The REAL Kryton GB round #3. Taking payments now.

jayrob · Dec 14, 2010

I took a look at a couple of these barrels that Ken sent me...

At first, I found them workable. The head screwed on a little 'rough', but it did screw on. And besides, once it's on, it stays there until you need to replace your diode...

But while I was on the phone with Ken, I put him on speaker and was taking the head on and off one of the barrels explaining to Ken that it goes on rough, but it still goes on by hand...

... and then it got stuck while I was explaining that! I couldn't get it off by hand.

So I'm guessing that there may be just a very small chip getting in between the threads, and that is all it takes to 'bind'. And I would guess that it is an intermittent problem...

This is of course just my opinion.

But I do not think that it is a very big problem. Ken told me that he already had a die ordered to chase the threads.

Hopefully it will fit, because I'm sure these are custom sized threads. But I don't think it needs a die, but just a close inspection, and to clean the threads of any small debris...

In any case, I think it can be worked out. It's not a huge problem...

LazyBeam · Dec 14, 2010

If they are "custom threads" wouldn't it be easier to chuck them up in a lathe, set the feedrate, and just chase a few thousandths off the pitch diameter with a sharp single point tool? Plus with a sharp new bit you could turn the chuck by hand power so as being guarunteed not to mess up the shoulder or cross thread it.

Hell, how many barrels are there and what is the thread pitch? I could do these in my basement if the thread pitch isn't too exotic.

Pontiacg5 · Dec 14, 2010

Are the barrels Ken sent you the ones he already chased with a tap?

To rethread a single point like that you would have to get the thread repositioned in the lathe exactly as it was originally. It's not practically possible.

A die is not going to fix anything, that is only going to tear the threads up and make the problem worse. I converted the metric thread (M20x1.25) to a standard lead because all of my machines are set to run standard. Therefore a M20x1.25 die should fit, but it's only going to make a mess.

If you think the problem is caused by a chip, then the best solution would be to get rid of the chip. I don't think it's a chip though, because some of the hosts I threaded together in the video were pretty dirty and they still went together just fine. Hitting the burr on the threads with a scotchbright pad might help, but I didn't see that burr causing any problems at all.

I'm warning you now though, chasing aluminum threads like that with a die is only going to make them worse. It will gouge and strip the threads to no end. There's really only two or three entire threads there, not a lot of room for error...

rpaloalto · Dec 14, 2010

This is starting to look really bad for all of us. KEN get in here and talk to us.
Has the die you ordered last month showed up yet???

:cryyy:

jayrob · Dec 14, 2010

Pontiacg5 said:
Are the barrels Ken sent you the ones he already chased with a tap?

I didn't ask, but I would think that he sent me barrels that were not tampered with in any way. Except one was polished, and one was not. I already sent them back today though. So I don't have them to examine any longer.

Once again, I don't think it's a problem. I think maybe Ken's just worried that a couple of people will get a 'sticky' one. But I would guess that if you get one like that, it should be relatively easy to find the little burr or chip and clean it.

The key is, if you feel it binding, then don't force it. Because that's how it can get stuck. Instead, take it off, and clean the threads.

LazyBeam · Dec 14, 2010

Pontiacg5 said:
To rethread a single point like that you would have to get the thread repositioned in the lathe exactly as it was originally. It's not practically possible.

Sure it is. I've done it loads of times with threads as small as 20tpi. Remember, I'm talking about a normal lathe here... not CNC. Just place the barrel in the chuck and barely tighten the jaws. Don't secrue the chuck and tighten it just yet - you want the part to be able to rotate a bit. Lock in the appropriate gears/lead to get the proper thread pitch. Bring your single point over to the part and adjust it approximately the pitch diameter. Because the part is not tightly secured in the chuck you can rotate it so you can time the helix/pitch of the threads to the single point bit.

Will it be dead-nuts precise? No. But it will easily be within a few thousandths if not still within a class 3 spec. Probably only takes about 3 minutes to manually align the thread pitch to the leadscrew. And because you're only looking at removing a few thou to help with clearance, you can probably just hand feed the lathe chuck to chase the few threads that are there.

Pontiacg5 said:
I'm warning you now though, chasing aluminum threads like that with a die is only going to make them worse. It will gouge and strip the threads to no end. There's really only two or three entire threads there, not a lot of room for error...

Correct. With aluminum unless the die is very sharp, well oiled, and aligned perfectly you run a serious risk of mucking up the threads. At minimum, if you want to try, look for a 6 flute tool and try to align with a threading jig or lathe tailstock.

Kenom · Dec 15, 2010

sorry folks, I've been a bit busy with legal matters lately to follow up on this thread and answer any questions regarding the barrels. There are a lot of issues and questions recently in this thread and I will try to address them all.

1. The beasts will still be done. However since pontiac is feeling personally attacked in this ordeal, (not once have I outright blamed anyone for anything) I will have to go with a different machine shop. Given the hostility, I would do so anyway. I just plain don't do conflict.

2. if you want to swap out your beast order for some grooves, email me and we'll work something out.

3. I usually get my taxes around the middle of january and will have the money then to finalize all the things outstanding.

4 its been my experience that chasing threads with the taps I have, have not resulted in damaged threads. those of you from the second run know that I had to chase every single thread for the lenses and they were perfectly fine when I was done. the tap I ordered to chase the threads in the barrel section of the grooves fit smoothly all the way to the bottom and did NOT remove any material. The threads there are fine. I did not order a die to chase the heads as I believed at the time that it was in the barrel. I have since ordered the die to chase the threads on the head and it will arrive on the 17th of this month. I will TEST this on one barrel and see what it does. from there I will progress as I see will provide me with the best results. if that means tapping each one or hitting them with a die, I will do so. If I have to leave them as-is and just anodize them as-is, then that is what will be done but you can rest assured that you will get a functional product just as you ordered.

Now, Pontiac: I am not attacking you. I have only made one remark about the changes made to the fins and that is the only thing. You indicated you followed the designs that I sent you and I believe that.. If the changes made were in accordance with the designs sent to you, then it is my fault and not yours. I have not specified that you made any errors either with the threads. I have just informed everyone that I have run into issues. I sent jayrob a polished and unpolished barrel so that he could see exactly what I am seeing and that is that there is NOT a issue that is so big that it cannot be resolved. the barrels are fine, and whatever issues I have with them will be resolved. so stop attacking me and trying to get everyone in a fit. Look back at everything and put it back into the perspective that it should be and you'll see that there has been no accusations made.

daguin · Dec 15, 2010

Breathe easy!

I now have barrels in my possession from both Kenom AND Pontiac. They are ALL fine.

I do not know what happened to the barrel that Kenom had a problem with. Perhaps it is indeed simply a loose "chip" that has gotten lodged in the threading. Making sure that everything is clean, should eliminate this potential. However, ALL of mine work as intended

The threading in the head is "secure." It does require "gentle" effort to screw it together. IMNHO that is a GOOD thing. Having a head piece come loose while focusing the laser, or other time when not intended, would be a BIG problem. It is not so tight that it is a problem. Remember, I am a professor. I talk for a living. I do NOT have the grip strength of a machinist (or anyone that works for a living for that matter). If I can do it easily, virtually anyone can.

The threading on the head piece and the tail piece are DIFFERENT. The pieces are NOT (and should not be) interchangeable. I cannot imagine why anyone would want them to be interchangeable anyway.

We just need to get Kenom working on the anodizing of them.

Peace,
dave

rpaloalto · Dec 15, 2010

Thanks for the update kenom

Dave I'm glad you got your krytons and that they all work. I'm tempted to just ask ken to send me my kryton, as is. Sure I would get it now, but I have been waiting 6 months for a blue anodized one:thinking:

daguin · Dec 15, 2010

rpaloalto said:
Thanks for the update kenom

Dave I'm glad you got your krytons and that they all work. I'm tempted to just ask ken to send me my kryton, as is. Sure I would get it now, but I have been waiting 6 months for a blue anodized one:thinking:

Yeah. Mine are not for personal use, so it really didn't matter. They were just going to be clear anyway. I haven't decided if I am going to bother with polishing them or not. I like the way bare, machined aluminum looks

I just got hold of an old Kryton "Smooth."

It has some damage to the head, but I think I can sand it out

Peace,
dave

icecruncher · Dec 18, 2010

Kenom said:
1. The beasts will still be done. However since pontiac is feeling personally attacked in this ordeal, (not once have I outright blamed anyone for anything) I will have to go with a different machine shop. Given the hostility, I would do so anyway. I just plain don't do conflict.

Thanks for this update. I'll hold for the beasts. Can't hardly wait. If the grooves are the same quality as the last generation of these and likewise with the beasts. Then I'm quite happy with that.

Pontiacg5 · Dec 18, 2010

Kenom said:
sorry folks, I've been a bit busy with legal matters lately to follow up on this thread and answer any questions regarding the barrels. There are a lot of issues and questions recently in this thread and I will try to address them all.

1. The beasts will still be done. However since pontiac is feeling personally attacked in this ordeal, (not once have I outright blamed anyone for anything) I will have to go with a different machine shop. Given the hostility, I would do so anyway. I just plain don't do conflict.

2. if you want to swap out your beast order for some grooves, email me and we'll work something out.

3. I usually get my taxes around the middle of january and will have the money then to finalize all the things outstanding.

4 its been my experience that chasing threads with the taps I have, have not resulted in damaged threads. those of you from the second run know that I had to chase every single thread for the lenses and they were perfectly fine when I was done. the tap I ordered to chase the threads in the barrel section of the grooves fit smoothly all the way to the bottom and did NOT remove any material. The threads there are fine. I did not order a die to chase the heads as I believed at the time that it was in the barrel. I have since ordered the die to chase the threads on the head and it will arrive on the 17th of this month. I will TEST this on one barrel and see what it does. from there I will progress as I see will provide me with the best results. if that means tapping each one or hitting them with a die, I will do so. If I have to leave them as-is and just anodize them as-is, then that is what will be done but you can rest assured that you will get a functional product just as you ordered.

Now, Pontiac: I am not attacking you. I have only made one remark about the changes made to the fins and that is the only thing. You indicated you followed the designs that I sent you and I believe that.. If the changes made were in accordance with the designs sent to you, then it is my fault and not yours. I have not specified that you made any errors either with the threads. I have just informed everyone that I have run into issues. I sent jayrob a polished and unpolished barrel so that he could see exactly what I am seeing and that is that there is NOT a issue that is so big that it cannot be resolved. the barrels are fine, and whatever issues I have with them will be resolved. so stop attacking me and trying to get everyone in a fit. Look back at everything and put it back into the perspective that it should be and you'll see that there has been no accusations made.

I'm pretty sure that chasing the threads on the head with a die is not going to work. You'll be trying to remove a lot more material since I cut the threads so shallow and since the threads are pretty coarse there's not going to be a lot of engagement between the die and threads before the die starts cutting. If you can't provide some constant steady pressure the die will just slip and eat through what threads it already engaged with. A tap is different since they are tapered, there should be a lot more engagement to keep the tap from just spinning and chewing threads unlike a die. I know dies are usually tapered, but nowhere near as much as a tap is.
I still suggest hitting the burrs on the leading edges of the threads with a scotchbrite pad, especially if the issue is now intermittent.

I still don't buy your claim of not attacking me or my work, especially when you post things like...

- "I can't believe that these left your hands without you having seen how difficult it is to thread these heads if you can get them to go."

Really? Now it seems that the heads will thread together but they get stuck sometime. So we went from not threading at all, to only threading sometimes. Either way, I would call that quote specifying "that made any errors either with the threads."

- "I donno what to say other than the last batches I got from a different cnc shop worked smoothly with no issues directly from them so mikes argument that touch up needs to be done is not relevant in this case or they did the touch up before giving them to me."

The last shops did the touch up for you? Then why exactly did you have to chase all of the threads with a tap? I'd consider that a slight "touch up"

- "since the threads were cut tight on purpose the heat produced by polishing is making it so they no longer thread."

Now the polishing is causing the threads to bind? I thought they didn't thread together at all when you got them? Now the polished and unpolished ones Jayrob tested work fine?

I also don't know why you keep referring to me as a machine shop, I thought I made it pretty clear from the get-go that I was going to do all the work for these barrels after hours on my own time, as an individual, to help get the costs down. The shop I work for had nothing to do with these things. The only thing you paid for on these barrels is for renting the machines, the aluminum, and the tooling I didn't already have. I worked after hours on weekends and nights to make these things, all off the clock as a favor to you and so I could have some part in the ever popular Groove. I never guessed it would end this way though...

Either way, I'll leave this thread with this post and let everyone draw their own conclusions. I hope everything turns out in the end. If anyone needs me, just PM me.

Dave, I'm glad to hear you got those Grooves and that they all work fine for you!

532 with Envy · Dec 28, 2010

Just a bump up to the top of GB...
:bumpit:
Trying to keep it alive!

SMIDSY · Dec 28, 2010

Im still confused here.... does anyone have any news? 2 trusted members are at each other's throats..... thats all I see.....

532 with Envy · Dec 28, 2010

The only news from Kenom's side was on the 15th.
Granted most people are busy with the holidays, hopefully we will get our Grooves come the new year!

AJ_Dual · Jan 1, 2011

Groovy bump for 2011!

The REAL Kryton GB round #3. Taking payments now.

jayrob

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