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Old 02-11-2017, 02:55 AM #257
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
This is a valid point. I think the order should be reversed.

Greed is something that, for most people, has it's limits. Once you live a comfortable life, with plenty of food, drink, good housing, utilities and all that many people will be content with that. They may aspire to gain more, but it's not a big priority once you are comfortable.

Religion is more complex, at least when it goes anywhere beyond personal beliefs.

I think we should give up all religion as fast as possible, but that's not a very realistic scenario. The problem with religion in the (inherit) lack of evidence. Anyone can claim to be 'right' about what would happen after death, and there is no way to prove any of it.

I'm atheist myself and have no problem accepting the concept that i will cease to exist in any form when i die, but the vast majority of people on earth have different ideas about that.

That in itself is not even a big problem, if i beleive death is the end, you think you'll go to valhalla and another thinks he'll be going to heaven or paradise, there is no reason we cannot co-exist.

The problems start when people get the idea that they need to convice others to join their believes and want to convert them to their religion, or act badly to those with different ideas.

And there is a bit of a relationship between greed and supposed afterlife as well: In some cultures there is a concept of bringing worldly posessions into the afterlife. This may make people more greedy just to secure supplies for some afterlife that may or may not come, taking them from people that actually need them to survive their life on earth as it is.
What do we do with all the legal mumbo jumbo that places God as the placeholder above government...my time researching strawman legal fictions and sovereignty revealed how important it is that there be something held higher than government, set in stone. That's the big snag I see. A bunch of other concerns but not going there in this thread.

consider it fiction unless you draw connections I found it interesting.
http://www.constitution.org/mercier/incon.htm


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Old 02-11-2017, 08:18 AM #258
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Exclamation Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

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Originally Posted by RedCowboy View Post
I have to be honest with myself, I am really a hell of a nice guy and would love to see one world of people working together, children growing up exploring the boundaries or their minds without worry of food, housing or medical.

But I know how the bastards in charge around the globe think and I must say that guaranteeing my side will win and win with the least losses is the prudent way to prepare and hopefully it won't be needed.

The world needs a strong man with clean morals, we could have done it, we Americans were so far ahead that we could have lead the world into unity, but we let greed and complacency galvanized in outright apathy ruin our chance, maybe China will prove to be the strong and the kind.......crap

Our only chance is to stop lying to ourselves, WE ARE ALL GREEDY and children taught to hate and kill infidels are a disease, we can't find a balance by willing it to be, we must face the whole truth and work for it, I watch our leaders fight like angry children, so mad they didn't get their way, it's sickening.

There is very little self sacrifice for what works by those in power, soldiers and police give more of themselves than anyone, no NOT the few bad apples, but those who are willing to die for us all, if only our leaders had that dedication.
This is a very interesting post.. I've met people who were taught to hate infidels or "Kafir". I've had the luxury of teaching them how to integrate into an International School setting. It's pretty alarming(sickening) to hear some of the rhetoric that gets taught to little kids in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi public education system is based largely on (Tasfir)or memorizing the Qu'ran and very little else (system based largely on Wahhabi style Sunni Islam). I've never seen such poor literacy rates ( both in English and in their own language Arabic) in children than Saudi students.
Despite being told by 8-11yr olds I should convert to Islam many times when teaching them I had to remind these students that they needed to respect other religions and cultures (respect goes both ways). By the 3rd month of me teaching them, they started to deprogram and integrate with the other students. (while it wasn't perfect) it was a far cry than how they started off.

What really shocked me was when we had parent teacher interviews. I was responsible for showing their children's literacy progress. Saudi fathers would listen to me as I am male. However,
The fathers would completely ignore the female teachers when they were speaking, and instead turn and ask the closest male to tell the results for the female teachers. Females were completely invisible to them. Like non-persons. As you can imagine this made for some very awkward moments.

I am convinced that a lack of Education ( and skills) is what primarily drives extremism in the Middle East. Groups like Daesh (ISIS) feed on these people to give themselves to a cause as they have nothing else going for them.
It's no wonder why most Daesh members have no idea about the Qur'an's real message. .

Some quotes that are essential to Islam that denounce Terrorism/killing:

Quote:
1. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”
2. If the motive for terrorism is religious, it is impermissible in Islamic law. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people. The Qur’an says, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). Note that this verse was revealed in Medina in 622 AD or after and was never abrogated by any other verse of the Quran. Islam’s holy book forbids coercing people into adopting any religion. They have to willingly choose it.
3. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”
4. In the Islamic law of war, not just any civil engineer can declare or launch a war. It is the prerogative of the duly constituted leader of the Muslim community that engages in the war. Nowadays that would be the president or prime minister of the state, as advised by the mufti or national jurisconsult.
5. The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)
6. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power. The principle of forbidding the spreading of terror in the land is based on the Qur’an (Surah al-Ma’ida 5:33–34). Prominent [pdf] Muslim legal scholar Sherman Jackson writes, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . . .”
7. Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent. The Prophet Muhammad at one point gave 4 months notice.
8. The Prophet Muhammad counseled doing good to those who harm you and is said to have commanded, “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
9. The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.”[5:8]
10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.
Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): “Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.”
In other words, the Quran promises Christians and Jews along with Muslims that if they have faith and works, they need have no fear in the afterlife. It is not saying that non-Muslims go to hell– quite the opposite.
When speaking of the 7th-century situation in the Muslim city-state of Medina, which was at war with pagan Mecca, the Quran notes that the polytheists and some Arabian Jewish tribes were opposed to Islam, but then goes on to say:
5:82. ” . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers [Muslims] those who say: ‘We are Christians.’ That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud.”
So the Quran not only does not urge Muslims to commit violence against Christians, it calls them “nearest in love” to the Muslims! The reason given is their piety, their ability to produce holy persons dedicated to God, and their lack of overweening pride.
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Old 02-11-2017, 05:25 PM #259
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Islam comes in various degrees.

Currently i am in indonesia, and differences are huge. Last week is was in jakarta where vrshops like 7/11 are now legally allowed to sell beer again, but very few of them actually do.

I have gone to Bali since that and everything that remotely looks like a minimarket sells beer.
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Old 02-12-2017, 05:44 PM #260
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Lightbulb Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

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Originally Posted by Benm View Post
Islam comes in various degrees.

Currently i am in indonesia, and differences are huge. Last week is was in jakarta where vrshops like 7/11 are now legally allowed to sell beer again, but very few of them actually do.

I have gone to Bali since that and everything that remotely looks like a minimarket sells beer.
You'd be hardpressed to see that in Brunei, now that Brunei officially adopted a very strict interpretation of Sharia law.

I was about to go work there in 2013 but the company decided to move their contracts to Malaysia because of the suspension of Brunei's status from the commonwealth group of nations. (no more contracts)
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