. And so forth.

Just because you CAN kill with something doesn't make that thing bad per se.


IE: MOST people I know DON'T kill with their guns, they shoot skeet, trap, targets, plink at tun cans and so forth. Some also hunt animals, but no one I know shoots other people who are wearing bullet proof vests.


You might as well make it illegal to run a red light after committing a murder.


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Old 03-15-2015, 01:47 PM #1001
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

IE. This is the gun thread.
If you want to discuss all weaponry start a new thread for it I have no time for Gish Galloping.
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Old 03-15-2015, 01:53 PM #1002
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
IE. This is the gun thread.
If you want to discuss all weaponry start a new thread for it I have no time for Gish Galloping.
I don't understand what you mean?

This is a gun thread, you asked about ammo...you included a reference (It sounded like) to all ammo having the same result...

So some background on the problem of the ammo being regulated, which was germane to the topic...

...and you want to talk about guns, but not all guns?

Could you clarify what you mean?

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Old 03-15-2015, 02:10 PM #1003
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by RYDorDIE278 View Post
Quite often i hear friends or people who are not familiar with shotguns have just scored them a shotgun! some talk of going to test it out somewhere, some have tested theres out, some say that its for protection and they will use if they have to.

I am quite familiar with various firearms...... So I Ask them what is it chambered for? i get funny looks? or unsure answers,
Next question i ask is what kind of choke does it have? fixed or interchangable? - open choke? mod? 3/4? full choke? or possibly even two of the above with double barrels, And i worry when the answer is ...... whats a choke bro? and after some discussion people tell me they use steel shot on both barrels of older under and overs, some say they have a solid sitting in the chamber of there older single barrel for protection which has never been tested, some have high power heavy lead loads that they pump through old shotguns,
I do give brief explanation of chokes and ammo and some people are very shocked!
some are too scared to shoot their old shotguns after i give them knowledge
just thought i would share
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post
Same with over pressure versions of other ammo, etc.

Just because you can load it in, doesn't mean its a good idea.



Part of the problem with ding dongs who buy guns w/o knowing anything about them, is that they are more likely to add to the statistics used against knowledgeable gun owners.

Its analogous to the ding dongs who buy lasers, and then point them at soccer players at world cups and airplanes at landing fields, etc.

Look at this guy firing an M16, notice after the first magazine he loads another and something is wrong, what does he do? He still tries to fire, and bang! That could easily have been much worse.

http://youtu.be/Oh1lyMyejpI

I once worked with a guy that lost 3 fingers and part of his hand when target shooting and the pistol exploded, he also had a friend with a .22 rifle that he altered, I think he just changed the stock if I remember right, the guy put it back together wrong or something because the first time he fired it it exploded into multiple pieces, yes even a .22 can explode.

This one is somewhat funny in my opinion:

http://youtu.be/ITmvl5wTAUw

Keep your rifle clean:

http://youtu.be/Fkz_Zuo8g0U

Check out the shotgun shells loaded with lithium batteries, they don't work well but would probably be ok for home defense LOL.

http://youtu.be/uuOxqE5mY6c

Lots of people have built there own shotguns or other guns, I think that's a little too adventurous unless you really know what your doing.

http://youtu.be/aQsp7vz4Cyc

http://youtu.be/n1wV3lmbSv4

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Old 03-15-2015, 04:57 PM #1004
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teej View Post

...and you want to talk about guns, but not all guns?

Could you clarify what you mean?
You talked about bow and arrow and knives etc. Then the paragraph or two about how legal gun owners are basically perfect law abiding citizens. I was only trying to get clarity on armor piercing bullets and what dignifies it. I wish I had your ability to type or say so much sometimes
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Old 03-15-2015, 05:42 PM #1005
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
You talked about bow and arrow and knives etc. Then the paragraph or two about how legal gun owners are basically perfect law abiding citizens. I was only trying to get clarity on armor piercing bullets and what dignifies it. I wish I had your ability to type or say so much sometimes
He's always running off at the mouth like that. You should see what he posts in the religion thread, he writes a book in response to every post and even double and triple posts! I have lost so much time that could have been better used.

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Old 03-15-2015, 06:06 PM #1006
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

"trying to get clarity on armor piercing bullets and what dignifies it. "

I don't know what you meant by "dignifies", but I will try and clarify. I plagiarized the following from itstactical.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is the precise statutory definition of “armor-piercing ammunition,” found in 18 U.S.C §921(a)(17):

(17)
(A) The term ‘ammunition’ means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and and gas well perforating device.

What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does that answer your question?
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Old 03-15-2015, 11:59 PM #1007
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Talking Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by starlight View Post
You talked about bow and arrow and knives etc. Then the paragraph or two about how legal gun owners are basically perfect law abiding citizens. I was only trying to get clarity on armor piercing bullets and what dignifies it. I wish I had your ability to type or say so much sometimes
I said one sentence in response to your saying all the ammo garnered the same result...that compared the results form the three other "weapons" to contrast to the "garnered results".

As you want to discuss guns, without the use of comparisons, we'll just leave out comparisons to illustrate points.

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Old 03-16-2015, 01:53 AM #1008
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Warne View Post
"trying to get clarity on armor piercing bullets and what dignifies it. "

I don't know what you meant by "dignifies", but I will try and clarify. I plagiarized the following from itstactical.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is the precise statutory definition of “armor-piercing ammunition,” found in 18 U.S.C §921(a)(17):

(17)
(A) The term ‘ammunition’ means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and and gas well perforating device.

What does all that mean?

A few things to take note of is that the classification as “armor piercing” is for bullets only, not the complete cartridge. Despite the mention of handgun caliber above, you can take that to mean that it’s a round that has been made as a handgun caliber at some point.

The bullet (projectile) must also have a core made entirely out of the metals listed above, or be a full jacketed bullet with a jacket weighing more than 25% of its overall weight. This means that the SS109/M855 bullets wouldn’t be covered, as their cores are partly steel, and partly lead. Lead isn’t listed in the metals above. Furthermore, as you’ll see in the list below, the ATF has specifically stated that the SS109/M855 bullets are exempted from AP status.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does that answer your question?
Thanks.
All this time I took the words "armour piercing" in a literal sence. I mean I thought they we're some special bullet that would go through armour where as normal bullets couldn't. Shows how much I know about this stuff
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445nm Ehgemus RPL host 3W (peak 3.5W)
445nm home made labby 3W (peak 3.1W)
445nm 501b by Blord 2.5W (peak 2.7W)
447nm Dragon Lasers Spartan 1W (peak 1.3W)
520nm custom Ehgemus host NDG7475 1W (peak 1.5W)
520nm Ehgemus host PL520-B1 120mW (peak 143mW)
532nm labby 500mW (peak 630mW)
532nm Dragon Lasers Viper 75mW (peak 122mW)
532nm C6 host (peak 103mW)
532nm E-Bay 303 host 200mW (peak 95mW) 15% IR
589nm Dragon Lasers Spartan 50mW (peak 115mW)
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650nm E-Bay 303 host 200mW (peak 141mW) 75% IR
650nm DVD diode Mini Mag host 54mW (my first build)
650nm dollar store mini pen 5mW X2

808nm Wicked Lasers E2 400mW (peak 598mW)

Expanders & Googles etc:
Dragon Lasers 10x Beam Expander
Dragon Lasers "new" 2x Beam Expander
Dragon Lasers DGTBF
Dragon Lasers LSG02 goggles 190-548nm
Eagle Pair SL-BLG2 goggles 190-540nm

LPM:
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Flashlights:
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Last edited by starlight; 03-16-2015 at 01:56 AM.
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