So sick of the government

Gabe said:

ElectricPlasma, the ownership of a >5mW portable laser isn't illegal, just the importation and sale of them I believe. Please give me some sources if I'm wrong because I'm probably, but I'm pretty sure building them ain't illegal. Yet.

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Oops! I guess I should research before I post

Pulled this off of Wikipedia, seems like you're correct; says nothing about actual ownership of a >5mW laser.

"New regulations controlling the importation and sale of laser pointers (portable, battery powered) have been established in Canada in 2011 and are governed by Health Canada using the Consumer Protection Act for the prohibition of sale of Class 3B (IEC) or higher power lasers to "consumers" as defined in the Consumer Protection Act."

Weird, if they allow ownership of high powered portable lasers, why are they not allowed to be imported? :wtf:

ElectricPlasma said:

Weird, if they allow ownership of high powered portable lasers, why are they not allowed to be imported? :wtf:

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Because often the ones smart enough to put em together are smart enough not to misuse them

You should be careful when reviewing legislation like this.

If it mentions consumers specifically, this would basically mean that over 5 mW devices cannot be sold in stores for the purpose of presentations or annoying cats. This is all well, since we don't want to have people shooting eachothers eyes out or setting cats on fire waving around class IV lasers as if they were toys.

Importation limitations are in line with this: you are, as i understand, not allowed to import more powerful lasers if you intend to sell them as a consumer product.

It is a pretty fine line to walk, but if you wanted to import a more powerful laser you could still do so, just not market as a consumer/retail item. If you declared 'industrial component' on the customs information this legislation would not apply.

Technically this situation already exists in the EU. Selling class IV lasers as presentation tools or such is not permitted because they are unsafe products for that function. Selling them as components for dvd writers, laser cutters and such is no problem.

Difference might be how customs deal with these things in practice. If they are alarmed by the word 'laser' you could declare them as 'industrial light source' or something similar - perfectly legal if your intent is not to resell them to the consumer market.

Benm said:

You should be careful when reviewing legislation like this.

If it mentions consumers specifically, this would basically mean that over 5 mW devices cannot be sold in stores for the purpose of presentations or annoying cats. This is all well, since we don't want to have people shooting eachothers eyes out or setting cats on fire waving around class IV lasers as if they were toys.

Importation limitations are in line with this: you are, as i understand, not allowed to import more powerful lasers if you intend to sell them as a consumer product.

It is a pretty fine line to walk, but if you wanted to import a more powerful laser you could still do so, just not market as a consumer/retail item. If you declared 'industrial component' on the customs information this legislation would not apply.

Technically this situation already exists in the EU. Selling class IV lasers as presentation tools or such is not permitted because they are unsafe products for that function. Selling them as components for dvd writers, laser cutters and such is no problem.

Difference might be how customs deal with these things in practice. If they are alarmed by the word 'laser' you could declare them as 'industrial light source' or something similar - perfectly legal if your intent is not to resell them to the consumer market.

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quote of laser importation and sale:

for the prohibition of sale of Class 3B (IEC) or higher power lasers to "consumers" as defined in the Consumer Protection Act.

quote of consumer protection act:

In this Act,

“consumer” means an individual acting for personal, family or household purposes and does not include a person who is acting for business purposes

Hm, well I supposed you could get away with saying it's for a business but if you got caught lying to the government... That's some pretty serious sh!t.

From what I know, a consumer is a person who is making decisions based on their personal needs/requirements, a non-consumer would be like a person running global sourcing that they make importation decisions for their company, pretty much a decision based on business.

I'm no expert, but hey, there's my two cents

That could be vastly different between canada and europe.

As a european business owner i get to see the difference: there is a vast body of legislation protecting consumers when purchasing something online. This includes the right to return any item for a full refund without stating a reason. As a business (owner) you do not get that right.

What actually makes the difference between an consumer and a business can be somewhat vague.

I guess what ultimately matters is the intended application. If you want to shine it around as if it were a prestentation tool, a class IV laser would not be a legal product to put on the market.

If you wanted it to cut cardboard in a controlled environment it probably would be legal.

Similar problems have arisen with the posession of knives: government wanted to ban people carrying large ones in public, but people like catering chefs need to be able to move them around to do their work.

The net result of all this is that you can posess something in certain situations that you otherwise cannot. This goes as far as baseball bats which are perfectly legal to posess when going to a match, but not when going to a riot.

Lasers have some problems in legislation, similar to say chainsaws. There is no real problem with posessing either, but if you go run around the streets firing one up you are likely to get into legal problems.

:crackup: A baseball bat is certainly not something to take to a riot, I can only imagine what would happen if you took a chainsaw to a riot, I think that person would be shot so many times that they would have a hard time identifying the body. I am surprised I have not yet seen video of someone taking a laser to a riot, let's hope it stays that way.

Alan

Moses Grass said:

Maybe I'm thinking out of the box ,but if our $20 laser printers are as deadly as the government says ,then why don't they buy up a box of them and train the soldiers to point them up at the passing enemy aircraft. ? Wow imagine how much money they would save?

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the real reason they're making such an hysteria over this is due to fact that you might blind their drone camera.

Pi R Squared said:

:crackup: A baseball bat is certainly not something to take to a riot, I can only imagine what would happen if you took a chainsaw to a riot, I think that person would be shot so many times that they would have a hard time identifying the body. I am surprised I have not yet seen video of someone taking a laser to a riot, let's hope it stays that way.

Alan

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I guess each likes his own kind of riot. But if you show up at one waving a bat around it's quite clear you're not there for a game of baseball (unless it was in a baseball stadium i suppose).

I've seen some footage of lasers being used in riots. They can obviously be used to blind the other party to some degree, but afaik this doesnt result in permanent injury very often. Perhaps people don't really have time to stare into laser beams when molotov cocktails (or rocket propelled chainsaws) are flying around their heads

The law of laser pointer is getting strict all over the world. I wish everyone can use laser pointer safely and don't pointing them to aircraft otherwise we can no longer have this hobby.

Ben

Ah, it's probably a matter of time before the laws for laser pointers in the U.S. prohibit laser pointers at any power, only allowed for tools. Of course, that is a slippery slope as pointers can be tools too.

I have one remark about a statement posted in the thread:

but if you got caught lying to the government... That's some pretty serious sh!t.

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The government lies to us, the people who allows them to have power over us on a regular basis simply because they are above us, due to OUR choice to allow it, coupled with their ability to act with impunity due to the power they have.... We have an illusion going on in this country that the people we elect to "represent" us are not above us or the law, that's false, if you put someone in charge of the law and vote them to represent you, you have placed them ABOVE you as well as the law by that very act, IF they have enough power. Who has the most power as an individual in the USA? Maybe the president? Has he been lying to us and making illegal changes far beyond what executive privilege can allow by law? YES HE HAS... Why? Because we put him in a position of power where he can get away with it and no one is stopping him! I believe his example will result in others having less respect for the law and due to this more and more corruption in our government. Even for myself, I have less respect for laws after our own president can break it with impunity, lies to us and manipulates us to get what he wants. Well, we the people have been honest for the most part, but with that kind of example, I expect a trickle down of that morality to cause far more damage than he has himself through those acts.

It's time for change, actually, far beyond the time for change. I am not sure our system can work for us anymore, only take from us, but I don't have a solution in mind right now either, except perhaps to start with a flat tax for EVERYONE and EVERY company to help level the playing field and stop the fricken hidden taxes on everything except perhaps alcohol, tobacco, and non medicinal pot. One thing that miffs me off is having to pay for government services, i.e. licensing etc., we already pay for government, at this rate we will be paying on top of our taxes for most of government function someday. Want to make a police report? That's fifty dollars please, this is what is coming. If you research the real tax rate we pay you will see we have become slaves to the government, to the system who allows us just enough of a portion of our earnings to keep the system going while they print money like wild to feed into the stock market in attempt to keep our economy from crashing on their watch. Well, time is coming for that crash, it can't be avoided and that's when we have the opportunity to affect deep sweeping changes with our government, maybe, because they KNOW THIS and have been preparing to fight back to allow their buddies to stay in power. Caution though, in this world it seems when you take down a bad guy (i.e. lying power grubbing politician) who clawed their way to the top, due to the vacuum, someone who couldn't otherwise do so themselves can be allowed a way in, but will be far worse.

Quite the little anti-government what is wrong with the world rant a?

What is the best answer to these problems? It starts with us individually, it is true, we can't change the world without starting at home first. Be the change in the world you want to see, liberation is ours if we choose to live it.

Oh, your idea of paying costs for a police report isn't that crazy.

In the netherlands they introduced an administration fee for fines a couple of years ago. Originally it was 7 euros, but in 2016 it will be 9.

These fees are charged on all traffic fines and smaller crimes, from speeding to littering.

Also, they are applied from the get go: you get the fine including the fee right away, so it's not a fee that has anything to do with actually collecting the fine. If you don't pay on time the fine will actually increase by 50%, then 100% on top of that, after wich you can be held hostage in jail if you don't pay.

Apart from the principle, the amount seems excessive and has never been explained. What other company has an administrative cost of 7 to 9 euros per invoice? The whole process is highly automated so i doubt the actual cost would be over 1 euro (for printing, paper, envelope, postage stamp combined).

Representative democracy fails big time on matters like these - i'm sure that there is no majority in the population that would support excessive handling fees for traffic fines, nor for how high these fines actually are (driving 30 km/h over the limit on a deserted highway carries a higher fine than shoplifting here).

Interestingly direct democracy has become a more feasible option in recent years. Representative democracy is something that mostly came about because it was not feasible to have a popular vote on everything, but the internet has changed that substantially. We now have the technology to have a referendum on small subjects and could easily ask the opinion of the public in a monthly referendum where several topcis are adressed in one quick session.

The government here seems to think that online reporting is good enough for filing taxes, so i presume it must be reliable enough for direct democracy as well.

Obviously the questions should be worded correctly so you don't get a big vote for "free beer and zero tax for everyone", but that can be done. You ask if a billion is to be allocated to road construction, foreign aid or not to be spent and returned to taxpayers. You may get your roads if people are bothered by the condition it's in, though i doubt foreign aid would seem much cashflow given those options.

We do pay way too much for government services here. We don't get billed for calling 911 if you need the police although we do pay a 911 tax, at least here in Washington we do, but if you call 911 for a medical emergency or fire then you get a huge bill from the fire department. Why is that not paid for by our taxes? Fire districts are mostly separate from local government so they should be funded by county and state governments and the taxes we pay to them. I read recently that some fire districts are experimenting with the idea that everyone will pay a fee to subscribe to service and if you don't pay then they will not respond to a 911 call! Does anyone here live in an area where this is taking place yet? Let me tell you what happened with my mother, she is 91 and I will take care of her for as long as I will still live. She had a stroke in March of 2012, sometime before that I moved here to take care of her because it was no longer safe for her to live alone. She had a real bad irregular heart beat one day and I had no one to drive us to the hospital so I called 911, her 3 day stay in Providence hospital Everett Washington cost over $30,000, the bill from the fire department we got in the mail a few days later was over $700 (not paid for by insurance). Months later she got very sick and was dizzy could not stand and nausea vomiting, it turned out to be an ear problem that I won't try to explain here but again I could get no one to drive us to the hospital so I called 911, guess what the bill was, $911, no I am not making that up. Later when she had the stroke I was able to get someone to drive us to the hospital, that hospital charges between $5000 and $10,000 a day depending on the situation, how can it cost that much? Weeks later I left her alone when I went shopping, it was in the summer time, she was sitting in a chair outside, my next door neighbors came over to check on her and thought she was having another stroke and called 911, she was having a "transient ischemic attack" that is basically a very mild stoke. I forget the exact amount of the bill from the fire department but it was about $1800, I never paid it and it went to collection and will never be paid. Months later my next door neighbors had to call 911 (the woman has a heart problem), they were billed over $3800 by the fire department!

I will never ever no matter what ever call 911 again for any medical emergency, I don't even like hospitals anyway, I find it very unpleasant to even set foot inside one. Everyone I know has been instructed that if anything happens to me they are not to call 911 until after I am dead.

Alan

Pi R Squared said:

We do pay way too much for government services here.
...
I will never ever no matter what ever call 911 again for any medical emergency, I don't even like hospitals anyway, I find it very unpleasant to even set foot inside one. Everyone I know has been instructed that if anything happens to me they are not to call 911 until after I am dead.

Alan

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This is just insane. I don't know the full extent of it, but I'm very glad health care isn't privatized here. I don't know about government services like the fire department though, but I'm pretty sure they don't cost civilians to use either. I'll ask someone later. It's things like this that make me momentarily lose faith in how our world is being run. It really seems like in most places, especially the states, the richest have managed to set up a system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and you can't climb the ladder consistently, if ever. How, hypothetically, would America get out of a state like this, without a civil war? To get an honest government who actually wants what's best for everyone? I just don't know.

Why are you being billed by the fire department for ambulance 911 calls? Does the fire department operate/own ambulances out there? Here they are operated by the hospitals afaik.

Here you don't get billed by the fire department even if you call them to put out an actual fire... unless maybe you set it yourself in gross neglect. People have been billed for hoax calls that resulted in a response, no problem with that.

Benm said:

Why are you being billed by the fire department for ambulance 911 calls? Does the fire department operate/own ambulances out there? Here they are operated by the hospitals afaik.

Here you don't get billed by the fire department even if you call them to put out an actual fire... unless maybe you set it yourself in gross neglect. People have been billed for hoax calls that resulted in a response, no problem with that.

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No ambulances in the U.S. Are operated by hospitals as far as I know. The medic aid units with the paramedics that respond to 911 calls are operated by the fire departments. There are however privately owned ambulance companies that transport some patients, here if it is an urgent life threatening situation, then the fire department medic aid unit will transport the person, in many cases though an ambulance will be called to transport the person, their bills are also astronomically high. If the person is in immediate danger of dying then they can also call in a helicopter to airlift them to the hospital, this adds about $30,000 to your bill, that was several years ago, it could be much more by now.

Here a hoax 911 call is a very serious criminal offense, you don't get billed you get arrested and it will be the end of your life as you knew it.

Alan

Oic, the whole US healthcare system just seems odd to me.

Here ambulances and their crews are operated by hospitals. Cost can be charged to the patient but is fully covered by health insurance in most cases, including trauma helicoper rescue if required.

In emergency situations patients are not usually charged though, but this is something paid for by (quite high) taxes in general.

In some cases patients see the bill for ambulance services, for example if they need transportation by ambulance from one hospital to another. Charges for that are pricey, probably around $1000 an hour, but that includes the actual ambulance, driver, paramedics, supplies and equipment used. If such transport is medically required it usually is covered by health insurance as well.

I'm not sure to what degree high taxes weigh up to the risk of getting high bills, but the US medical system seems very expensive (and not very effective) regardless of how it's paid for.