Old 02-26-2014, 06:15 PM #849
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

A lot of people I speak to seem to be under the impression that guns are a problem in America because anyone can go into a supermarket (like Walmart) and just buy guns and ammo off the shelf like you'd buy a loaf of bread. They claim this is the reason for so many mass shootings - someone has a bad day, heads to the supermarket and comes out with a gun and shoots people.

Can any of the Americans here shed some light on the above - is it really as easy as supermarket-gun-shoot?

As far as I know obtaining guns over here in the UK isn't as hard as some think either - we just have less choice. We're not allowed to carry in public (open or concealed) and handguns, machine guns et al are strictly banned. We are allowed shotguns though and from what I hear it is relatively simple to get a shotgun license. I've used several legally owned shotguns to shoot clays and the family in question has had them for years. I'm quite partial to the idea of keeping a shotgun under the bed, but if push came to shove it'd probably be used as a weapon against me as I couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag. (I can shoot though).


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Old 02-26-2014, 06:34 PM #850
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

The thing is, the mass shootings, they are statistical anomalies. Overall, crime, and gun crime is down drastically from what it was 30 years ago.

With regard to gun laws inn the United States, the situation is somewhat more complicated.

Gun laws vary drastically from state to state.

In the states New York, and New Jersey, you must obtain a firearms license first before you can purchase a gun.

This might not sound like such a big deal, except that the process can take months, and hundreds, and often thousands of dollars, and you have to renew the license.

Even within the states there are additional restrictions from borough to borough. Getting a concealed carry permit in New York City for example, and the bad "harlem" neighborhood, is nearly impossible. Legally.

On the flip side of the equation, you have states that do permit you to walk into a store, and walk out with a rifle. There is still a background check though, and you must present a valid, state issued ID.

One of the misconception I feel exists about guns, outside the US, is that buying a gun is no big deal. It's like buying groceries, and a carton of milk.

That's simply not true.

For most people it is still an expensive proposition, and legally, it can be a huge commitment.

If you're looking for something to be afraid of, while visiting the US. Be afraid of the cops. You are more likely to be shot by a cop, than you are by an armed concealed carry permit holder.
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:27 PM #851
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
One of the misconception I feel exists about guns, outside the US, is that buying a gun is no big deal. It's like buying groceries, and a carton of milk.

That's simply not true.
Thanks and yes I have that argument all the time with my OH... I didn't think it was quite as easy as that, you've confirmed it. I also suspect that a lot of people who have got hold of guns for nefarious purposes, like mass shootings, either got them from the black market or stole them. Which, would be pretty much the same as the UK. We have black markets here and I'm sure the gun market is bigger than the TV tells us...



Quote:
If you're looking for something to be afraid of, while visiting the US. Be afraid of the cops. You are more likely to be shot by a cop, than you are by an armed concealed carry permit holder.
I'm not the police's greatest fan by any stretch of the imagination so that bit is already covered. Had plenty run-ins with them over here and one or two times has left a sour taste behind. I try to stay away from them as best I can... and they don't even get guns over here!
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:03 PM #852
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by trencheel303 View Post
Thanks and yes I have that argument all the time with my OH... I didn't think it was quite as easy as that, you've confirmed it. I also suspect that a lot of people who have got hold of guns for nefarious purposes, like mass shootings, either got them from the black market or stole them. Which, would be pretty much the same as the UK. We have black markets here and I'm sure the gun market is bigger than the TV tells us...
Where I live in California, they limit the type of guns you can buy, the magazine capacities and the ammo you can purchase. Plus, there is a 10-Day Gun Waiting Period and a strict background check along with firearms safety test you have to pass before owning a handgun, so obviously, you cannot purchase a gun and be shooting that same day with said gun. There still will be and are many people vehemently against guns in this state that claim you can easily purchase a gun here, but obviously they don't know the laws and aren't concerned with learning about them our understanding them, usually do to their agenda.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:14 PM #853
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Old 02-26-2014, 09:55 PM #854
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by trencheel303 View Post
Thanks and yes I have that argument all the time with my OH... I didn't think it was quite as easy as that, you've confirmed it. I also suspect that a lot of people who have got hold of guns for nefarious purposes, like mass shootings, either got them from the black market or stole them. Which, would be pretty much the same as the UK. We have black markets here and I'm sure the gun market is bigger than the TV tells us...
I live in MD and the gun laws are becoming like NY and NJ due to these mass shootings. This past October they banned almost every "assault" weapon from being purchased. Those who had them already were grandfathered in. This was due to the Sandy Hook shooting.... Mentally unstable kid person/kid who took his mothers gun, shot her, and then went to an elementary school and shot a bunch of little children. One of the guns he used an AR15 variant so MD banned them. Well not completely you can still get an Hbar AR15 which is the same thing but with a heavier barrel The funny thing is, rifles are seldom used in crimes its usually handguns; but because of one incident they are the worst thing out there.

Another shooting in the Naval yard and just recently in a mall they used shot guns which were shotguns purchased legally.... they just went crazy. Even without guns, if you want to hurt some you will find a way whether its a knife, car, bomb, poison..... that is why I believe guns are just a tool. Hell the boston marathon bombers used some explosives in a pressure cooker.

The one thing that really bugs me is that these mass shootings occur in gun free zones! School, Movie Theater, Mall, Inside the Navy yard (check firearms in at the gate); this means people are just sitting ducks. If you wanted to go shoot some people wouldn't you go to a place that you knew no one could shoot back because they won't have guns. In schools they have one armed officer, take him out and there is no one until the police get there. The cat is already out of the bag with guns, You can't do away with them there are too many out there and they have become easy to make. So why put law abiding citizens at a disadvantage? If a criminal was to rob you do you think they would think twice if there was a chance you were carrying... maybe not for the cracked out lunatic but for the majority of them yes.

In MD we already had more extensive background checks then other states to get a regulated firearm (handgun, "Assault" gun). Now with the new law they have added HQL (handgun qualifying license) $50, Live scan fingerprinting $60, Training Course $200-$250. That is over an additional $300 on top of a firearms purchase. They are just trying to make it unaffordable for people to get them. Despite having some of the most strict gun laws passes last year so far this year....

Quote:
BALTIMORE - A man shot early Monday morning represents Baltimore's 36th homicide in 56 days, city police said.
They are actually higher then last year, who would of thought. The thing about criminals is that they don't follow laws, or else they wouldn't be criminals. So why make it harder for legal gun owners to get guns when they aren't the ones committing the crimes over 90% of the time. Also with this amount of crime wouldn't you feel safer if you had a gun to fight back, or are you confident the police will get there in time to stop them.

The majority of people who are against guns are afraid them and don't own one. Kids are being taught guns are evil and are even being suspended for bitting a PopTart into the shape of a gun Instead of trying to scare children away from guns you should educate them.

Quote:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
The 2nd amendment was put in there for a reason. This was pulled from wikipedia...
Quote:
Early English settlers in America viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes (in no particular order)
enabling the people to organize a militia system.
participating in law enforcement;
deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection, allegedly including slave revolts;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense.
If you haven't noticed the US government is going to shit and the people aren't happy. I believe that the government is trying to disarm us and is using these mass shootings as a way to get uninformed people to agree with them. Once they have disarmed the citizens the government is completely in control.. you see what Hitler was able to do. Am I saying the US is going to start a genocide, No, but you see what a government can do once the citizens have no way of fighting back.

People will always disagree about guns just like we do with religion. If you don't want guns then don't buy them, but your not going to take mine.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:06 PM #855
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Let's not forget the other bastions of gun control heaven. Chicago, LA, San Francisco, and my personal favorite, a place where a man is now charged for just having a dud shotgun shell he kept as a souvenir: Washington D.C.

Except that statics do not bear out the rationale for gun control.

In terms of what governments can do, when the people are disarmed. Why look at Nazi Germany. We have the modern day examples of Ukraine, Venezuela,Syria, Egypt, Thailand, Russia, and at the extremes, Turkmenistan, and North Korea.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:17 PM #856
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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The cat is already out of the bag with guns, You can't do away with them there are too many out there and they have become easy to make. So why put law abiding citizens at a disadvantage?
I share that same sentiment... but saying things like that over here just causes people to tut loudly and walk away.


Quote:
The majority of people who are against guns are afraid them and don't own one. Kids are being taught guns are evil and are even being suspended for bitting a PopTart into the shape of a gun Instead of trying to scare children away from guns you should educate them.
This is true as well and is quite bad over here. "Beware of the gun, the gun is bad". Before I first fired a shotgun I was borderline terrified of "the gun". I had no idea what the kickback would be like (I'm skinny and tall, barely weigh 10 stone), of course when I fired it and my shoulder barely moved I wondered what all the fuss was about. I instantly lost my fear of "the gun" and my interest in it went up (as I've always been somewhat interested in how they work). I can happily fire shotguns now for shot after shot with no worry and I don't get the sore shoulder like some do (I'm still learning with moving targets...).

I have presented arguments before that if someone really wants to kill they'll pick up the nearest meat cleaver, golf club, baseball bat, ... and go whack the postman or something. People tend to have a hard time reconciling what I just said and can't help but come back to "the gun is bad" as if the gun somehow possesses people and forces them to pick it up and go shooting. Perhaps it's because they think firing a gun is less effort than stabbing or bludgeoning, although I enjoy firing a shotgun I wouldn't define it as "effortless" either. (although that's probably because I can hardly lift it )


Quote:
Once they have disarmed the citizens the government is completely in control. you see what Hitler was able to do. Am I saying the US is going to start a genocide, No, but you see what a government can do once the citizens have no way of fighting back.
This is something I've also said but again people just tend to turn away...
I can't make my mind up on the constitution though, I guess I don't know enough about it. It does seem old fashioned though and unsurprising there are attempts to move away from it.
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Old 02-26-2014, 11:58 PM #857
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

This is a good thing to hear!

Connecticut Gun Owners Ignore Registration Deadline
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:10 AM #858
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

I'm afraid the more I learn about cops, the less I expect the situation would be the same here.

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• Police departments failed to use the registry partly because of vast errors in the database and partly because it only tracked law-abiding Canadians which helped not at all when tracking down criminals.

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Old 02-27-2014, 04:00 AM #859
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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I'm afraid the more I learn about cops, the less I expect the situation would be the same here.
Dont even get me started on the police.

I just saw this video earlier today and honestly this makes me sick. I dont even know what else to say.




Oh I know what else I was going to say. Fucking disgusting pigs

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Old 02-27-2014, 04:57 AM #860
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Unbelievable. Every single of those pigs that so much as laid a finger on him should be charged with first degree murder, or accessory to murder.

He didn't want to give them an ID, that's his right.

Currently, you are not required to produce any form of identification unless you are in a position/situation that specifically requires it. For example if you're driving a car.

You are required to identify yourself, only by name and address. That's it.

It's a safe bet the coroners report will find the man died because of A. Mechanical Asphyxiation (having five guys on your back will do that) B. Heart Attack, and or stroke.

Of course he is overweight, so the pigs will defend their actions, and blame a pre-existing health condition for his untimely demise. You can also bet all of them will back up each other's story.

Of course there wouldn't even be an inquiry if not for the heart wrenching video.

And still cops wonder why everyone hates them, and a badge only inspires only fear, paranoia, and anxiety.

TO EVERYONE: If you don't already have an app installed to record police interactions, that automatically uploads everything. Do it. Do it now. Nobody ever thinks things like that can happen to them until after they do.

Last edited by InfinitusEquitas; 02-27-2014 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:48 AM #861
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

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Originally Posted by trencheel303 View Post
Before I first fired a shotgun I was borderline terrified of "the gun". I had no idea what the kickback would be like (I'm skinny and tall, barely weigh 10 stone), of course when I fired it and my shoulder barely moved I wondered what all the fuss was about. I instantly lost my fear of "the gun" and my interest in it went up (as I've always been somewhat interested in how they work). I can happily fire shotguns now for shot after shot with no worry and I don't get the sore shoulder like some do (I'm still learning with moving targets...).
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:14 PM #862
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Yet another trigger happy pig;

Quote:
SC officer shoots man reaching for cane

COLUMBIA, S.C. — A police officer in South Carolina shot a 70-year-old motorist who was reaching for a cane during a traffic stop because he thought the man was grabbing a rifle from the bed of his pickup truck, investigators said. The man was expected to survive.

The York County deputy, Terrence Knox, pulled over Bobby Canipe (kah-NYP’) of Lincolnton, N.C., for an expired license tag about 7:30 p.m. Tuesday north of Clover, S.C., York County sheriff’s spokesman Trent Faris said.

After stopping, Canipe got out of his pickup truck and reached into the bed, pulling out what Knox thought was a long-barreled rifle, Faris said. It was Canipe’s walking cane. The officer fired several times, hitting Canipe once, Faris said.
SC officer shoots man reaching for cane - The Washington Post
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:30 PM #863
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

It's not just the US police that are crooked as fuck - except our regular officers over here don't have guns and we don't just ram people off the road two minutes into a car chase. (instead we dispatch half of England's police force in the slowest cars they've got, haplessly throw spike strips all over the road, have some helicopters in there for good measure and then chase the person for an hour until they run out of fuel or the car dies It's really very lilly livered compared to America's approach)

Shit does hit the fan all the time though, I guess not many of you read UK news but there was a case recently of several officers cohorting to have an MP sacked. We've also had incidents where people have been shot dead by the armed police (a step above your average constable) and most of the time they're not British Caucasian.

Then there's also things like this:


If you are challenged for an attention span skip to around the 50 second mark and pay careful notice to how the question of "have you had a drink" then turns to "you've been drinking", a full on accusation of drink driving and then an attempt at an arrest.

The police _HATE_ you filming them over here, even although on public ground it is perfectly legal. They will do everything in their power to try and scare you into stopping filming and even trying to make you delete images (which is actually destruction of evidence). Yet they'll happily film away public and private properties for the TV programs they make.

I don't like the smell of bacon any more than most in this thread...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi R Squared View Post
Once you have fired one you will really like it.
I have quite a few times. The apprehension I was describing was from before I'd fired a gun and is probably what most UK citizens feel like, i.e. "fear the gun".
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:01 PM #864
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Default Re: Gun Discussion

Unfortunately, there were several very slow steps to US cops becoming what they are now. First and foremost, arrests, simply on the charge of "Resisting Arrest" were upheld.

Then there was the supreme court ruling that held that a reasonable use of force, need not be the same as the minimum amount of force that can be used. All of a sudden cops were freed up to reach for a baton, taser, pepper spray, and of course the gun.

Another supreme court ruling made it legal, that a police officer has no duty to actually protect anyone. If a cop sees you being beaten, he can legally stand by and watch. Just so long as he says the magic words: "I feared for my life."

Then there is something called functional immunity. Normally people think of this as something that applies to diplomats. Unfortunately it's also a factor in the work of every police officer in the US. Unless a police officer can be proven to be acting illegally, they do not face any form of personal responsibility. Want to make a cop laugh? Tell him you're going to sue him.

After 9/11, the law was also changed to permit cops to detain people without arrest for up to 24 hours. So now what we're left with is a police force which can legally beat the shit out of you, throw you in a holding cell, and charge you for assault, and resisting arrest. Basically on a whim.

Cops in the US absolutely despise being filmed, and in many states they have even tried to fight back. Cellphones are routinely confiscated. Pictures and footage are deleted all the time.

From a legal perspective, laws created in the 1970's, for wiretapping, are being used to charge people. These cases are always dismissed, but not before the life of the recorder is turned upside down, they spend time in jail, and often have their lives ruined.

On this at least for the moment, supreme court is very clear though. You may film any police officer, anyone for that matter, so long as you do so either from your own property, private property with the permission of the owner, or from any public venue.

Somehow cops can't seem to get the memo though. In fact one way they try to take away phones is they ask to see them, or have the person put them down, because it could be a gun.
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