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Old 09-01-2008, 10:03 AM #321
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Right. *I was looking at some time ago, using some of these lenses from the sleds to change that cone into a tighter focused beam right ON TOP of the laser diode. *Then the aixiz nut will have an opportunity to have all that light focused into the lens and theoretically increase it's overall power. *Now that's not taking into account that that first lens SIGNIFICANTLY changed the effect the aixiz lens had and was unable to bring the beam to even remotely colimated laser beam. *When I get into physics in college (eventually) I'll have a bit more understanding on how to do what I'm thinking a little better.

In the meantime, obviously this is the best solution. *Getting lenses that fit right into our aixiz nuts is the only other option I see at this point.

Another Idea I've been toying with is by using a smaller laser diode module (aixiz makes some smaller) and utilizing the probably same optics (red coated) that come with the laser module, is reducing the overall size of the lens (colimator) going to affect beam diameter and if so, how? *I'm hoping to get a <2mm beam, and since the bluray diodes don't require much in the way of heatsinking it means using a smaller host with a better beam.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:11 AM #322
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger
How much are these going to probably end up costing each? *I don't want to commit too quite a few and then have to back out or break the bank..
I'm trying to find that out right now. Now these are aspherics, but the price probably won't be higher than it was originally intended to be. Because of so many orders, it could even be less.

But i need to know if the lenses work in the AixiZ lens nuts first, because this influences the total price as well.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:19 AM #323
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenom
Another Idea I've been toying with is by using a smaller laser diode module (aixiz makes some smaller) and utilizing the probably same optics (red coated) that come with the laser module, is reducing the overall size of the lens (colimator) going to affect beam diameter and if so, how? *I'm hoping to get a <2mm beam, and since the bluray diodes don't require much in the way of heatsinking it means using a smaller host with a better beam.
If it's the same optics, the beam diameter will be the same.
If the lens should have the same FL but be smaller, the beam would be thinner, but at the cost of a lower power.

Basically, if the lens captures all of the light, the beam diameter will depend on the distance at which the lens sits from the lens - the diameter of the light cone at that point. The distance depends on the FL.
If the lens doesn't capture all of the light, the beam diameter will depend on the effective diameter of the lens itself.


The AixiZ acrylic lens for example, doesn't capture all of the beam, so the diameter depends on the lens. This is why the diameter at the lens doesn't increase when you focus for burning, but the power decreases.

If you screw the lens in deeper, the power increases, but the diameter is still the same. At a certain point the lens starts capturing all of the beam, and the power stops increasing, and the diameter at the lens starts getting smaller, the further you screw it in.
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Old 09-01-2008, 10:54 AM #324
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

About that e-bay lens...

I was sure i extracted it once before, but i threw it away. I just extracted it again. You wouldn't believe how flat it is. It's hard to notice it's a lens at all. That's because of the very long FL.

It's not true it has to be 10mm from the diode. The FL is closer to 28mm. And the power of my 202mW (after aixiz lens) blu ray after this lens is 55-60mW. That's because everything goes around it.

The beam is perfectly round, yes, but i explained why before. And since it captures only the middle most part of the light cone, the beam diameter depends on the lens itself, so it's huge. It's interesting, but it's useless for pointers. They need another lens to create a low divergence beam first - you can for example use the AixiZ lens to create a slowly diverging beam, and then use this lens at just the right distance, and end up with a thinner but parallel beam. The power would of course be lower than just with the AixiZ lens, but still WAY higher, than just with the flat lens.


Even if the lens on ebay was from a different sled and had a 10mm FL, the results would be similar. The power would be slightly higher, but it would still only be a part of the diode output.



EDIT: I just tested that lens with a more careful setup, using the AixiZ lens to create a beam of low divergence, and then this lens after it. It creates a thin beam, but it has the same distortions around as my spherical lenses.

You know... I have a bunch of expensive 405nm AR coated glass lenses, that do "work" in the AixiZ lens nuts. They actually increase the power and create a perfectly round thin beam but with distortions around. I could put them on ebay and claim they have magical powers. I could simply leave out the distortions part. But i would feel like a scammer..

It really bothers me to see people use ideas they find on this forum to make money off of partial truths (or even complete lies in some cases), using stuff they would otherwise have to throw away. People who buy this stuff usually don't understand how it all works, and trust whatever the seller says. It's just wrong.
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:24 AM #325
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ  FEELER

IgorT... I haven't checked out this topic in a wile. How are we looking on these 405nm AR coated lenses?

BTW; what are you using to get 202mW?
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Old 09-06-2008, 06:37 AM #326
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenom
Right. *I was looking at some time ago, using some of these lenses from the sleds to change that cone into a tighter focused beam right ON TOP of the laser diode. *Then the aixiz nut will have an opportunity to have all that light focused into the lens and theoretically increase it's overall power. *Now that's not taking into account that that first lens SIGNIFICANTLY changed the effect the aixiz lens had and was unable to bring the beam to even remotely colimated laser beam. *When I get into physics in college (eventually) I'll have a bit more understanding on how to do what I'm thinking a little better.

In the meantime, obviously this is the best solution. *Getting lenses that fit right into our aixiz nuts is the only other option I see at this point.

Another Idea I've been toying with is by using a smaller laser diode module (aixiz makes some smaller) and utilizing the probably same optics (red coated) that come with the laser module, is reducing the overall size of the lens (colimator) going to affect beam diameter and if so, how? *I'm hoping to get a <2mm beam, and since the bluray diodes don't require much in the way of heatsinking it means using a smaller host with a better beam.
I succeeded in my plan. *I was able to get a 2.5mm beam with a smaller module. *now obviously I'm losing power but it's just an example used by wicked lasers. *You can get a powerful green laser with crappy beam specs or you can get a lower powered one with much better beam specs. *This is exactly the same thing. *I like how teenie this beam is. *Gooey measured his aixiz and it was a 4.5mm at it's smallest with the rectangular beam while my smaller module is 2.5mm at it's smallest. *I'm STOKED!!
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:17 PM #327
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Igor asked me to let you guys know he may not be able to answer questions quickly right now, so please be patient
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:54 PM #328
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcstr
Igor asked me to let you guys know he may not be able to answer questions quickly right now, so please be patient *
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:54 AM #329
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Put me down for 1x of the 405nm

From what i read i beleive they just swap right into the aixiZ housing, Right?
If thats the case (and the lense in the aixiZ housing is easy to remove) im in.
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:07 AM #330
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Do you have the exact specs you sent out to the lens fabrication facility?

I could swing them by some of our scientists and engineers to get their opinion. We work with narrow wavelength deep UV optics a lot. we do vacuum PLD (pulsed laser deposition) with 248nm excimer lasers all the time. So Iím sure I could find out quite a bit about the AR coatings and the band pass characteristics of glass (and other material) lenses.

One of the major concerns in PLD is to pass as much energy through the optics as possible so as to achieve faster deposition rates and a "hotter" spot on the material.

Cheers,
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Old 09-07-2008, 08:12 AM #331
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Put me down for 3 of these (405nm).
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:02 AM #332
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Message from Igor, (I'm just relaying):
After putting some pressure on the manufacturer from two different companies from two different countries, pretending it's an international collaboration (well it almost is), finally success. They stopped ignoring me, and i got a reply.


I got two offers, for 40 lenses (40 seems to be MOQ), with either 405nm multilayer R<0.5% OR the 400-700nm broadband coating R<1%.

The price of the 405nm ML is insanely high, as it does not depend on the number of lenses. They would have to load the machine especially for this order, and load it twice at that (because of it being ML?). On the other hand, they are willing to throw the lenses into the broadband coating machine with another order of theirs, at only a fraction of the ML coating price (the broadband is after all the most common coating used, seeing as it covers the entire visible spectrum).

So if we go into this manufacturers option, there will have to be a mini GB first, and it might be better to go with broadband, and lose 0.8% of light (1 - 1.6mW, or 1.6 - 2.96mW, if your name is Daguin ), cos getting this last 0.8% out costs almost 4 times as much as the first 7-8% usually lost as reflections present with un-coated lenses! But at least the same lenses would work for all diode lasers in this range. (Artix will be happy, hopefully others too)


It may be possible to go with 405nm ML with the final order of 200 pieces, if they drop the price of the lens considerably, making room in the price for the more
expensive coating, but the broadband could still end up being much cheaper. I really don't know if it's worth pursuing that for such a small difference.


I have to do some calculating and thinking, and i hope i will be able to come online myself soon (my vision would seem to be improving!.By the time i can read normally again, i will have the options figured out..


Also, since they were ignoring me for so long by now, there is a good chance, i will also get the third manufacturer's lenses, and those will be finalized AND coated FREE samples! So there is also that, and it may actually end up being cheaper, as we wouldn't have to make the mini GB first.

In any case, there is finally progress, and at this point it's just about making the order. I want to see the price breakdown for the full order of 200 pieces, which I'm getting tomorrow, and then i will also know what the prices will look like for the mini and the big GB..
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:18 AM #333
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

0.8% is almost nothing --- that's the outer skin of the beam lost Go with the lesser priced lens first. We can work from there.
You are at a good starting point. GOOoooooooo....... !!

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Old 09-09-2008, 01:23 AM #334
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Quote:
Originally Posted by scopeguy20
Message from Igor, (I'm just relaying):
After putting some pressure on the manufacturer from two different companies from two different countries, pretending it's an international collaboration (well it almost is), finally success. They stopped ignoring me, and i got a reply.


I got two offers, for 40 lenses (40 seems to be MOQ), with either 405nm multilayer R<0.5% OR the 400-700nm broadband coating R<1%.

The price of the 405nm ML is insanely high, as it does not depend on the number of lenses. They would have to load the machine especially for this order, and load it twice at that (because of it being ML?). On the other hand, they are willing to throw the lenses into the broadband coating machine with another order of theirs, at only a fraction of the ML coating price (the broadband is after all the most common coating used, seeing as it covers the entire visible spectrum).

So if we go into this manufacturers option, there will have to be a mini GB first, and it might be better to go with broadband, and lose 0.8% of light (1 - 1.6mW, or 1.6 - 2.96mW, if your name is Daguin ), cos getting this last 0.8% out costs almost 4 times as much as the first 7-8% usually lost as reflections present with un-coated lenses! But at least the same lenses would work for all diode lasers in this range. (Artix will be happy, hopefully others too)


It may be possible to go with 405nm ML with the final order of 200 pieces, if they drop the price of the lens considerably, making room in the price for the more
expensive coating, but the broadband could still end up being much cheaper. I really don't know if it's worth pursuing that for such a small difference.


I have to do some calculating and thinking, and i hope i will be able to come online myself soon (my vision would seem to be improving!.By the time i can read normally again, i will have the options figured out.. *


Also, since they were ignoring me for so long by now, there is a good chance, i will also get the third manufacturer's lenses, and those will be finalized AND coated FREE samples! So there is also that, and it may actually end up being cheaper, as we wouldn't have to make the mini GB first.

In any case, there is finally progress, and at this point it's just about making the order. I want to see the price breakdown for the full order of 200 pieces, which I'm getting tomorrow, and then i will also know what the prices will look like for the mini and the big GB..
Yes I am happy! *;D
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:03 AM #335
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ  FEELER

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Originally Posted by Kenom
[quote author=Kenom link=1212842385/320#320 date=1220263439]Right. I was looking at some time ago, using some of these lenses from the sleds to change that cone into a tighter focused beam right ON TOP of the laser diode. Then the aixiz nut will have an opportunity to have all that light focused into the lens and theoretically increase it's overall power. Now that's not taking into account that that first lens SIGNIFICANTLY changed the effect the aixiz lens had and was unable to bring the beam to even remotely colimated laser beam. When I get into physics in college (eventually) I'll have a bit more understanding on how to do what I'm thinking a little better.

In the meantime, obviously this is the best solution. Getting lenses that fit right into our aixiz nuts is the only other option I see at this point.

Another Idea I've been toying with is by using a smaller laser diode module (aixiz makes some smaller) and utilizing the probably same optics (red coated) that come with the laser module, is reducing the overall size of the lens (colimator) going to affect beam diameter and if so, how? I'm hoping to get a <2mm beam, and since the bluray diodes don't require much in the way of heatsinking it means using a smaller host with a better beam.
I succeeded in my plan. I was able to get a 2.5mm beam with a smaller module. now obviously I'm losing power but it's just an example used by wicked lasers. You can get a powerful green laser with crappy beam specs or you can get a lower powered one with much better beam specs. This is exactly the same thing. I like how teenie this beam is. Gooey measured his aixiz and it was a 4.5mm at it's smallest with the rectangular beam while my smaller module is 2.5mm at it's smallest. I'm STOKED!![/quote]


Stop yelling at me.. lol j/k
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:08 AM #336
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Default Re: 405nm AR glass lenses - fit AixiZ *FEELER

Hey everyone!


I just briefly came online in order to count the number of orders, so i can ask for a final offer for the rest of the lenses.

My vision would seem to be improoving, altho not nearly as fast as it was lost.. At least i don't have to stay in the hospital, but i also can't strain my eyes too much yet (can't read with both eyes open, and i shouldn't be keeping the bad one closed either ).


Anyway, it's like this. Mike, i agree with you, 0.8% is almost nothing, however i had a feeling the lower coating price would only be with the "small" order of 40 - they offered to put them in with another order of theirs, at a fraction of the usual cost.

For the rest of them (220 if not more - i need >40 myself) the price of the coating will be the same, regardless of what we go with, be it broadband or the 405nm optimised MultiLayer, because they will treat it as a separate coating process, meaning two charges of the machine, one per lens side (you were right, Glenn), at a fixed price, independent of the number of lenses.....

Since it will cost the same, i think we should go for the best there is in this case.


Now this is both good news and less good news. I like the idea of getting the most out of it. But it will cost more of course. Luckily this cost will get spread out over the >220 lenses (or whatever amount we order).


So with the >220 pieces, the lenses themselves (reduced to 7mm, but before being coated) will cost less per piece, but the coating will cost more per piece.

Most likelly, the price of the 405nm lenses would then be a bit lower, than the price of the first 40 with a broadband coating. I just asked for this price, so that i can make some final calculations.



The cheapest way would be to make one single order for all lenses at once, and with only one coating, which would then have to be broadband.


But i think an "acceptable risk Mini GB" for the first 40 would be in order, even if they cost a bit more, just to confirm they work as planned, to do the power measurements, and to give everyone else an idea of what to expect.



Now, who would this first Mini-GB be good for?

If the rest of the lenses are coated for blu (and i think they should be as the price will be the same), then this mini-GB would obviously have to be for everyone, who wants a 660nm suitable lens, and of course for those of us who want a lens asap, and are getting more later anyway.

After the first 40, there may not be any more broadband lenses, as it is the coatings, that make everything so expensive, and if we complicate with this, it just ends up costing more. Maybe they might be willing to put another small number into the broadband machine at a later point as well. In that case, the price would not be influenced too badly, but basically, as soon as a few lenses are ordered with another coating, the price of the first lenses increases, as it is spread over less of them, and the price of the other coating comes in on top.


The only "cheap" way around this in the future would be to either have them all broadband coated - we'd end up with a ~mW less with blu rays, but we'd have a universal lens.


Anyway, this is what i've got now. I will also have the final prices today, but for now i have to rest my eyes, if i ever want to get to enjoy lasers properly again! (and i do)


Untill then, you can think it all over a bit, and help me with the decision. The final decision will of course come from the testing of the first 40. Oh, and of the first 40, 20-25 would be available for grabs, i'd take the rest.


So this is it, and i hope i can come back soon!
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