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Old 06-10-2014, 01:38 AM #17
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

I'm necro/bumping this because I just now saw this thread, and it's been making me think a bit. This subject in general is probably a very good one for all of us to at least keep in mind. The encroaching police state will gladly have you believe that you're lucky enough to not be on their radar, but it's just another one of their lies - don't be fooled.

A few things out of the article on optics.org pissed me off:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullshit propaganda article
Non-lethal’ lasers not always as specified
27 Mar 2013
Growing use – by friend and foe – of lasers as weapons in civil unrest and war zones; many lasers labeled “low power” present greater dangers, DES 2013 conference hears. Many supposedly low power laser-based tools, including some laser pointers, widely available over the Internet, are often incorrectly or under-specified.
Governments have done this to themselves. This is what happens when they impose asinine restrictions based on fear-mongering and the obsession with control, rather than on objective, rational facts. If the rules were more reasonable then companies/people wouldn't have to lie to sell their products, and the government wouldn't have to waste so much time and effort enforcing them.

But since the FDA only employs dipshits, I don't expect them to grasp such a simple concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullshit propaganda article
In conjunction with widely varying international export and import restrictions, this can mean that that potentially dangerous laser systems can easily get into the wrong hands.
POTENTIALLY dangerous is not the same thing as DANGEROUS RIGHT NOW. A gun is potentially dangerous... if you misuse it, or don't know what you're doing. A car is potentially dangerous because it will kill you if it runs you over. The electricity in your house is dangerous... if you use improperly grounded circuits and/or stick metal objects into the outlets. They only become dangerous right now if they are misused, or used without proper understanding. Arguing for regulation/bans on these grounds shows nothing but complete contempt for one's citizens, because it completely assumes that people are incapable of acting responsibly and that they will usually not do so.

Can someone at the FDA please explain this to me: If you're going to raise hell about "dangerous" then why aren't you banning people from buying gallons of gasoline and putting it into containers that they can then carry around? Don't you think that carrying five gallons of highly flammable liquid is DANGEROUS, you morons? I don't see you guarding the gas pumps, please explain the logic of not protecting us from these potential arsonists.

That's the government's problem - their rules MAKE NO SENSE. They scream, yell, and generally shit their pants over one thing, but then ignore a dozen things that are demonstrably worse. How can FDA/government possibly be surprised that people don't respect those rules, unless they really do employ only bona fide idiots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullshit propaganda article
"Such lasers can cost as little as $300, delivering green or blue light. The label says do not use the laser against an aircraft but it also says this is a class 3B laser – but it’s not – it’s actually a class 4 laser. If we compare a nominal pointer like this, the commercially available 800mW or 1W lasers, with the specification of one of the current military-type dazzlers, you can see that the commercial laser is much more powerful and much more dangerous than the military-grade dazzlers."
PROPAGANDA. The "military grade dazzlers" are DESIGNED to comply with the Geneva Conventions because they are WEAPONS INTENDED TO BE AIMED AT PEOPLE. The Class-IV lasers they're mentioning were neither designed nor intended to be pointed at anyone. They aren't weapons, thus they don't need to be considered in terms of the Geneva Conventions.

I'm sure I could find a way to commit war crimes using a car or a steak knife if I really wanted to; should those now be banned/regulated because they are POTENTIALLY capable of violating the Geneva Convention?

They always go on about "using lasers" as weapons, or to point at airplanes, blah, blah, blah. WRONG. People who do those things are not "using lasers", they are MISUSING and/or ABUSING lasers. GET IT RIGHT - show some respect to the people who pay your salary by using the appropriate language.

Lastly, I like how they put up a screenshot (an EDITED screenshot - note the post numbers in the image) of LPF. They post this screenshot of LPF in an article about handheld lasers being used as weapons.

FUCK YOU, OPTICS.ORG.

The use of that screenshot in such an article is inappropriate beyond words. NOBODY on this forum condones the use of our lasers as weapons of any kind, ever. Period, end of story. If they wanted to use the screenshot in an article about customs avoidance, or something like that, that would be fine. It really makes me angry to see them insinuate that we are somehow encouraging or involved with people who misuse lasers to harm others, because that isn't what LPF is about at all.

Obviously optics.org is just one more clearinghouse and/or mouthpiece for the government goons, while masquerading as something reputable and trustworthy. An FDA trojan horse.

Really irritating. They just assume we are all deranged and out to do damage. They don't even give us the CHANCE to be responsible! It's just BAN, BAN, BAN on the basis that every laser is a dangerous weapon and everybody who is interested in lasers is an asshole.

No wonder people try to bypass their restrictions. Sorry if the language I use is harsh but that article is nothing but insult, after insult, after insult.

ETA: One other thing... if the FDA/government is watching this forum then they know DAMN WELL that we really, really hate it when people misuse or abuse lasers. You cannot spy on this forum and miss this fact, because we decry such misuse everywhere. I don't understand why they, knowing this for a fact, continue to lump us in with the idiots, the criminals, and the generally bad. It does little to encourage any cooperation on them at any level.


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808nm : SkyLaser HL808 820mW
650nm : [C6] LPC-826 215mW - SkyLaser HL650 175mW - Radio Shack <5mW
638nm : Opnext HL63603TG 190mW - AtlasNova <5mW
632nm : Metrologic ML-868 <5mW - Uniphase 155ASL-1 HeNe 0.95mW
543nm : Melles-Griot 05-LGR-193-497 HeNe 2.4mW
532nm : SkyLaser HL532 w/ IR filter 200mW - Fasttech SD-301 120mW - Lazerer LZCS 105mW - Laser 301 custom mod 85mW - various Laser 301's
520nm : [C6] Osram PL520 110mW - SkyLaser HL520 50mW
450nm : [C6] Osram PL450 260mW - Lazerer LZCS 145mW - SkyLaser HL450 95mW - SkyLaser LP450 90mW
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Last edited by Marco Polo; 06-10-2014 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:10 AM #18
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
I'm necro/bumping this because I just now saw this thread, and it's been making me think a bit. This subject in general is probably a very good one for all of us to at least keep in mind. The encroaching police state will gladly have you believe that you're lucky enough to not be on their radar, but it's just another one of their lies - don't be fooled.

A few things out of the article on optics.org pissed me off:



Governments have done this to themselves. This is what happens when they impose asinine restrictions based on fear-mongering and the obsession with control, rather than on objective, rational facts. If the rules were more reasonable then companies/people wouldn't have to lie to sell their products, and the government wouldn't have to waste so much time and effort enforcing them.

But since the FDA only employs dipshits, I don't expect them to grasp such a simple concept.



POTENTIALLY dangerous is not the same thing as DANGEROUS RIGHT NOW. A gun is potentially dangerous... if you misuse it, or don't know what you're doing. A car is potentially dangerous because it will kill you if it runs you over. The electricity in your house is dangerous... if you use improperly grounded circuits and/or stick metal objects into the outlets. They only become dangerous right now if they are misused, or used without proper understanding. Arguing for regulation/bans on these grounds shows nothing but complete contempt for one's citizens, because it completely assumes that people are incapable of acting responsibly and that they will usually not do so.

Can someone at the FDA please explain this to me: If you're going to raise hell about "dangerous" then why aren't you banning people from buying gallons of gasoline and putting it into containers that they can then carry around? Don't you think that carrying five gallons of highly flammable liquid is DANGEROUS, you morons? I don't see you guarding the gas pumps, please explain the logic of not protecting us from these potential arsonists.

That's the government's problem - their rules MAKE NO SENSE. They scream, yell, and generally shit their pants over one thing, but then ignore a dozen things that are demonstrably worse. How can FDA/government possibly be surprised that people don't respect those rules, unless they really do employ only bona fide idiots?



PROPAGANDA. The "military grade dazzlers" are DESIGNED to comply with the Geneva Conventions because they are WEAPONS INTENDED TO BE AIMED AT PEOPLE. The Class-IV lasers they're mentioning were neither designed nor intended to be pointed at anyone. They aren't weapons, thus they don't need to be considered in terms of the Geneva Conventions.

I'm sure I could find a way to commit war crimes using a car or a steak knife if I really wanted to; should those now be banned/regulated because they are POTENTIALLY capable of violating the Geneva Convention?

They always go on about "using lasers" as weapons, or to point at airplanes, blah, blah, blah. WRONG. People who do those things are not "using lasers", they are MISUSING and/or ABUSING lasers. GET IT RIGHT - show some respect to the people who pay your salary by using the appropriate language.

Lastly, I like how they put up a screenshot (an EDITED screenshot - note the post numbers in the image) of LPF. They post this screenshot of LPF in an article about handheld lasers being used as weapons.

FUCK YOU, OPTICS.ORG.

The use of that screenshot in such an article is inappropriate beyond words. NOBODY on this forum condones the use of our lasers as weapons of any kind, ever. Period, end of story. If they wanted to use the screenshot in an article about customs avoidance, or something like that, that would be fine. It really makes me angry to see them insinuate that we are somehow encouraging or involved with people who misuse lasers to harm others, because that isn't what LPF is about at all.

Obviously optics.org is just one more clearinghouse and/or mouthpiece for the government goons, while masquerading as something reputable and trustworthy. An FDA trojan horse.

Really irritating. They just assume we are all deranged and out to do damage. They don't even give us the CHANCE to be responsible! It's just BAN, BAN, BAN on the basis that every laser is a dangerous weapon and everybody who is interested in lasers is an asshole.

No wonder people try to bypass their restrictions. Sorry if the language I use is harsh but that article is nothing but insult, after insult, after insult.

ETA: One other thing... if the FDA/government is watching this forum then they know DAMN WELL that we really, really hate it when people misuse or abuse lasers. You cannot spy on this forum and miss this fact, because we decry such misuse everywhere. I don't understand why they, knowing this for a fact, continue to lump us in with the idiots, the criminals, and the generally bad. It does little to encourage any cooperation on them at any level.
Well if this pisses you off royally, then I can't imagine what this will do to you. It's a good thing you didn't read this with a gun in your hand and innocent bystanders nearby. Before you read what's below don't drink any coffee or alcohol and lock up any firearms and give someone else the key.
US: FDA proposes defacto ban on selling pointers, handhelds above 5 milliwatts The U.S. Food and Drug Administration on May 5 2014 will announce its intent to limit laser pointers and handheld lasers to be below 5 milliwatts. If adopted, this action would impose a defacto ban in the U.S. on the sale to consumers of portable, battery powered lasers of 5 mW or more. Currently, such lasers are available for sale in the U.S. at powers of up to 3 watts (3000 milliwatts) which is 600 times the proposed FDA limit.

Although the agency did not give a reason, such bans have been imposed in other countries in response to climbing numbers of laser illuminations of aircraft as well as reports of eye injuries caused by higher-powered consumer lasers.

The proposal would not make it illegal to own or responsibly use portable, battery-powered lasers of 5 mW or more. However, manufacturers could not make or sell these into general commerce in the U.S.

The agency will accept comments for 90 days (until August 2 2014) on the new proposal. FDA will then review the comments. Based on whether it believes any objections or suggestions are valid, the agency could put the guidance into effect (thus imposing their new interpretation), could submit a revised proposal, or could withdraw its proposal. ...
US: FDA proposes defacto ban on selling pointers, handhelds above 5 milliwatts | Bans & Restrictions, Laws, Ways to reduce incidents | LaserPointerSafety.com

Last edited by steve001; 06-10-2014 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:25 AM #19
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

They already limit pointers above 5mW. I did read that article and I agree that they aren't really doing anything new. The real problem there is an executive agency bypassing the legislature in making law, with is irritating in its own right, to be sure.

What would really suck is changing the CFR's to remove the exemption from regulation that currently applies to components. I would hope that such a dick move on FDA's parts would upset the electronics industry enough that they would be forced to back down.

I don't have a problem with them regulating imports and whatnot per se, but I do have a problem with their methods, which are based on fear, control, misinformation and outright lies, and a general attitude of contempt for all citizens, including the honest ones.

I also have a problem with "reputable" websites like optics.org insinuating that we are dangerous criminals out to cause harm, when even a cursory examination of the forum would reveal the exact opposite.

I have a problem with their lack of common sense. I can parade around town waving a filled 5-gallon gas can around and that's fine, but point a laser at a tree and suddenly the sky is falling and the Russians are invading? Doesn't make sense, but that is essentially the stance they're taking.

I think the forum should IP ban all government computers without exception. I realize this would accomplish nothing and that the goons could just spy on us from home, but if they want to pull a bunch of nonsense with us, we should be willing to do it back to them. IP ban all government addresses and let the goons deal with that.
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632nm : Metrologic ML-868 <5mW - Uniphase 155ASL-1 HeNe 0.95mW
543nm : Melles-Griot 05-LGR-193-497 HeNe 2.4mW
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450nm : [C6] Osram PL450 260mW - Lazerer LZCS 145mW - SkyLaser HL450 95mW - SkyLaser LP450 90mW
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:48 AM #20
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Our military members might be caught in the crossfire if Government IP bans start happening.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:49 AM #21
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Marco I would +rep you for this but it wont let me, says I must spread around to rep you again.

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Old 06-10-2014, 04:13 AM #22
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Lasers can be harmful but so can driving a car. Does that mean we stop doing it? Someone can easily decide to stop in the middle of a highway and injure and kill tons of people. That's just my outlook
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:31 AM #23
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by upaa27 View Post
Lasers can be harmful but so can driving a car. Does that mean we stop doing it? Someone can easily decide to stop in the middle of a highway and injure and kill tons of people. That's just my outlook
That's absolutely right upaa27, and I would say the same thing to them. Fortunately we will soon have self driving cars, however I suppose it will take many years to phase out the cars driven by people. Here it isn't even safe to cross the street, someone will try to run you down.

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Old 06-10-2014, 06:37 AM #24
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
They already limit pointers above 5mW. I did read that article and I agree that they aren't really doing anything new. The real problem there is an executive agency bypassing the legislature in making law, with is irritating in its own right, to be sure.

What would really suck is changing the CFR's to remove the exemption from regulation that currently applies to components. I would hope that such a dick move on FDA's parts would upset the electronics industry enough that they would be forced to back down.

I don't have a problem with them regulating imports and whatnot per se, but I do have a problem with their methods, which are based on fear, control, misinformation and outright lies, and a general attitude of contempt for all citizens, including the honest ones.

I also have a problem with "reputable" websites like optics.org insinuating that we are dangerous criminals out to cause harm, when even a cursory examination of the forum would reveal the exact opposite.

I have a problem with their lack of common sense. I can parade around town waving a filled 5-gallon gas can around and that's fine, but point a laser at a tree and suddenly the sky is falling and the Russians are invading? Doesn't make sense, but that is essentially the stance they're taking.

I think the forum should IP ban all government computers without exception. I realize this would accomplish nothing and that the goons could just spy on us from home, but if they want to pull a bunch of nonsense with us, we should be willing to do it back to them. IP ban all government addresses and let the goons deal with that.
Let's be fair to that optics.org article which did show a screen capture of a thread with the words "How to smuggle" in it. Does that reflect well upon this forum?
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Old 06-10-2014, 05:59 PM #25
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

"Smuggle" was a poor choice of words, and not the right way to think about obtaining a laser for one's self. However, I take NO issue with what he was suggesting, namely, mailing the laser in parts (components) and then assembling it later. In fact, in his example he isn't smuggling anything at all - he is purchasing laser components, nothing more.

The FDA wants us to stick to the rules? Fine, let's play by the rules. The 21 CFR 1040 states that laser components are exempt from regulation as long as certain requirements are met. They can't very well get angry if we design our practices to meet and comply with those requirements. As long as we are purchasing/selling laser components only, as defined and set forth under 21 CFR 1040, then per its own rules FDA should leave us alone.

Once a person receives their laser components, it absolutely DOES NOT MATTER what they do with them, even if they assemble said components into a working laser. That is what components are for, aren't they? It doesn't matter if the FDA "doesn't like" you having and operating that laser. They have no say in the matter, because owning and operating the laser responsibly does not violate any law.

It's very clear that the FDA doesn't want to play by the rules. They are not content to respect the exemptions from control that those rules provide, so they're "being creative" with their interpretation of some things in 21 CFR 1040 in order to get their way. For example, claiming that "SLA laser" applies to everything not otherwise mentioned in the law (it doesn't), and using that interpretation as a basis for harassing people.

It's unconstitutional, and not fair play at all, so they can hardly be surprised that people will do things to avoid having to deal with them. But as long as those things comply with the rules, and meet the circumstances that result in exemption from control, then FDA needs to do the right thing and take no action.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:04 PM #26
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
"Smuggle" was a poor choice of words, and not the right way to think about obtaining a laser for one's self. However, I take NO issue with what he was suggesting, namely, mailing the laser in parts (components) and then assembling it later. In fact, in his example he isn't smuggling anything at all - he is purchasing laser components, nothing more.
I know that plug and play lasers or laser kits that contain every necessary part to work are not legal to sell here, but I don't know if that pertains to foreign imports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
The FDA wants us to stick to the rules? Fine, let's play by the rules. The 21 CFR 1040 states that laser components are exempt from regulation as long as certain requirements are met. They can't very well get angry if we design our practices to meet and comply with those requirements. As long as we are purchasing/selling laser components only, as defined and set forth under 21 CFR 1040, then per its own rules FDA should leave us alone.
Many people don't do that. They do import laser devices not in compliance with the rules.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
Once a person receives their laser components, it absolutely DOES NOT MATTER what they do with them, even if they assemble said components into a working laser. That is what components are for, aren't they? It doesn't matter if the FDA "doesn't like" you having and operating that laser. They have no say in the matter, because owning and operating the laser responsibly does not violate any law.
This proposal says nothing about hobbyists. It specifically targets ready made laser devices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
It's very clear that the FDA doesn't want to play by the rules. They are not content to respect the exemptions from control that those rules provide, so they're "being creative" with their interpretation of some things in 21 CFR 1040 in order to get their way. For example, claiming that "SLA laser" applies to everything not otherwise mentioned in the law (it doesn't), and using that interpretation as a basis for harassing people.
Don't blame the FDA, the blame is on all the people that circumvent the laws. If everyone followed the rules the FDA wouldn't feel compelled to move in this direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Polo View Post
It's unconstitutional, and not fair play at all, so they can hardly be surprised that people will do things to avoid having to deal with them. But as long as those things comply with the rules, and meet the circumstances that result in exemption from control, then FDA needs to do the right thing and take no action.
I'm not in agreement with this proposal either. Click on the link second link and read the other links concerning this FDA proposal. The article mentions rebuttals to this proposal can be made to the FDA.
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:19 PM #27
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

What InfinitusEquitas said.



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Old 06-11-2014, 09:06 PM #28
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

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I don't have a problem with them regulating imports and whatnot per se, but I do have a problem with their methods, which are based on fear, control, misinformation and outright lies, and a general attitude of contempt for all citizens, including the honest ones.

Same here.
The bastards have been using these techniques for many, many, decades though, and it's not likely to change in the future.

Using fear, misinformation, and outright lies to control the people seem to be the entire systems modus operandi, and THAT, my friends, is the danger we all face. Not a few miscreants misusing lasers.

Makes me want to just fire them all (yes, every last position in government) and start fresh. They do work for the people, you know, but they'd have you believe otherwise. I'd fire all their asses, and prosecute the ones that knowingly and blatantly piss on the Constitution, and break the laws they themselves made.

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Old 06-15-2014, 02:56 PM #29
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

The more ways they try to control us, the more ways we will find around the restriction. That's one thing us as humans excel at, the ability to adapt, improvise and associate. This whole encroaching police state thing used to scare me but it doesn't any longer. In fact, I think the fun is just getting started. Don't let it scare you or back you into a corner people. That's exactly what they want. Instead, spread your wings, tell them to fuck themselves and fly away.
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Old 06-15-2014, 05:45 PM #30
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

God all this crap annoys me.. When i was looking up that optics.org page i came across this

Never mind pilots, this green laser is so powerful it can dazzle satellites - and it's freely on sale | Mail Online

YOU ARE KIDDING RIGHT!!!!! Who ever said it would "dazzle" an astronaut?? From what i remember about when those uni students did that experiment the astronaut who "saw" it claimed he saw an extremely faint green glow for less than a second!! The students also needed 2 x 1 MILLION LUMEN commercial "daylight" light setups, pointed in the sky so the ISS could pinpoint where to look!! Because if they didn't have that beacon they wouldn't have had a snowballs chance in hell of seeing it!!
And this article was from TODAY!! not two years ago, TODAY!!

I love the part where they say "Spider 3 Krypton - currently under review by the Guinness Book of Records as the brightest handheld laser on Earth" made me physically laugh out loud!! I am so sick of this SHIT! Grrr gets my goat!


ALSO,

IMO it is WL that started all this CRAP! I remember when we didn't have laser laws in australia.. Then came along WL.. BAM! We get some of the most harsh laser laws on earth! In my state you can't legally own a laser with an output of more than 1mW!

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Old 06-15-2014, 10:06 PM #31
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

What KapHn8d said.


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What InfinitusEquitas said.



/c
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Old 06-15-2014, 11:20 PM #32
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Default Re: You never know who's watching this forum

Just because I'm paranoid. Doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

I'm betting people do monitor the forum. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
What better way to get info for public scare tactics to get legislation passed. I'm sure they turn a blind eye toward the fact we promote responsible use and it makes us twice as mad when people do stupid things. We get countless hours and hundreds of dollars tied up in our builds, we don't do that to go do stupid stuff with them.
Honestly I'm having a hard time grasping what their agenda is with all the hate towards handhelds. There are even other laser enthusiasts that hate the handheld builders. I don't understand why except a hater is born to hate.
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