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Old 01-31-2017, 01:07 AM #193
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Angry Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by H2Oxide View Post
Alright, who's personal freedoms and liberties then? Visa holders/refugees, or American citizens? How are different freedoms being violated now vs. in 2011?
to clarify this .. that was completely different set of circumstances with a well heeled plan by the Obama administration to freeze the refugee program from Iraq.
A single country and credible intelligence to warrant such actions.
Other countries were notified of the ban well in advance. There is a major difference here. In this circumstance no country was notified before the ban went into effect as this was an (immediate) executive order. Now you have border patrols, CBSA (Canadian Boarder Services Agency) and US customs struggling to keep up with the changes that are occurring at any of the border crossings. (Land, Sea and Air).. CBSA of course has to re-admit those who are rejected at the US side of the boarder making for large backlogs.


Quote:
And I'd hardly call a single attack "a surge of ultra-right wing nationalism." The minute Canada as a whole starts doing anything even remotely nationalistic I'll eat my hat.
You're splitting hairs here... Right Wing Ultra-Nationalism = hate groups.
We've just had a terrorist attack by a Quebec Ultra-Nationalist and there have been numerous incidents with the Soldiers of Odin, Aryan Nations, Storm Front right across Canada since Trump's presidency. Trumps comments are only spurring them on.
Lots of evidence pointing that this is the case.






Quote:
What do you mean by this? I didn't understand what was written where? By whom? If you mean the executive order itself, I have read and understood it in its entirety. Please clarify. As for world news, the only reverberations I've seen stem from confusion (mostly at airports). Again, if you want to discuss a specific event please clarify; you can't just say "haven't you seen the world news?" and expect me to know what you're talking about. My work load doesn't allow me to comb through every single news story from every country, unfortunately.
Numerous news agencies are reporting on the US travel ban causing global impacts from this executive decision ( no countries were informed ahead of of the ban) as well as the massive protests against the measure going on internationally. Your country will face repercussions at the UN as the ban also violates numerous long standing international laws and treaties that were signed by past presidents.

You seem to shrug it off as though it's not happening nor a big deal.


Quote:
And why should we be outraged? America's duty is to her own people first. US citizens have not had any restrictions placed on them. America has no duty to ensure the safety or well-being of foreign nationals.
That's quite a National-Centric response...
Sure, US has a responsibility to it's citizens. Agreed... BUT Since you have ports of entry, including those by air, you (USA) also have an international responsibility to protect those who transit through your country. It's not only about Americans. That's not how it works!
That's what I don't understand by your response. American is part of the International community last time I checked.


Quote:
What relevance does this have? No group is being persecuted...?
lol... Is that a question?.... Relevance of the last quote = Everything.

That's just it... that's how this ban is being perceived Internationally. Persecution for being Muslim American, Iranian with Green cards, Iraqi American, Syrian refugees...list continues and being denied the right to go back to their home in the US, go back to work, back to continue their PhD's or Masters at University and or visit family even transit through the US to another destination.

If this is perfectly fine with you then I suggest you switch places with one of the many people effected and see what it feels like to be denied entry/re-entry, a job, and or continuation of your masters/PhD, or visiting family/ being split up as a family.
Have you no empathy?


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Old 01-31-2017, 01:25 AM #194
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

On this point I think you hit the nail on the head.

I think his way of looking at negotiations is to come in right off that bat and say the most crazy thing that the other side will never agree to(like pay for the wall) gets everyone all worked up in an absolute tizzy(threaten tariffs) then sits back and studies all the pieces on the board go like wind up toys. This can be done to exposes real positions. test alliances and finding where positions can be moved for traction toward the real unsaid goal line.

Take the tariffs for instance. I really doubt he is dumb enough to really want them and start a trade war as nobody will win from that but it is a perfect threat to not only size up mexico but sizing up the dems and specially the republicans as well.

In the end the goal is to get 75% of what the other side did not want to give up hoping they think it is win to move him back 25%. One thing that is crazy our politicians in the past have gone in and said exactly what they will and will not negotiate on out of the gate like armatures and loose every time.

Now if he will rip this country apart in the process is the most worrying part to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
Interesting to watch all of this (Trump's antics). It's all smoke and mirrors, you know, right?

1. At the most basic level, Trump is a businessman. Never forget this.
2. He's the man who wrote "The Art of the Deal".
3. All businessmen make deals.

Remember these three points and you'll understand what is going on.

First, it was the wall with Mexico. The media went into a frenzy.
Second, it's immigration. The media switched gears and are now all over this.

Third, ?

Yes, "what is #3"? Wait and see.

So to review.

Multiple issues ........ make for multiple deals .......

He's not stupid ...... he's just about 5 moves ahead of us.

Don't let your emotions get in the way of your thinking.
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Old 01-31-2017, 02:04 AM #195
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

It's been 1 week and already we have protests around the country, wow....

-Alex
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Old 01-31-2017, 02:50 AM #196
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

@ dtr

I'm sure he soaked up intel waving a carrot in front of Romney.
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:15 AM #197
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
to clarify this .. that was completely different set of circumstances with a well heeled plan by the Obama administration to freeze the refugee program from Iraq.
A single country and credible intelligence to warrant such actions.
Other countries were notified of the ban well in advance. There is a major difference here. In this circumstance no country was notified before the ban went into effect as this was an (immediate) executive order. Now you have border patrols, CBSA (Canadian Boarder Services Agency) and US customs struggling to keep up with the changes that are occurring at any of the border crossings. (Land, Sea and Air).. CBSA of course has to re-admit those who are rejected at the US side of the boarder making for large backlogs.
We've established this. The ban throws things way out of wack, I'm not disagreeing with you on that. However, you've failed to address the question of how the ban violates personal liberties and freedoms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
You're splitting hairs here... Right Wing Ultra-Nationalism = hate groups.
We've just had a terrorist attack by a Quebec Ultra-Nationalist and there have been numerous incidents with the Soldiers of Odin, Aryan Nations, Storm Front right across Canada since Trump's presidency. Trumps comments are only spurring them on.
Lots of evidence pointing that this is the case.
Canada has a long history of nationalistic terror. This is nothing new. In fact, the number of nationalist terror attacks you've had is second only to your number of radical Islamic terror attacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
Numerous news agencies are reporting on the US travel ban causing global impacts from this executive decision ( no countries were informed ahead of of the ban) as well as the massive protests against the measure going on internationally. Your country will face repercussions at the UN as the ban also violates numerous long standing international laws and treaties that were signed by past presidents.

You seem to shrug it off as though it's not happening nor a big deal.
Yes, we've established that it has caused problems, and yes, we've established that there are protests. Now, unless you have specific examples that you wish to point out, let's move on.

As for the UN, the U.S. provides more than double the funding of any other country. I'm not saying that the U.S. should be immune from punishment, or that at its core the UN is a bad idea, but if the values of the UN don't align with the values of the U.S., then it may be time to re-evaluate our position in the UN.

And it really isn't that big of a deal. Trump has temporarily blocked ~0.02% of the world from entering the US while we get our ducks in a row. Yet people are protesting this "Muslim ban" (fun fact, over 90% of the global Muslim population isn't barred from entering the country) like it's the end of the goddamn world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
That's quite a National-Centric response...
Sure, US has a responsibility to it's citizens. Agreed... BUT Since you have ports of entry, including those by air, you (USA) also have an international responsibility to protect those who transit through your country. It's not only about Americans. That's not how it works!
That's what I don't understand by your response. American is part of the International community last time I checked.
I would consider myself a semi-Nationalist, though I'm not sure exactly how that works with dual-citizenship. Dual-Nationalist maybe?

The thing is, we decide who comes through our ports of entry. And I'm not saying that it's only about Americans. What I'm saying is that America's duty should be to her citizens first, not exclusivley.

And I've heard a lot of people talk about how "If the US wants to close their borders then let them, let's see how they fare without the rest of the world" lately. Quite honestly, if everyone else is going to criticize the US for everything we do, I'd like to see how the rest of the world fares without the United States for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
lol... Is that a question?.... Relevance of the last quote = Everything.

That's just it... that's how this ban is being perceived Internationally. Persecution for being Muslim American, Iranian with Green cards, Iraqi American, Syrian refugees...list continues and being denied the right to go back to their home in the US, go back to work, back to continue their PhD's or Masters at University and or visit family even transit through the US to another destination.
You seem to have a serious misunderstanding of what "persecution" actually is. Not letting people into your country is not "systematic unjust treatment." If I wanted to come into your home and you didn't want me to (even if you had something of mine), are you persecuting me? No.

But if I barged my way into your house and started killing your family because I didn't like their beliefs, that would be persecution.

The U.S. isn't actually "coming after" anybody.

Also, the only people who have a right to come into the U.S. are U.S. citizens. For everyone else (like visa holders), it's a privilege.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
If this is perfectly fine with you then I suggest you switch places with one of the many people effected and see what it feels like to be denied entry/re-entry, a job, and or continuation of your masters/PhD, or visiting family/ being split up as a family.
Have you no empathy?
I guess it depends on how you define empathy. I consider pathos the least important part of an argument by a long shot, so take that how you will.

My mother is in the U.S. on a visa. She is not a citizen. She and I both recognize that the United States has a right to deny her entry for whatever reason (which has actually happened before).

Would we be happy about it? Certainly not. But we recognize that the U.S. has a duty to its own citizens first, and to everyone else second. If they wanted to deny my mother entrance to the U.S. again, she has absolutely no right to demand in.

/wall of text
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:54 PM #198
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

I see Trump's ban like this...

Say there is a terrorist event in a large building like...
say Trump Towers...
The Police/Authorities get there within minutes and the
Terrorist is suspected to be still in the building.
What is the logical thing to do...
Let all the guests leave at will or...
Lock down the entire building temporarily and srutinize
every guest one at a time to find the guilty suspect.

I'm sure all the family members of/and any innocent guests
would be outraged that they were suspects under house
arrest.
Like they say... You can't please all the people all the time.

Jerry
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Old 01-31-2017, 03:28 PM #199
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

We live in interesting times... no doubt. I'm watching with great interest.
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:15 PM #200
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by lasersbee View Post
I see Trump's ban like this...

Say there is a terrorist event in a large building like...
say Trump Towers...
The Police/Authorities get there within minutes and the
Terrorist is suspected to be still in the building.
What is the logical thing to do...
Let all the guests leave at will or...
Lock down the entire building temporarily and srutinize
every guest one at a time to find the guilty suspect.

I'm sure all the family members of/and any innocent guests
would be outraged that they were suspects under house
arrest.
Like they say... You can't please all the people all the time.

Jerry
The problem with this scenario is that the Exclusion Order specifically does not apply to few floors, from which we know for a fact, a terrorist was from.

The Trump administration is playing a much deeper game, right now they are simply testing the limits of their power, and trying to figure out who would support them, without regard for little things like say the orders of a judge.
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:53 PM #201
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Ok, it's smoke and mirrors time.

"Donald Trump pledges to bring back jobs."

Well he didn't actually bring these jobs back, but he did cause the companies to create them........ And you know, there will be support jobs for these jobs.

Companies (so far) that pledge to hire refugees...


Chobani - Pledge: Continue its current hiring practices: Nearly 30% of yogurt-factory employees are resettled refugees.

DSM - Pledge: Help refugees in the U.S. build language and cultural skills, and look for opportunities to hire them within the life-sciences and materials company.

Figure 8 Investment Strategies - Pledge: Assist refugees in obtaining financial certifications and jobs at its firm. Resettled refugees make up half the Idaho-based startup’s current workforce.

Lynke - Pledge: Open a new tech center in Jordan, doubling the number of refugees the app-building agency employs. (Based in the U.S., Lynke hires refugees in conflict regions to work on projects for tech companies, and separately helps connect refugees with tech jobs.)

Oliver Wyman - Pledge: Recruit qualified refugees to work in its consulting-firm outposts in the U.K., Germany, France, and Italy.

Uber - Pledge: Help resettled refugees in the U.S. find jobs as drivers.

Although Starbucks is offering to hire 10,000 refugees, they are doing it worldwide, but not committing to hire them all in the US. <-- so that doesn't really count. Nice headline grab Starbucks.

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Old 01-31-2017, 05:20 PM #202
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

I will guarantee you their hiring refugees is also because they are desperate...
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:52 PM #203
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Lightbulb Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan View Post
I will guarantee you their hiring refugees is also because they are desperate...
I disagree. This is a way for companies to voice their opinions (dissent) about the ban. Elon Musk has a few employees in top level positions that are from these countries. Google and Apple do as well.

Not really about being desperate, but being shocked and alarmed about the direction of the new administration. They have offered to hire refugees to do what they feel is their social responsibility/obligation as a company when Government decides to strand families, University students, Intl.Lawyers, business people, engineers, military support personnel, translators....

Quote:
President Donald Trump signed an executive order on Friday, January 27th that has led to chaos and confusion at US borders and at points of entry around the world. The order on immigration banned refugees from entering the US for 120 days, and established an indefinite ban on Syrian refugees. But the order goes far beyond blocking refugees, and has resulted in detention of visa holders, and general confusion about foreign entry into the country. Scientists, students, and veterans who cooperated with the US military in Iraq are among those who have reportedly been detained, questioned, or denied entry into the country.

Technology companies including Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Uber, Netflix, and others have responded with varying degrees of concern or outrage, as protests at New York City's JFK airport and other locations around the country grew on Saturday.

Tech companies are joining forces with the Washington state government to fight against Donald Trump’s recent immigration-related executive order. Washington Attorney General Bob Ferguson filed a lawsuit today against Trump’s order, which bars legal immigrants and refugees from seven majority-Muslim countries from entering the US and bans Syrian refugees indefinitely.

Now, at least three tech companies — Microsoft, Amazon, and Expedia — are joining that legal fight. A Microsoft spokesman told Reuters that the company is providing information about the effect of the order in order to "be supportive." They also would "be happy to testify further if needed."
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:00 PM #204
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

But they are desperate. Eager to take any job snf be happy with what is offered, perhaps as a political statement paid the going rate, if so, in a way Trump caused them to have those jobs.
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Old 01-31-2017, 06:57 PM #205
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
The Trump administration is playing a much deeper game, right now they are simply testing the limits of their power, and trying to figure out who would support them, without regard for little things like say the orders of a judge.
You may have a point...

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Old 01-31-2017, 11:50 PM #206
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Lightbulb Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Emergency meeting on the Travel ban today in the House of Commons
and update on a false report by FOX news regarding the massacre in Montreal Quebec.




Quote taken from CTV news.

Quote:
Trudeau’s communications chief Kate Purchase sent a letter to Fox News Channel’s co-president, Bill Shine, outlining that the erroneous post continues to be circulated online.
“These tweets by Fox News dishonour the memory of the six victims and their families by spreading misinformation, playing identity politics, and perpetuating fear and division within our communities,” Purchase wrote in the letter.
“Muslims are predominantly the greatest victims of terrorist acts around the world. To paint terrorists with a broad brush that extends to all Muslims is not just ignorant -- it is irresponsible.”
The letter ends with Purchase asking Fox News to retract the tweet or issue an update with correct information.
Fox News appears to have corrected its reporting in an online story posted Monday that clarifies that the man “of Moroccan origin” was identified as a witness by police.
Police have arrested Alexandre Bissonnette, a 27-year-old of French-Canadian origin, in connection with the attack. Trudeau and police officials have described the shooting as an act of terror.

More on fallout from the ban.
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Donald Trump Inauguration-screen-shot-2017-01-31-4.40.57-pm.png  
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:36 PM #207
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Does the travel ban effect Canadian citizens in any way? That would be just absurd.

Meanwhile my own fingerprints have just been taken this morning for the unpteenth time for Global Entry/TSA Precheck. Apparently a background check into me revealed I just like going on vacations, and I was a bit impressed they already knew I booked a flight just couple of days ago for the first of March.

Fox is just an awful news channel. All of them are now days. CNN, MSNBC, equally as bad just from a different slant. While there are 3 official branches of the government that are supposed to check each other, the fourth, the civilian media, has clearly failed.
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Old 02-01-2017, 05:49 PM #208
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

As I understand it we have Muslims up here to...

As for the News thing... Dramatic Fake News gets
the ratings up.
It used to be that you could trust the news...

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