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Old 02-26-2010, 05:14 PM #17
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
then someone needs to change the name of this section, because it clearly states "Discuss physics, metaphysics and science applied to lasers." I don't really care, though.. I only brought it up to be silly.
You are correct, I'll contact c0ld to discuss it later

@dave: Well, it's the purpose the section was created for, sorry

@dave2: We're not talking about dialect, I don't plan on discussing how we describe the universe (I did get your point), but on how it would be according to the science we know as of yet.

Gotta run, cheers!


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Old 02-26-2010, 05:36 PM #18
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

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@dave: Well, it's the purpose the section was created for, sorry

@dave2: We're not talking about dialect, I don't plan on discussing how we describe the universe (I did get your point), but on how it would be according to the science we know as of yet.
First, I would posit that this is exactly what we are doing.

Secondly, the below are the definitions of dialectic that I am referring to. I am focusing on the oppositional force concepts, rather than the dialogue aspects of the word.

When using "dialectic dialogue" to ascertain truth, you discuss the possibilities until a "truth" is agreed on.

When focusing on "a dialectic" one must measure two mutually exclusive and yet inter-dependent concepts.

4 a : the Hegelian process of change in which a concept or its realization passes over into and is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite; also : the critical investigation of this process b (1) usually plural but singular or plural in construction : development through the stages of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis in accordance with the laws of dialectical materialism (2) : the investigation of this process (3) : the theoretical application of this process especially in the social sciences

5 usually plural but singular or plural in construction a : any systematic reasoning, exposition, or argument that juxtaposes opposed or contradictory ideas and usually seeks to resolve their conflict b : an intellectual exchange of ideas

6 : the dialectical tension or opposition between two interacting forces or elements

One can only understand infinity by comparing it to the finite. However, once one understands the finite, infinity becomes beyond comprehension

Peace,
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:38 PM #19
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

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but on how it would be according to the science we know as of yet
The problem is that neither us or the science know a shit still xD
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:45 PM #20
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Ok, as more then one person has already stated, The question is too vague. How does one define the universe, and in what dimension are you attempting to verify infinity?

You could make a case for infinite empty void with no matter, encompassing a finite amount of matter, thus having an infinite universe

You could make a case for infinite duration of existence, thus still having an infinite universe even if matter and space were finite.

You could make a case for infinite matter and energy in the universe. As even if all the mass and energy in the universe that we can see at the moment is finite, There still remains the question of what caused the big bang, and how do we know, that there can not be another big bang. Assuming that if it happened once, it's within the bounds of possibility for it to happen again, then there is no required limit to the mass of the universe as a whole. After all, there is not one shred of physics to disprove a multiple big bang hypothesis, as all mathematics that are based on observation of the current state of the universe, can not predict ultimately what happens if you change the state of the universe that such math itself is based on.

Personally, I think that there is no inherent limit to how far matter and energy can progress, and that all the mass and energy that we can perceive is finite, but that there is no hard requirement for the universe to be limited to just the matter and energy that we believe to be existing at this time. and no durational limit to the universe.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:02 PM #21
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

In my head this is like asking how many pieces can you divide a line into.

There is a physical limit, but not a theoretical one.

As I understand it:

If it's non-Euclidean than it's either a bubble or some variation of a hyperbolic paraboloid. Either one speaks to a multi-verse that encompasses more than the tangible from our perspective.

If it's Euclidean (which I seriously doubt) then if it were finite it would be like many people used to claim about the earth, saying you can fall off the end when you reached it.. You may run out of "Stuff" out there, but not out of space.

And (I have to add this - for some reason) from a biblical standpoint. It had a start and that's all that's for sure.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:13 PM #22
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

The implications to the answer are very big,

but regardless, I believe that the universe is finite. I think that it is only as big as the age of the universe (since the time it began to expand from a singularity) * the speed of light. No piece of matter can travel out farther than the speed of light. Not even space- tiem can expand faster than the light of light.

So to say that the universe had a beginning, is to say that it is finite.

To say that the universe has always been here, can suggested that the universe is infinite.

Just my recent thoughts on this.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:30 PM #23
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

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Originally Posted by Meatball View Post
but regardless, I believe that the universe is finite. I think that it is only as big as the age of the universe (since the time it began to expand from a singularity) * the speed of light. No piece of matter can travel out farther than the speed of light. Not even space- tiem can expand faster than the light of light.
Actually, I'm pretty certain that virtually all theorys of the big bang absolutely require that space-time can expand faster then the speed of light. (inflation) As the universe had to expand faster to account for the current observed state to evolve.

EDIT: As a side note. PROOF that the universe is finite. Uni = one. Verse = sentence. universe = a single ssentence. A.k.a. god saying "let it be" As a sentence must have both a beginning and an end, the universe (one sentence) must therefore have a beginning and an end! Also the earth is only a few thousand years old! and all the species in the world lived within walking distance of noah's ark!!!!!!!! DIE heretical nonbelievers! get the torches and pitchforks!!!!!!!
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:40 PM #24
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Sorry for the sarcasm. I was thinking that since this thread invariably will be more along the lines of "what do you personally believe the universe is," makes it fit in almost with the religion thread....... As it all comes down to a matter of personal belief.
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:58 PM #25
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

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Originally Posted by daguin View Post
First, I would posit that this is exactly what we are doing.

Secondly, the below are the definitions of dialectic that I am referring to. I am focusing on the oppositional force concepts, rather than the dialogue aspects of the word.

When using "dialectic dialogue" to ascertain truth, you discuss the possibilities until a "truth" is agreed on.

When focusing on "a dialectic" one must measure two mutually exclusive and yet inter-dependent concepts.

4 a : the Hegelian process of change in which a concept or its realization passes over into and is preserved and fulfilled by its opposite; also : the critical investigation of this process b (1) usually plural but singular or plural in construction : development through the stages of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis in accordance with the laws of dialectical materialism (2) : the investigation of this process (3) : the theoretical application of this process especially in the social sciences

5 usually plural but singular or plural in construction a : any systematic reasoning, exposition, or argument that juxtaposes opposed or contradictory ideas and usually seeks to resolve their conflict b : an intellectual exchange of ideas

6 : the dialectical tension or opposition between two interacting forces or elements

One can only understand infinity by comparing it to the finite. However, once one understands the finite, infinity becomes beyond comprehension

Peace,
dave
I cannot argue with that.

After I consider my loop several times I always end up thinking that I'll never know the answer because we simply cannot imagine something like it (it's the same as trying to see a 5 dimensional world).

Sorry guys, had a rough day today, I'll read the answers later

Gotta run again!
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:09 PM #26
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

I wonder if somewhere out there someone else is wondering the same things we here on earth are.

Seems rather arrogant of us if we were to believe that of the insurmountable number of planets in this (in)finite universe that earth would be the only one with intelligent life on it.
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:26 PM #27
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Mathematically, the odds are WAY against Earth being the only planet with intelligent life.. Even if the odds were 1 in 1 billion, it would still have happened at least a few hundred times throughout the universe.
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:51 PM #28
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Well... if I took a theoretical space craft in any Direction from the Earth
and at some point hit an "end of universe" wall... then I would think it's finite
else not...

As for other life....We (Earth) can't possibly be the 1st and only with the
number of possible planet hosts...


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Old 02-26-2010, 09:04 PM #29
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Just prior to the big bang, the universe may have been an infinately large void within which the bang matter continues to expand.

The idea of energy has been mentioned and as we have been "taught" -- Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. If the existing matter and energy continues to expand (before it hits the side of the test tube!), should not the background temperature of space continue to drop?

Steve Hawking has proposed that black holes eventually dissolve. Where does the energy and matter go to? Is the gravitation sufficient to pass it to another place and time or is it returned as sub-atomic matter?

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Old 02-26-2010, 09:08 PM #30
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Hmmm... perpetual motion comes to mind..
Maybe it is possible.... in the universal scheme of things...

Jerry
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:13 PM #31
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Stephen Hawking? What the hell does he know?
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:06 PM #32
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Default Re: Is the universe infinite or finite?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElektroFreak View Post
Mathematically, the odds are WAY against Earth being the only planet with intelligent life.. Even if the odds were 1 in 1 billion, it would still have happened at least a few hundred times throughout the universe.
My thoughts exactly.

Anyone ever heard of the hidden variable in QM (Quantum Mechanics) and the theory that time is both variable and constant? Fun read

There are also some things related to this, like a theory that says that all living beings turn to dust which migrates to other planets (or stays in the same one) and turns into "fuel" (for example for the Sun). This came up when I searched if planets ever "died"...

In the end I found that Earth is "powered" by radioactive decay... but I had to study and thus left Google
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