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Old 10-10-2011, 11:43 PM #17
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

I dont think you should worry about it at all.

The checkbox marked indicates that there is 'doubt the item can legallly cross the border'. This does not mean that it has been proven that the laser is illegal to own or import, just that they want to investigate it further.

Since germany is part of the eurozone as much as holland or any other european country is, there isn't likely to be any reason to stop you from importing this laser. It is not illegal to own the device. The only problem is when you would market the device as a consumer good that should be safe to use.

I have good hopes you will receive your laser after the investigation they are conducting at the moment. There is no legal basis to confiscate the item, apart from trying to import something of value without declaring it for import taxes and vat.


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Old 10-10-2011, 11:47 PM #18
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

@honeyx
Going to a lawyer now is to early, there is no documented case of a criminal charge for buying a laser in germany. There is no way he can get it back because it has no warning label and does not match the safety requirements like a key switch and a closable window for the beam.

The customs know exactly what they are doing, but they are very fussy and take it with the smallest reason they could find, even a missing CE-Sign is enough...
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:01 AM #19
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

I know and you are right. All he made is legal and they are trying illegal tricks to prevent people from buying lasers out of Germany. Nevertheless if he accepts their acting and wonīt do anyting, they will want him to pay a fine. So either he will pay this fine and wonīt see his laser again, or he will have to go to an lawer and first pay for him. Finally if he will win the case he will get his laser and the money back.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:05 AM #20
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeyx View Post
Dude. Iīm also from Germany. So here some facts. Owning a laser is not forbidden. Just selling lasers above 1mW is forbidden here. You were not selling it but bought it elsewhere and you didnīt do it to sell it further. The customs obviously did understand this right somehow wrong.

I have no clue where you bought the laser, but it was not a good idea as they labeled it as a laser and therefore it took their attention. Now you are in a unfortunally sutuation. I would suggest you to go to a lawyer. Either way you will have to spend some money for it.
This makes about the most sense just to know your actual rights.
You can also wait until customs gives you some written feedback
as to your situation and then seek a lawyer's advice...

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Old 10-11-2011, 02:52 AM #21
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

I think you need to ask this on laserfreak.de where you will get a educated answer. You do need a lawyer.

There does not always have to be a law, most nations have a catch-all charge, and all it takes is a minister or secretary to declare a material as harmful.

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Old 10-11-2011, 03:00 AM #22
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

We need to get some lawers to join LPF asap for just this sort of situation!
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:45 AM #23
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeyx View Post
I have no clue where you bought the laser, but it was not a good idea as they labeled it as a laser and therefore it took their attention..
Who said it was marked as laser. Because it was not. I am unsure how they came to the assumption it was laser related unless it just went under a random screening and someone knew what they were looking at with all the parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadEye View Post
Im not really sure if they were authorized to let him build it. Im no lawyer but Im curious if you could proceed legally there?
That is what I was thinking but I am not an expert on German customs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadEye View Post
The customs know exactly what they are doing, but they are very fussy and take it with the smallest reason they could find, even a missing CE-Sign is enough...
I am not sure you need a warning label on just parts like diodes or modules do you?
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Old 10-11-2011, 07:02 AM #24
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Could always order a survival laser and ask them to ship it in two parts on different weeks and remove any sign/instructions about the strength of it. And make sure they label it as torch not laser.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:19 PM #25
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

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Who said it was marked as laser. Because it was not. I am unsure how they came to the assumption it was laser related unless it just went under a random screening and someone knew what they were looking at with all the parts.
Sorry, but did I miss something? Is this a laser you send him? I was reading the letter and assumed it was labeled as a Spider-Fire X-03 Laserpointer.

As far it comes to customs. German customs are not allowed to open letters and parcels due to a law called "Briefgeheimnis". Thats why they wanted him to open it and to show whats inside. He must open it if they want him to do so but he does not have to show them whats really inside. This is a common trick german customs are doing as this way he showed them himself what was inside. He also didnīt have to agree to assemble it, but he agreed and finally was holding a full functionally laser in his hand.

If he would know this before, he just would have to open it, look inside it and say: "Yes, thatīs the flashlight I expected" and they would have to let him go with the laser.

They might then ask him why he doesnīt want them to show it and he just would have to say itīs because of the "Briefgeheimnis".

They simply fucked him. Sorry for this word, but it simply is like said.

Last edited by honeyx; 10-11-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:29 PM #26
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Hello Guys,

I just called the customs because I wanted to know where it stands that class 4 lasers are banned in Germany. I told them that I just found out that you are not allowed to sell them and use it in public places but you can own them if you want.

They told me that this is not true. They said to me "If you have a class 4 laser, you are allowed to own it but you are not allowed to import/buy/sell/use them im puplic places. Thats why we need to test the laser because it seems to have more than 1mW."

They also said to me that it is very hard to get this laser back because it does not fit with the Norm. They complain it that there is no warning on the laser etc.

I dont really know what to do right now. That sucks.

Any Idea?

Best regards,
Dennis
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:11 PM #27
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Try calling them back and tell them that you purchased all the components necessary to build a laser. All the components you imported were all legal to import and they should not have made you build a laser there with the legal components turning it into a illegal to import item which is was not originally. Tell them they knew they could not confiscate it the way it was and they made you turn it into something they could. See what they say. Probably will get you nowhere but it is worth a try.

Last edited by DTR; 10-11-2011 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:32 PM #28
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Yeah, I agree there with DTR.
You need to claim that you were afraid of the Customs officers and that they coerced you into doing something that you wouldn't normally do. (They made you open it and put it together.)
At no time did they inform you of your legal rights !

Most countries have some form of free legal advice. Many have programs where you can get 30 minutes of a lawyers time for free. Look into it and find out.
It really sounds like they are playing the major intimidation card on you and hoping that you will let them take it because of fear !
If you have any sort of other reason or even a good chance of another reason for having the equipment sent to you (as a gift), and if it came in pieces that were not simply functional, then you should be considered as not being able to be breaking any laws. You couldn't control how something is sent, even if you had an idea what was being sent.
As long as you don't admit to try to do something illegal with the item them there is no reason to prevent you from having it. As stated, possessing it isn't illegal.
The real battle is in keeping all your statements as open ended as possible. Don't agree or state anything specifically. Try to keep declarations to "What if I were to say it is for...". For example, "What if I were to say that I asked someone to send me some parts that I could incorporate into a home built projector unit that I planned to eventually get certified through proper channels ?"
Then you add that the Customs officials tricked you into doing something that you were uncomfortable doing and that they didn't inform you of your legal rights when they did it...
Even if it didn't go to a legal process it could be very embarrassing for the Customs to have the story go public. I think that there would be a lot of support for a member of the general public being "strong armed" by a branch of the Government.

Just my opinion though.
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Old 10-11-2011, 04:43 PM #29
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fischyyy View Post
Hello Guys,

I just called the customs because I wanted to know where it stands that class 4 lasers are banned in Germany. I told them that I just found out that you are not allowed to sell them and use it in public places but you can own them if you want.

They told me that this is not true. They said to me "If you have a class 4 laser, you are allowed to own it but you are not allowed to import/buy/sell/use them im puplic places. Thats why we need to test the laser because it seems to have more than 1mW."

They also said to me that it is very hard to get this laser back because it does not fit with the Norm. They complain it that there is no warning on the laser etc.

I dont really know what to do right now. That sucks.

Any Idea?

Best regards,
Dennis
You made a few big mistakes by agreeing to all of this and assembling the laser. If you turned it on in their office, you used it in a public place. The problem with that is they made you to turn it on, but their excuse is you agreed and turned it on. Buying the laser from elsewhere didnīt happen on German territory and also was not in public. ALso it was not a fully functional laserunit as long you didnīt assemble it. So their explanation is not correct. You simply didnīt buy or import a fully functional laserpointer, but just parts of a laserpointer. Regarding the Norms this is only ture if you are willing to use it in public places.

Calling them back wonīt help a lot now. Itīs all correct what you DTR said, but the german customs simply wonīt take it serious now unless his lawyer talks to them and points this all out.
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:23 PM #30
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

There seems to be enough information here to push it further without having a lawyer yet.
Customs has told him that he can legally own it.
As a gift, as OEM pieces, or even as a complete unit he can legally have it according to the Customs agents own admissions.
So then the questions that need to be answered seem to be :
How much power is the output ?
Why isn't there a warning label ?

As the unit was shipped in a state of non-functionality the simple answers would be :
There is no power output as the unit wouldn't turn on.
Without any output there is no need for a warning label.

Then it would be up to Customs to PROVE that you were going to do something illegal with it after that point. Just because you know how to put it together and turn it on isn't proof that you were going to do so.
As I stated before, what if you were going to do something else with the parts you received.
There are many reason for having a higher powered laser. Beam splitting for any of those functions greatly diminishes the overall output. The quality of reflectors (mirrors) can seriously knock down the output. Passing through dichros for beam combining will lessen the output. Smoke or fog/mist will cause losses too. Combinations of these could make the actual output a fraction of the starting quantity.
And that is all based on the ASSUMPTION that you were going to drive or power the unit fully to begin with. If you were possibly planning to underpower the unit for your own safe enjoyment then there isn't any way to prove that you are knowingly doing anything wrong.
For Customs to seize the goods they will need to prove that you are going to do something wrong.
Don't admit to anything. Don't be afraid of their supposed superiority. For every legal clause they can pull out there will be exceptions and loopholes.
Make them state as much as you can while not agreeing to anything. They will try everything they can to get you to admit something that they can use against you. If you don't agree to anything, or if you can suggest that they "intimidated" you into doing something, then they are out of luck. There won't be any legal thing they can do to you.

But that doesn't mean that your name won't be added to some sort of "list".

Last edited by ShortyInCanada; 10-11-2011 at 05:24 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:43 PM #31
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Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

Hey Guys,

these damn bastards are getting me so angry. They said to me that it was obviously a laser pointer and I already told it to them that it was a laserpointer. These damn bastards are so stupid I just wanted to say that I never bought a complete laser. I bought the parts but they are just saying that. What can I do? I really dont want to get a criminal complaint. Are they so stupid? They asked me yesterday "What is in the package?" and I said "A laserpointer" but is that enough? I dont believe them. I am a 20 years old student and would never do something wrong with this laser. I bought safety glasses etc. I just want to have fun burning things...I would never hurt something or someone. Why are they so mean?

Thanks for your help guys. Very nice and friendly.

regards,
Dennis

Quote:
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You made a few big mistakes by agreeing to all of this and assembling the laser. If you turned it on in their office, you used it in a public place. The problem with that is they made you to turn it on, but their excuse is you agreed and turned it on. Buying the laser from elsewhere didnīt happen on German territory and also was not in public. ALso it was not a fully functional laserunit as long you didnīt assemble it. So their explanation is not correct. You simply didnīt buy or import a fully functional laserpointer, but just parts of a laserpointer. Regarding the Norms this is only ture if you are willing to use it in public places.

Calling them back wonīt help a lot now. Itīs all correct what you DTR said, but the german customs simply wonīt take it serious now unless his lawyer talks to them and points this all out.
I never turned it on myself. They turned it on.
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:44 PM #32
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Cologne, Germany
Posts: 391
Rep Power: 519
honeyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond reputehoneyx has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Will I get a criminal complaint?

So far this all is correct. But there is one big problem. He already used it in a public place by turning it on in their office. For them it doesnīt matter it were them who intimidated him to do it or just his girlfriend. What matters is he already used it in a public place, no matter why. Thats the main reason he will need a lawer.


Edit. Ok might be they turned it on but you gave them your laser to play with. For them it also dosnīt matter you pushed the button or someone else. What matters it was used in a public place.

Last edited by honeyx; 10-11-2011 at 05:46 PM.
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