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Old 01-29-2017, 07:46 PM #177
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

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Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
This is a clear violation of the "first freedom" listed in the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights.

Don't those technically only apply to American Citizens?


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Old 01-29-2017, 07:50 PM #178
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

This will work itself out, unfortunately not gracefully.
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:54 PM #179
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Post Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

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Originally Posted by diachi View Post
Don't those technically only apply to American Citizens?
It's not really clear cut Diachi. This is one reason why International Lawyers exist. short answer: Yes and No...

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Old 01-29-2017, 09:05 PM #180
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

This immigration situation is a mess. I don't know how it's going to play out at all. It sucks they barred a lot of residents, valid visa-holding travelers, and green card holders from entering the country. I honestly can't see the situation being loosened back up for refugees or anybody not already working towards residency/visa any time during the current presidency though. Maybe if congress gets turned back to the Democrats in 2018.

Calling this situation a "Muslim Ban" is really misleading though. This ban doesn't include a lot of major Muslim countries just in/near the Arab world, Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Qatar, Jordan, Lebanon, and the UAE. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt, and Lebanon were the sources of the 9/11 attackers. Trump has business in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, and Qatar.

I feel like all this is probably more fear mongering in the public than anything else. There's no way this is just trying to get rid of Muslim influence in American society, and it's not going to protect from terrorism at all. It's quite a disturbing situation.

Putting the tin foil hat on, is our government preparing to do something big in that part of the world?
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Old 01-29-2017, 09:28 PM #181
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

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Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
You do realize of course that these actions put millions at risk, not just American dual citizens but anyone flying connection flights to Canada or internationally through the US. People studying overseas doing doctoral research can't come home, families split. Are you actually condoning this? Freedom of religion, freedom from not being judged by ones origin of birth.... seriously!! Read the immediate effects it has had in the last 12 hrs!

Congrats, restricting freedom of movement is one step closer to a dictatorship.
The outrage here is building and internationally as well.

Spreading freedom and democracy as usual, holy .... this makes me angry!
The ban does not affect dual US citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
"The same State Department official told CNN that the executive order "should not affect dual-national Americans at all," meaning a US citizen who also holds citizenship from one of Trump's seven banned countries would be allowed in."
It only affects those with dual citizenship from one of the blacklisted countries and citizenship from another country that's not the US. As long as someone's a US citizen, they should be able to leave and come back to the USA as much as they please.

It is not the United State's job to ensure the safety of foreigners. Playing the "Appeal to Pity" card won't change that. And again, this isn't permanent. Speculating that it may be more than it appears is just that, speculation. If the ban isn't lifted in a few months we can discuss it, but for now we can assume that the ban is only temporary.

As for the effects it has had in the past 12 hours, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The ban seems to have largely been enacted. The only thing extra is all of the protestors, but thus far we've had truckloads of sobbing liberals protesting everything Trump does (including just coming into office), so it's not really anything out of the ordinary.

What I'm most confused about is why this is blowing up now. The Obama administration placed a 6 month ban on immigration from Iraq in 2011, but nobody was calling out violations of freedoms or human rights then.

EDIT: Plus I'm sure our glorious Prime Minister will accept all the refugees the US doesn't.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:06 AM #182
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

I think this situation got a lot of people worried, especially those that come from those nations and currently work in the US. They fear that either their visa will be revoked and have to leave, or that they will be unable to fly back home for a holiday and then back to the US to continue their work.

One thing that makes this problematic is that it is essentially airlines enforcing these rules, since they have to take people back at their expense when not allowed entry into the US.

So what could happen is that someone of iranian nationality legally working or studying in the US could fly home, but not get onto a flight back to the US because the airline worries they -might- be denied entry.

What would have been more clear would be a ban for people with these nationalities coming into the US for the -first- time. Since the US requires visa for citizens most countries (even western european ones!) it would be a lot easier to simply reject all new requests.

Personally i think the EU should now require US citizens to apply for visa to enter the schengen european entry, since the US requires the same of EU citizens. The downside of that is practial matters: europe doesn't really do electronic visa so you'd actually have to go to an embassy or consulate to obtain one. Within the US that would be problematic given the size of the country and the likelyhood of having just one embassy in washington which you'd need to personally visit
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:32 AM #183
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Ha, what a mess! I see the problems, the injustices which can and are happening, hope it all shakes out well, the travelers from the countries on that list should be fully vetted, I think. However, the price to some is unreasonable, seems we are stuck between a rock and a hard spot on making this work well for everyone but what we are trying to do, is filter, no entry filter is perfect, some problem individuals will get through anyway, while innocents blocked. I still want to see something in place to at least try to filter the threats, good thing my wife is from Ukraine because she only has a green card right now.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:00 AM #184
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by H2Oxide View Post
The ban does not affect dual US citizens.



It only affects those with dual citizenship from one of the blacklisted countries and citizenship from another country that's not the US. As long as someone's a US citizen, they should be able to leave and come back to the USA as much as they please.

It is not the United State's job to ensure the safety of foreigners. Playing the "Appeal to Pity" card won't change that. And again, this isn't permanent. Speculating that it may be more than it appears is just that, speculation. If the ban isn't lifted in a few months we can discuss it, but for now we can assume that the ban is only temporary.

As for the effects it has had in the past 12 hours, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The ban seems to have largely been enacted. The only thing extra is all of the protestors, but thus far we've had truckloads of sobbing liberals protesting everything Trump does (including just coming into office), so it's not really anything out of the ordinary.

What I'm most confused about is why this is blowing up now. The Obama administration placed a 6 month ban on immigration from Iraq in 2011, but nobody was calling out violations of freedoms or human rights then.

EDIT: Plus I'm sure our glorious Prime Minister will accept all the refugees the US doesn't.

On the contrary, the US ban is effecting dual US citizens whom happen to be born in one of those 7 countries.
Are you meaning to say that dual nationals aren't real US citizens? I'm not sure which news outlet you've been listening to.
At YVR today we had at least 100 or so people who are dual citizens, mostly Iranian and Syrian Americans who have been now stranded due to this executive order. They are not able to return. This also effects people travelling through on connecting flights. This is much more than just a temporary ban from a single country ( as Obama did with Iraqi refugees in 2011). What Trump has done is create an international disaster in the last 48hrs. It's creating massive travel backlogs at every Intl. Airport around the world, slowing trade between the US/ Canadian and Mexico borders and pissing people off.

If this was truly a move about security then please explain why wasn't Egypt and Saudi Arabia on the list on banned countries? --> short answer.. Trump does business in those countries.


Direct quote from the state dept. this morning.

Quote:
If you are an Iranian national outside of the U.S. with a valid U.S. visa, you will not be able to enter the United States.

Iranian nationals who are also citizens of a 3rd country (e.g. Canada) will still be barred from entering the United States, according to the State Department.

U.S. permanent resident aliens (green card holders) from Iran who are outside of the United States will be barred from reentry, according to a Department of Homeland Security spokesperson.

Green card holders must apply for a case-by-case exemption from the Department of Homeland Security to be allowed reentry to the United States.
U.S. citizens will not be directly affected by the ban.

There is nothing to indicate that persons on valid visas inside the United States will be expelled so long as they do not leave the country and have a legal basis for remaining in the U.S.
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:19 AM #185
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
On the contrary, the US ban is effecting dual US citizens whom happen to be born in one of those 7 countries.
I'm sure it is, but they are not barred from entering the country. You quoted the state dept. yourself: "U.S. citizens will not be directly affected by the ban."

If the airlines don't want to fly them into the country due to the confusion, then that's the airline's choice. The bottom line still stands: the ban does not bar U.S. citizens (regardless of other citizenships) from entering the country. There are other ways into the U.S. besides airliner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
Are you meaning to say that dual nationals aren't real US citizens? I'm not sure which news outlet you've been listening to.
Well I certainly hope dual nationals are considered real citizens, considering that I am one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
At YVR today we had at least 100 or so people who are dual citizens, mostly Iranian and Syrian Americans who have been now stranded due to this executive order. They are not able to return. This also effects people travelling through on connecting flights.
Not sure what that's about. If they're true U.S. citizens and not just on a visa, then they shouldn't be "unable to return". If I had to guess, it's likely the airlines not wanting to get caught up in the fray and trying to avoid needing to re-route planes mid-flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
This is much more than just a temporary ban from a single country ( as Obama did with Iraqi refugees in 2011). What Trump has done is create an international disaster in the last 48hrs. It's creating massive travel backlogs at every Intl. Airport around the world, slowing trade between the US/ Canadian and Mexico borders and pissing people off.
So this isn't about personal freedoms or liberties, but rather the fact that it disrupts things? I'm pretty sure that the Trump administration knew that was going to happen. And again, this isn't a permanent ban. I don't know why people keep talking about it like it's going to throw a permanent wrench in things forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
If this was truly a move about security then please explain why wasn't Egypt and Saudi Arabia on the list on banned countries? --> short answer.. Trump does business in those countries.
Lol, this one's easy. In late 2015 and early 2016 President Obama signed a law placing restrictions on travelers from the exact same seven countries that are affected by the ban. Obama did this in response to the "growing threat from foreign terrorist fighters."

Trump has severed all official ties with his companies. And I'll keep saying this: The ban is not permanent. Do you really think that Trump would do something so transparently asinine as to exempt only the countries that his former companies make money from just so that they could continue making money for the few months that the ban is in place? If so, I'm afraid you've drank the Kool-Aid my friend.

Here's a quote from the DHS that I think sums up this entire fiasco nicely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Department of Homeland Security
"No foreign national in a foreign land, without ties to the United States, has any unfettered right to demand entry into the United States or to demand immigration benefits in the United States."
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:13 PM #186
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Post Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

H2Oxide, I am afraid you over simplified what my underlying message was.
Quote:
So this isn't about personal freedoms or liberties, but rather the fact that it disrupts things? I'm pretty sure that the Trump administration knew that was going to happen. And again, this isn't a permanent ban. I don't know why people keep talking about it like it's going to throw a permanent wrench in things forever.
On the contrary it is about personal freedoms and liberties. It seems that your new government doesn't understand its impact globally nor domestically. Making a sudden turn like this strands potentially millions of people as well as the other impacts we are seeing play out,
including a surge of ultra-right wing nationalism in our country, brought on by/ encouraged by events south of us.

Quebec City mosque shooting: 6 dead, 8 injured | CTV News


You didn't understand what was written, nor see the world news?
Are you are just going to stand idly by and watch your country disintegrate like this? All freedom loving Americans should be outraged by this recent turn of events!


Just a quick recap of Martin Niemöller's statement and poem about the Holocaust about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group. :

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:54 PM #187
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Interesting to watch all of this (Trump's antics). It's all smoke and mirrors, you know, right?

1. At the most basic level, Trump is a businessman. Never forget this.
2. He's the man who wrote "The Art of the Deal".
3. All businessmen make deals.

Remember these three points and you'll understand what is going on.

First, it was the wall with Mexico. The media went into a frenzy.
Second, it's immigration. The media switched gears and are now all over this.

Third, ?

Yes, "what is #3"? Wait and see.

So to review.

Multiple issues ........ make for multiple deals .......

He's not stupid ...... he's just about 5 moves ahead of us.

Don't let your emotions get in the way of your thinking.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:25 PM #188
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zathras View Post
Interesting to watch all of this (Trump's antics). It's all smoke and mirrors, you know, right?

1. At the most basic level, Trump is a businessman. Never forget this.
2. He's the man who wrote "The Art of the Deal".
3. All businessmen make deals.

Remember these three points and you'll understand what is going on.

First, it was the wall with Mexico. The media went into a frenzy.
Second, it's immigration. The media switched gears and are now all over this.

Third, ?

Yes, "what is #3"? Wait and see.

So to review.

Multiple issues ........ make for multiple deals .......

He's not stupid ...... he's just about 5 moves ahead of us.

Don't let your emotions get in the way of your thinking.
That's the truth. Honestly, the protests and liberal hysteria around the stuff Trump's doing aren't doing anything to help the situation at all.

While the recent moves are cause for concern, there really isn't anything protests can do at the moment. Getting emotional about it isn't really all that helpful either since we really don't know what the goal of the current bans is or how long they'll stick. As said earlier, such bans aren't new.

If anything the media and public response are definitely a huge distraction. We'll have to see what Trump's real goal with all this is.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:27 PM #189
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

What bothers me the most so far, is that CBP held people in secondary screening for hours upon hours, without access to legal representation, and in direct violation of the orders of a federal judge. Yet not one CBP official will likely face any consequences.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:03 PM #190
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Angry Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinitusEquitas View Post
What bothers me the most so far, is that CBP held people in secondary screening for hours upon hours, without access to legal representation, and in direct violation of the orders of a federal judge. Yet not one CBP official will likely face any consequences.
Exactly what caused CBSA and VPD officers to start a major yelling match at YVR yesterday with US customs Officers. They were detaining/harassing dual citizens ( including a few dual citizen Canadians) without any legal representation present.
People dismissing how out of control this "simple ban is" need to really understand the full impact of what has just occurred.

This why I was so upset about what I saw at the airport yesterday. Total utter chaos.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:44 PM #191
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
H2Oxide, I am afraid you over simplified what my underlying message was.

On the contrary it is about personal freedoms and liberties. It seems that your new government doesn't understand its impact globally nor domestically. Making a sudden turn like this strands potentially millions of people as well as the other impacts we are seeing play out, including a surge of ultra-right wing nationalism in our country, brought on by/ encouraged by events south of us.
Alright, who's personal freedoms and liberties then? Visa holders/refugees, or American citizens? How are different freedoms being violated now vs. in 2011?

And I'd hardly call a single attack "a surge of ultra-right wing nationalism." The minute Canada as a whole starts doing anything even remotely nationalistic I'll eat my hat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
You didn't understand what was written, nor see the world news?
Are you are just going to stand idly by and watch your country disintegrate like this? All freedom loving Americans should be outraged by this recent turn of events!
What do you mean by this? I didn't understand what was written where? By whom? If you mean the executive order itself, I have read and understood it in its entirety. Please clarify. As for world news, the only reverberations I've seen stem from confusion (mostly at airports). Again, if you want to discuss a specific event please clarify; you can't just say "haven't you seen the world news?" and expect me to know what you're talking about. My work load doesn't allow me to comb through every single news story from every country, unfortunately.

And why should we be outraged? America's duty is to her own people first. US citizens have not had any restrictions placed on them. America has no duty to ensure the safety or well-being of foreign nationals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seoul_lasers View Post
Just a quick recap of Martin Niemöller's statement and poem about the Holocaust about the cowardice of German intellectuals following the Nazis' rise to power and subsequent purging of their chosen targets, group after group. :
What relevance does this have? No group is being persecuted...?
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:27 AM #192
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Default Re: Donald Trump Inauguration

Quote:
There is nothing to indicate that persons on valid visas inside the United States will be expelled so long as they do not leave the country and have a legal basis for remaining in the U.S.
So that basically locks them in the US, with the only option to travel outside the country to never return.

Practical thing would be for example someone that (also) has the syrian nationality would now be unable to go on a holiday to mexico since they could not return from that. Pretty crazy if you ask me.


I think this will hurt parts of the american economy as it even applies to transit passengers, for example between europe and middle or south america. Many flight options between, for example, western europe and mexico, peru, brasil, argentina etc have a stopover in the US. There are a lot of western european citizens with dual citizenships that include one from the middle east.

American airline companies will take a big hit from this. Already many people avoid stopovers in the us due to the extreme security hassle involved, and if that gets even worse european travellers are likely to totally avoid the us.

For example, it is already somewhat preferable to fly to mexico from northern europe taking a stopover in canada (or spain) compared to connecting through the us.

If you have a long stopover and want to spend a night or just go into town, canada is much better: no visa to pay for or even pre-arrange, just show your passport and walk in. Stopover in montreal or toronto - no problemo. Stopover in new york? apply for an efsa, pay for that, tsa harrassing you, forget it.

This could be good news for mexico as well though: many flights from europe to south america now have layovers in cities like atlanta, but that will be no more. Next hub: cancun or mexico city, or even panama at the moment.
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