Low Level Laser Therapy inquiry

Appreciate your comments
“lowered oxygen saturation in the blood” is common problem, I think in patients with diabetic micro vascular disease, chronic pulmonary or cardiac diseases or simple arteriosclerosis common in olds, so your comment is important to take in count ¡
I will comment with the international companies that manufacture this medical devices and search in PUBMED about this issue,
You think will be the same scenario with 808 nm? (CW, 200 mW) –or just with red light?-
I practice acupuncture for 23 years –more than 30,000 acupuncture sessions and I saw several minor accidents, in fact in international/world literature has been even casualties because is invasive procedure, but the risk is minimum in skill hands
In the same kind of patient treated with drugs or surgery the risk is a lot more high, so in balance with selected patients when acupuncture is useful the balance favor acupuncture VS drugs or surgery
But about 808 nm your opinion is the same than with 660 nm? or in 830nm? 850 nm? 904nm?
Just one point: culture is important for acceptance or rejection of medical procedures, for instance, surgery is accepted in all the countries and all times but acupuncture is accepted only in Asia countries and has very new growing acceptance in occidental countries
Again appreciate your and the members comments

I think low level of NIR/IR laser has "only thermal effect" for the skin and mucosa.
Low level would not penetrate the dermis layer but would be scattered.
Even more, NIR/IR would have no effect on melanocytes and vitamin D formation.

Thermal effect might be effctive in inflammation and abscess formation.
But I think a heat-pad or an incan bulb is more effective than "a laser show".

edit] The level of coagulation(operative or intravascular use) and cauterization is not low level.

the point is stimulate with photonic energy small areas of the body,, heat pad or incan bulb could burn the patient and aren't practice, with laser beam the spot is small and don't burn in low mW (<200mW) even don't feel hot, that is why are known like cold lasers and LLLT, vit D and melanocites aren´t target, in medical international market the laser diodes applied by devices in CW and pulses are in use now in many developed and under developed countries aproved by the respective sanitary health authorities for acupuncture, cosmetic -wrinkles-, surgery, hair removal of course with a wide range of mw, --but not so much different wavelenghts--from 10 mW until 2,000 or 4,000 mw -may be more- and of course in this high mW with very short pulses (nano seconds), all depends of the purposes, my purpose is "stimulate" the term is "photo-biostimulation- "photo bio modulation" this is a new field of science,
is interesting how with different objectives and expertises has coincidence in laser beams
but like you and other member said: what about other sources of light like incan bulbs, LEDs?, the scientific publicationss are focused on lasers and in low proportion in LEDS in the same wave lenghts, so, thank you guys any comment is well received

I think you are practicing the low-level laser therapy now.
Is it curative or conservative?

And I'd like to know "the physiology of the tissue reaction" and "the mechanism of low level laser", NOT the experimental methodology.
Can you link some related paper if you please?

DrMACOR said:

Appreciate your comments
“lowered oxygen saturation in the blood” is common problem,

...

You think will be the same scenario with 808 nm? (CW, 200 mW) –or just with red light?-

Click to expand...

The likelyhood of problems with 808 nm are far less likely as it is not absorbed readily by desoxyhemoglobin, so it would not easily heat up unsaturated blood in a hair vessel just under the skin like red light could.

I insist on extreme caution in these cases because the benefit of accupuncture has little scientific proof, so basically any risk you take is a risk not outweighed by a proven benefit. If you treat someone for pain, the risk may be much lower compared to that person taking a painkiller tablet, but the benefit of the latter has been recognized, making some risk legally acceptable.

As for risk from other sources, you are absolutely right to state that they exist. Exposure of skin to sunlight has been proven to elevate risk of severe afflictions like skin cancer, and there is no doubt this relationship is real. However, exposing ones skin to sunlight is a personal choice and the risks are accepted to be part of everyday life.

If a medical practitioner would instruct a patient to go tan in the sun as a cure for any ailment, i'm sure this would be severely scrutinized and could possibly lead to liability for bodily harm caused in the long run.

View attachment MECHANISMS_OF_LOW_LEVEL_LIGHT_THERAPY_IN_ACUPUNCTURE_MD_Dr.VamanJaganNathan.pdfView attachment MECHANISMS_OF_LOW_LEVEL_LIGHT_THERAPY_IN_ACUPUNCTURE_MD_Dr.VamanJaganNathan.pdf

SHIN said:

I think you are practicing the low-level laser therapy now.
Is it curative or conservative?
-----LLLT is a "tool" in medicine, fraction of integrative procedures, I don't made science, I applicate medical science, modern medicine, conventional medicine and traditional procedures validated by traditions but not for modern science (acupuncture) this last is considered like class C or evidence C (when is based in traditions not in randomized, double blind, multicentric research), all this is my method and for me and my patients works
now with LLLT is a new "tool" applied in scientific medicine, clinical medicine and traditional medicine----
your question is like: a scalpel is curative or conservative?

And I'd like to know "the physiology of the tissue reaction" and "the mechanism of low level laser", NOT the experimental methodology.
Can you link some related paper if you please?

Click to expand...

View attachment MECHANISMS_OF_LOW_LEVEL_LIGHT_THERAPY_IN_ACUPUNCTURE_MD_Dr.VamanJaganNathan.pdf
Sorry SHIN, I read papers but I don't have in format I can attach
but let me attach some papers may be is useful
I find this doctoral thesis from a Indian MD:
and this others

DrMACOR said:

View attachment 35937View attachment 35937
View attachment 35937
Sorry SHIN, I read papers but I don't have in format I can attach
but let me attach some papers may be is useful
I find this doctoral thesis from a Indian MD:
and this others

Click to expand...

read the mechanism of action in each documents

The papers you posted show mainly anti-inflammatory effect for chronic patients (arthritis, chronic immobile joint Pt. etc) and relieving the related symptoms(pain, edema and inflammation).
Oh, there is a case report of Bell's palsy(facial nerve palalysis), too. It's incredible!!

Anti-inflammatory effect of chronic inflammation by heat(also pain, edema) has been
proved.

Low dose laser beam(any frequency) cannot penetrate to the subcutaneous tissue.
It just is SCATTERED and CONVERTS to the heat at the subcut. tissue.

What I'd like to know is whether the LASER-SPECIFIC effect of anti-inflammation really is.
When heat(or light) and laser(low level) is applied on skin, both become the heat at subcut. level. So I can hardly differentiate the heat therapy from your laser therapy at the subcut. level.

I think low level of laser can be a good substitute for conventional heat transfer methods.
But I don't think it is a new science or it is new era....No proven LASER-SPECIFIC results yet.

DrMACOR do you have any links to information on the location of meridian points used with "photostimulation" , what frequencies are used and what ailments have been known to be cured at these points?
A couple of years ago I searched the internet for this information and found nothing on this.
I see from the link description that you have just posted that chronic pain is discussed though I have not yet read the documents you have shared and will soon.
Thank You

@BenM Wow you sure know a lot about this stuff!

SHIN: Search the work of Tiina Karu and the books like “The science of Low-Level-Laser-Therapy” and other books of this author
Tiina Karu is the head of the department of laser biology at the laser technology research center, Troitsk, there is is a disparity between the clinical applications by physicians and the laboratory research.
As my understanding these are some explanations: if you want scientific speculations or even just speculations based in all the literature I read before
 Local effects in the mitochondria, with his photoreceptors in the cytochromes and increasing the production of ATP
 This increase energy (on more ATP molecules) are free energy (brought in from the outside), a contribution to the cells and help to repair damages
 The body structures at molecular level, cellular level, all the connective tissue structures, work like semiconductor lattice, this is a new science or new paradigm “the body electric properties” beyond the depolarization of cell membranes in nerve and muscle cells
 So in LLLT you have local and at distance effects, for this reason is useful in acupuncture
 But LLLT is only a tool, the physician should integrate in the complex field of the living systems

__________________

LaserCo:
let me put in the more simplest way:
in acupuncture just use LLLT when you think stimulate with heat, with moxibustion, this is a security lock, never use like substitute of acupuncture with needles, just when is a syndrome of "yang deficiency" or when you want use "fire needles" or in the points you want stimulate with moxibustion
with this in mind no have problems ---andd all the security issues with lasers like glasses, etc---

LaserCo:
about frecuencies that's why being in this forum
in the commercial devices for LLLT almost always put CW aside different cocktail of pulses
the physician can put very low frecuencies with the hand movements and even simulate the movements of a needle "thrust/lift" or "push/lift" (sorry for my english)
I am searching the forum members reviews about where buy or who manufacture a cheap device in CW with 808, 850 nm in 100 or 200 mW, as I see the members have so much expertise in this devices but for other use
about the frecuencies I read a lot but for me are only anecdotic comments, not scientific facts even when there are very good scientific facts about windows of frecuencies I don't know wich frecuency is specific for that or that effect
I think the importance is the nm and mw and size dot, until we are sure of specific effect of frecuencies the CW are cheap and useful...what think other members???
cocktail pulsed devices are expensive...should I pay for this beatiful marketing??

SHIN said:

I think low level of laser can be a good substitute for conventional heat transfer methods.
But I don't think it is a new science or it is new era....No proven LASER-SPECIFIC results yet.

Click to expand...

Effects that are specific to lasers don't seem very likely in any case.

Something that would work well with a laser but not with a broader light source is pretty rare in biology really. You would need some biological target that would, for example, be sensitive to 650 nm, but not to 645 or 655. Also, it needs to be superficial, otherwise it is required that blood and tissues are transparent to the wavelength used, yielding examples at longer wavelengths.

When shining light into the body, three basic things (and combinations of them) can result:

- the light is absorbed
- the light is scattered
- the light is transmitted

If you were to shine a bright white flashlight through your fingers, you can see all three things happening quite easily: everything but the red light is absorbed (it doesnt come out at all). The red light is mostly scattered but does is eventually transmitted partially out of the other side of your hand.

The question for lasers would be in the absorbed part: are there any mammalian tissues (outside of the eye) that specifically absorb a narrow range of wavelengths, and if so, does that produce any effect other than thermal?

I am not familiar with any, but that obviously doesnt mean they do not or can not exist.

Benm said:

If you were to shine a bright white flashlight through your fingers, you can see all three things happening quite easily: everything but the red light is absorbed (it doesnt come out at all). The red light is mostly scattered but does is eventually transmitted partially out of the other side of your hand.

Click to expand...

Yes. Low level laser and flashlight shows nearly the same effect.
Low level laser lose its laser characteristics at subcutaneous tissue.

Benm said:

The question for lasers would be in the absorbed part: are there any mammalian tissues (outside of the eye) that specifically absorb a narrow range of wavelengths, and if so, does that produce any effect other than thermal?

I am not familiar with any, but that obviously doesnt mean they do not or can not exist.

Click to expand...

The effect of light and heat on tissue has been researched. And so has the effect of wavelength.
It is not that all of the effects is known WHETHER adverse reaction or not.

But it is known that heat(or a form of light) is effective in the chronic inflammation(pain, edema and injection).
There are many aspects TO BE PROVED for the therapeutic use.

Hi Guys, I have been investigating this topic recently to find something to treat my osteoarthritic ankle. The best producer of these laser I have been able to find is Irradia. They produce a 904nm wavelength which correlates with most of the research in this area. Unfortunately their laser are expensive. This model is the one I am after MID-LITE modell 904 and it is $5000. is anyone aware of of a company that can make to these same specs?

From what i have summarised from the research.
904nm is the best wavelength for more significant penetration
20mW/cm2 is optimal
Can anyone make to these specs?

You realize this stuff is meant for skin health, right?

An osteoarthritic ankle would require increased calcium intake and pain management. Not skin "rejuvenation".