Group Buy: Machined Aluminium Laser Hosts

daguin · Feb 24, 2009

Spoz said:
I'm not sure this is covered by intellectual property rights as the design is so vague. As I said, I am not trying to make money, I just want some nice hosts.
Is there anyone interested or not?

You want to try to make a more "legal" case by definition?

You take Kenom's product, duplicate it, and then offer them for sale. If you want to make your own or hire someone to make one for you for personal use, no problem. As soon as you offer them for sale, you are stealing from Kenom. The people that buy them from you will not be buying them from the man who created them. You are "profiting" by obtaining a lower price via the greater number of barrels.

Kenom worked his ass off and risked a great amount of money to develop this idea. You just came in and stole it from him. There may be enough people in the forum to allow you to get enough buyers. However, that does not make it right.

dave

691175002 · Feb 24, 2009

I don't think it is fair to say that Kenom has dibs on an idea as general as organizing a buy of custom hosts from a machining company. If he stole Kenom's exact design it would be different, but I see nothing wrong here.

potatorage · Feb 25, 2009

Well, this goes back to the milos and the jake21 blu ray box idea-- I remember back when milos had box style blurays, and jake made "similar" lasers and sold them, basically the same idea-- nothing wrong, but you are taking an idea from someone-- and also charging a bit too much also

Spoz · Feb 25, 2009

For what it's worth, I actually had this idea long before I joined the forum and saw Kenoms host. I even had aluminium purchased to machine on a friends lathe until I realised it couldn't handle a job like this.

Once again, the reason I don't see this as being a problem is because I'm not making money from it and since Kenom isn't selling krytons at the moment, this isn't detracting from his business.

ANYWAY.

I'm starting to think I might order enough to bring the price down, maybe revise the design a bit to include a switch (I like side mounted switches) and look into anodising them myself. I suppose I could sell the extra on ebay.

But I still need an indication of interest here!

daguin · Feb 25, 2009

These "legalistic" arguments are silly. This is not a court of law. This is an association of like minded hobbyists. Here are his own words showing he took the idea from Kenom and is doing it to get a lower price. That amounts to theft of an intellectual property for profit. If we don't watch out for each other's work, who will? If you do not see anything wrong with this, then I hope you never have an original idea, writing, or creation. You will have no basis upon which to defend your property.

Kenom has neither abandoned this creation nor given this person permission to use it. He has already posted his intention to make another run of this barrel and at least two more. This is the theft of an idea for profit.

dave

Spoz said:
[quote author=pullbangdead link=1235473350/0#1 date=1235493656]So, what's the difference between this and a kryton smooth, or the newer kryton groove?

Nothing, just that these are available at the moment whereas the Krytons (to my knowledge) are not.

john lawson said:
I can't buy these I already renamed all my kids KENOM my Daughter is pissed

??? Am I doing something wrong by offering these here? I am not doing this to make money, I just want some hosts for myself and I can't afford to produce only two at $200 a piece.[/quote]

Spoz · Feb 25, 2009

This is not kenoms creation. This is as much his intellectual property as it is of the guy who designed the leadlight case.

It is a generic case for combining laser diodes and batteries. You can quote me all you like, but the fact of the matter is I was implying that the principle of operation is the same.

To quote yourself, "This is an association of likeminded hobbyists". I agree. I am in this for the hobby and I find it insulting that you are attacking me for what I'm trying to do.

If there is no interest in this I will probably be ordering them anyway and selling completed lasers on ebay, as I want these hosts for my own use. If anyone wants to be part of the order this is your last chance, I'm starting to regret posting this thread at all.

potatorage · Feb 25, 2009

As I said, your prices are excessive. If kenom is able to create these with anodizing and extras for 50, then what interest would you bring? A barrel at 60 will bring little interest.

daguin · Feb 25, 2009

Spoz said:
This is not kenoms creation. This is as much his intellectual property as it is of the guy who designed the leadlight case.
It is a generic case for combining laser diodes and batteries. You can quote me all you like, but the fact of the matter is I was implying that the principle of operation is the same.
To quote yourself, "This is an association of likeminded hobbyists". I agree. I am in this for the hobby and I find it insulting that you are attacking me for what I'm trying to do.
If there is no interest in this I will probably be ordering them anyway and selling completed lasers on ebay, as I want these hosts for my own use. If anyone wants to be part of the order this is your last chance, I'm starting to regret posting this thread at all.

Whether you are insulted or not matters little to me. I am not attacking you. I am defending Kenom. However, that matters not. The facts remain the same. I simply hope that the more responsible members of this community will refrain from supporting you and wait for Kenom to get the next GB together.

I am done

dave

691175002 · Feb 25, 2009

In my opinion this is more like someone writing a book. The value isn't in the concept, its in the design and execution.

I see nothing wrong with someone selling hosts for lasers. They are similar insofar as that they are both machined and cylindrical, but the only way to produce custom hosts is to have them machined and the only sensible shape for a host is cylindrical.

I see plenty of people selling drivers and finished builds for actual profit. He has already stated he is only doing this because he cannot afford to pay 200$ per host for his own use, and is not doing this intending to make money himself.

Hoping that people with my point of view never have any original ideas is a little harsh; I assure you I would be up in arms had he posted a sketch of the kryton groove, but I place more value on successfully designing a host (And I would say spoz's button-less host has essentially failed that point) and getting it manufactured than thinking up of the idea to group buy machined hosts.

Spoz · Feb 25, 2009

Do you think I haven't done any work on this myself? Do you think I havent spent hours with a micrometer and a CAD program open playing with the design? Or that I haven't spent hours in time visiting and talking to machinists? Is that what the real issue is? I really don't understand.

Just because he was the first to order a group buy of hosts, then nobody else is ever allowed to?

I was prepared to work with the board members on this and try to come up with something that people would find useful but it appears that effort is wasted here.

You can go back to living in your little box now, I give up too.

potatorage · Feb 25, 2009

Spoz said:
Do you think I haven't done any work on this myself? Do you think I havent spent hours with a micrometer and a CAD program open playing with the design? Or that I haven't spent hours in time visiting and talking to machinists? Is that what the real issue is? I really don't understand.

Just because he was the first to order a group buy of hosts, then nobody else is ever allowed to?

I was prepared to work with the board members on this and try to come up with something that people would find useful but it appears that effort is wasted here.

You can go back to living in your little box now, I give up too.

Kenom does a good job making these, and provides quality and features at a good price. You are trying to sell these for more, while offering less... It is also using an idea VERY similar to his, It would be better if you came up with a unique design... Sometimes you can not compete with others...

lasersbee · Feb 25, 2009

[ch12290 said:
]
Kenom does a good job making these, and provides quality and features at a good price. [highlight]You are trying to sell these for more, while offering less... [/highlight]It is also using an idea VERY similar to his, It would be better if you came up with a unique design... Sometimes you can not compete with others...

Wouldn't that alone... be a deal killer...
If so... why the Hub-Bub.... :

How about making the barrel square...

Competition is always good for the consumer...

People always stick to a known trusted product...

Jerry

frogger · Feb 25, 2009

The only reason Kenom is able to get these so much cheaper with the extras is the fact that he takes about 100 orders at a time IIRC. ~~Day~~ Spoz is taking 10.

And dave, just because kenom manufactured a custom host and sold it, that makes him the only one with the rights to do so?
I don't see this host as a blatant rip off of kenom's. The head in ~~Day~~S poz's design has a removable insert and he was talking about a side switch.

~~Day~~ Spoz is in no way trying to make a huge group buy out of this, he was making two for himself and decided to include a couple other to get the price down.

Kenom · Feb 25, 2009

Wow, I kind of blew this off when I first saw it as insulting by blatantly taking my original design as stated in the first post "or would you rather it be like the Kryton host, where the diode fits directly into the aluminium and the lense screws in the other side? " I'm glad to see everyone coming to my defense.

I will agree that this design while unique to my barrels isn't so unique to not see this offered in other forms. After all I modeled it from an aixiz module. Daniel on that other forum is offering heatsinks with this very thing that can then be put into a flashlight. Those things are unique. Have thier own special uses and were not copy's. The host you posted above as long as your not using the direct diode press in the head, is not a copy. It's a host with a hole for a aixiz module and don't take offense to that. However I DO take offense to the "but if you dont' like the hole for the aixiz module approach, lets just blatantly reproduce Ken's work" I do find incredibly insulting. It's been explained to you before by dave and a few others and I'm not going to take the time to explain to you why it is.

Dave being an communications professor has to deal with Plagarism all the time and stealing someone elses work. In the definition of plagarism even the THOUGHT that is stolen is plagarism. If you thought of it yourself, fine. However you've clearly indicated that the direct diode fit IS my idea.

Go ahead and make the aixiz fitting host. I've no issues with that at all. You can bet your butt though that if you reproduce the Kryton, you will get the emnity of this forum. Maybe a few sales, but certainly not worth the repercussions.

Had you wanted to reproduce my Krytons even the first generation, Asking to get permission would be the best approach.

Ieon · Mar 1, 2009

Kenom said:
Wow, I kind of blew this off when I first saw it as insulting by blatantly taking my original design as stated in the first post "or would you rather it be like the Kryton host, where the diode fits directly into the aluminium and the lense screws in the other side? " I'm glad to see everyone coming to my defense.

I will agree that this design while unique to my barrels isn't so unique to not see this offered in other forms. After all I modeled it from an aixiz module. Daniel on that other forum is offering heatsinks with this very thing that can then be put into a flashlight. Those things are unique. Have thier own special uses and were not copy's. The host you posted above as long as your not using the direct diode press in the head, is not a copy. It's a host with a hole for a aixiz module and don't take offense to that. However I DO take offense to the "but if you dont' like the hole for the aixiz module approach, lets just blatantly reproduce Ken's work" I do find incredibly insulting. It's been explained to you before by dave and a few others and I'm not going to take the time to explain to you why it is.

Dave being an communications professor has to deal with Plagarism all the time and stealing someone elses work. In the definition of plagarism even the THOUGHT that is stolen is plagarism. If you thought of it yourself, fine. However you've clearly indicated that the direct diode fit IS my idea.

Go ahead and make the aixiz fitting host. I've no issues with that at all. You can bet your butt though that if you reproduce the Kryton, you will get the emnity of this forum. Maybe a few sales, but certainly not worth the repercussions.

Had you wanted to reproduce my Krytons even the first generation, Asking to get permission would be the best approach.

Give the kid a go kenom, not like you copyrighted it or anything and he never swore at you or told you that copying your work is very easy.

If he gets some takers so be it. Not like its going to effect you anyways.

jayrob · Mar 1, 2009

It's just the point of it...

Not cool to copy somebody else's design. It is different if the person asked first and got an 'ok'.

It's just an unwritten rule. Like Ken said, it will just make the person look bad in the long run.

But if they announced their product with something like, 'Hey I talked to Kenom first and I will be offering...' Then people will respect that approach...
Jay

Group Buy: Machined Aluminium Laser Hosts

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