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Old 01-22-2010, 05:21 PM #17
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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Originally Posted by Bluefan View Post
Nice try, but not entirely correct. The beam diameter is not an important aspect here, we're always using a beam diameter much larger than the mavelength and much larger than the beam waist we want to get.
Note that the wikipedia page is about a beam propagating in free space. It's not that clear about focussing such a beam. The beamwaist is determined by the wavelength, focal length and aperture/initial beamwaist (or Numerical Aperture to combine both) and the constant pi. The higher the NA, the smaller the beam waist, no need to expand the beam first. See the end of here.
So, just take a lens with a high NA that just a little bigger than the laser beam diameter (or you'll end up not using the high NA).
While its true you can focus a laser down to a tighter point by what you describe it cant get to the tightest point possible. To get closer to the theoretical limit your NA needs to approach infinity thus the bigger the beam the better.


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Old 01-22-2010, 05:39 PM #18
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

The NA is a combination of the focal length of the lens used and the diameter. A 1 cm diameter lens with a 1cm focal length has the same NA as a 10cm diameter lens with a 10cm focal length. And it's easy to get a 1cm lens with 1cm focal length (or 10cm dia. + 10cm focal), but a 10cm lens with a 1cm focal length is practically impossible. The NA is proportional to both, but increasing one without the other is practically impossible, thus the maximum NA is a limit of the lens independent of it's size (theoretically).
You argument for the other NA parameter:
to get closer to the theoretical limit your NA needs to approach infinity thus the shorter the focal length the better.
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:18 PM #19
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

Yes its true that infinitely large short focal lenses are hard to make. Whats important here are these ideal ratios. In input beam parameter equation is 2w= (4*wavelength/pi)*(F/D) where D is the diameter if the incoming beam and F is the focal length of the lens (f/d is also called the f stop number). Now you will not its equally easy to find a lens thats 3in and 1cm with the same f stop.

So by this reasoning your beam diameter needs to use as much of the lens as possible. Now typical laser beams are on the order of a few mm. If you can find cheep readily available accurate lenses at this scale then thats a start. But most cheep highly accurate lenses are also slightly larger, thus you will have to expand your beam to fill the surface.

The second issue here is in most practical spherical lens systems you cant use the entire diameter of the lens else you will suffer from spherical aberration and your focal size will suffer as a result. Lets say you can use 80% of the lens before you suffer from such an issue. Controlling a laser beam so it fills 80% of a 1cm lens is much much more difficult than controlling a larger beam so it fills 80% of a 3in lens.

Thus, as its generally taught in any photonics laser graduate course, if you want the minimum focal point its important to expand your beam before refocusing.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:59 PM #20
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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...So by this reasoning your beam diameter needs to use as much of the lens as possible. Now typical laser beams are on the order of a few mm. If you can find cheep readily available accurate lenses at this scale then thats a start. But most cheep highly accurate lenses are also slightly larger, thus you will have to expand your beam to fill the surface...
Laser collimation lenses usually are very short focal length and probably aspheric too, so that issue would be gone too.

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...The second issue here is in most practical spherical lens systems you cant use the entire diameter of the lens else you will suffer from spherical aberration and your focal size will suffer as a result. Lets say you can use 80% of the lens before you suffer from such an issue. Controlling a laser beam so it fills 80% of a 1cm lens is much much more difficult than controlling a larger beam so it fills 80% of a 3in lens...
If only 80% is usable, this plays in both cases. It would be more a matter to find the appropriate lenses, shrinking a large diameter laser beam to fit for example a microscope objective probably is quite common, microscope objectives can have nice NA's (or f stop, same concept).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirac View Post
Thus, as its generally taught in any photonics laser graduate course, if you want the minimum focal point its important to expand your beam before refocusing.
I happen to spent most of my time in the lab of the laser physics department at my university, I'll ask around, I haven't heard of this before.
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Old 01-27-2010, 06:41 PM #21
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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If only 80% is usable, this plays in both cases. It would be more a matter to find the appropriate lenses, shrinking a large diameter laser beam to fit for example a microscope objective probably is quite common, microscope objectives can have nice NA's (or f stop, same concept).
Yes it plays in both cases but which is easier: Measuring 80% of 2-3cm to <1% acuracy or measuring 80% of 1mm with <1% accuracy?

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I happen to spent most of my time in the lab of the laser physics department at my university, I'll ask around, I haven't heard of this before.
It was actually stressed in my Photonics class in graduate school. And mentioned in Saleh and Teich's Fundamentals of Photonics books as well . I am not saying you need to make your beam 10M wide to achieve this effect(there is an obvious practical limit here as well) and you may very well get lucky and be able to do it with the tiniest perfect lens possible but for practical reasons its more efficient and easier to control this larger beam. Just because you "can" doesn't make it the best option.
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:20 PM #22
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

Dirac is quite correct. Expand the beam then focus the beam.
With the correct setup a 5 mW laser can produce the the equivalent of several millions of watts in a small area.

I saw some years ago a setup using a 5mw red pointer demonstrating the result of what expanding and focusing with optics could do. The demonstration showed that with this setup even a 5mW output laser could burn.
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Old 05-10-2010, 12:25 PM #23
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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Dirac is quite correct. Expand the beam then focus the beam.
With the correct setup a 5 mW laser can produce the the equivalent of several millions of watts in a small area.

I saw some years ago a setup using a 5mw red pointer demonstrating the result of what expanding and focusing with optics could do. The demonstration showed that with this setup even a 5mW output laser could burn.
I think I'll try this!
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:41 PM #24
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

This thread is over 4 months old, and you are never going to get a 5mW laser to burn like that in your home. You would need lots of precision optics and some insanely huge and isolated beam table because even the natural tremors of the earth would trow the focus off enough to mess it up.

A 5mW laser just might pop a balloon if you coax it enough. That's probably about it, and even then you need optimal conditions. I've only done it once with a 7mW laser and it took a good 30 minutes to get it perfect.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:04 AM #25
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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This thread is over 4 months old, and you are never going to get a 5mW laser to burn like that in your home. You would need lots of precision optics and some insanely huge and isolated beam table because even the natural tremors of the earth would trow the focus off enough to mess it up.

A 5mW laser just might pop a balloon if you coax it enough. That's probably about it, and even then you need optimal conditions. I've only done it once with a 7mW laser and it took a good 30 minutes to get it perfect.
Granted for maximal results this is probably necessary.
Actually it was a homemade rinky dink setup used to accomplish burning with 5mw. It was to demonstrate it could be done.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:05 AM #26
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

It is important to note that extremely high power densities are achieved at the focal point of a concentrated laser beam. A 10-milliwatt beam focused to a diffraction-limited spot 0.22 micrometers in diameter results in a power density of approximately 30-million watts per square centimeter.
Olympus FluoView Resource Center: Laser Systems for Confocal Microscopy
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:35 AM #27
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Angry Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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If basic optics theory is too much for you to handle, you're probably in the wrong hobby. May I suggest a lighter?
Explain kindly please. This is NOT appropriate.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:58 AM #28
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

anybody got a laser meter, 20x mag glass with a 200mw laser, wonder what the output would be?
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:12 AM #29
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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anybody got a laser meter, 20x mag glass with a 200mw laser, wonder what the output would be?
Wouldn't it still read 200mW? Sure it would increase the power density by focusing it but the overall power hitting the TEC would be the same.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:07 AM #30
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

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anybody got a laser meter, 20x mag glass with a 200mw laser, wonder what the output would be?
It would still output 200mW...
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:09 AM #31
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

3 years...what the hell of a necro post!

if u had a 20x lens you would measure near 200mW perhaps less, as the area is so small that it "confuses" the meter and u actually read less, but i still wouldnt advice you to get ur finger in front of it
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:12 AM #32
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Default Re: Laser + Magnifying lens

The real question you should be asking is how much does one ton of feathers weigh?
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