So sick of the government

Hi there gozart, you can always move to the US and enjoy are ever evolving totalitarian state! I suspect that it won't be long before the global warming initiative changes US laws. Our citizens will have to decrease their intake of beans, cabbage and other items that increase flatus....along with our bovine friends (I have quite a few cow friends from my TN days,) you will pay a fart carbon tax. Our ass holes will have meters on them!

Andrew124C41 said:

Hi there gozart, you can always move to the US and enjoy are ever evolving totalitarian state! I suspect that it won't be long before the global warming initiative changes US laws. Our citizens will have to decrease their intake of beans, cabbage and other items that increase flatus....along with our bovine friends (I have quite a few cow friends from my TN days,) you will pay a fart carbon tax. Our ass holes will have meters on them!

Click to expand...

The US will never tax or inhibit the free flow of hot foul air escaping from orifices unless they find an exception for those in government.

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Lobsters are clueless after the lid goes on too.

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The US subsidizes the tobacco industry. They get the money back in taxes (sin tax) on the sale of the addictive carcinogenic products.

They don't put the sellers in jail if they catch them, unless its for not paying the taxes.

They don't ban liquor sales either (They DID try though...), despite, again, it being addictive and responsible for deaths...and its also heavily taxed (sin taxed)

So, a its legal, and government taxed enterprise, if you want to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes, but (mostly) illegal to use other (Untaxed) addictive intoxicants and health hazards.

The argument that its illegal because its addictive and bad for you, etc, used against untaxed versions of this stuff, doesn't hold its liquor when compared to the same or worse health problems associated with tobacco and alcohol.

So, I am NOT saying that it's a good idea to guzzle grain alcohol until too blind to find a place to get more cigs, while shooting up with heroin with dirty needles borrowed from the garbage dump at the AIDS CLINIC...

....and drinking 2-liter sugary soda's to wash down your bacon wrapped deep fried in trans fat twinkies.


I'm saying it's a double standard to essentially say it's ONLY OK to do it if the gov can tax the everlovin crap out of it.

I think they said it well. JL RIP

There currenly is NO legislation around posession of lasers in the netherlands, at all. You are free to own a 1 mW cat toy or a megawatt chemically pumped laser if you please.

Obviously using them to endanger traffic IS punishable, but so is throwing a shitload of thumbtacks on a highway.

As the netherlands are part of the schengen area, any ban on importing laser devices would have to apply to the entire european union. It really is not likely that this will happen anytime soon. One thing the EU does is ban selling >5 mW products as 'consumer laser pointers', similar to how extention leads need to be able to withstand voltages and currents etc.

If the application is not a consumer product those regulations do not apply though: safety requirements apply to end consumer products only, not to components. In practice this means you can sell a 500 mW laser diode, but not a complete device that shines that light into the consumers eyes. If it shines it onto a disc in an enclosed case such as a dvd writer there is no problem selling that dvd writer, perhaps requiring a warning sticker that it is unsafe to operate the device with any covers removed.

Dam shame! Sorry to hear that man. Stay inside with them so you don't wind up being made an example out of!

I'm 99% convined that pointing lasers at aircraft is only dangerous because the pigs will send you to jail for it, and that the vast majority of other "dangers" are in fact lies. How many planes have laser pointers brought down again, I think it was fifty or thereabouts? Oh, wait no it wasn't, it was zero.

Yeah, sure, maybe with enough power and focus you could damage a pilot's eyes. Find me a case where the they describe the injury in sufficient detail that one could suggest laser damage. LOTS of articles claim that "a pilot suffered eye damage" but they never tell you what that damage is. It's just "eye injury" or similar vague term; considering who is making those statements (pigs, other useless govt employee tax dollar leeches, etc.) it leads me to believe they are highly distorted if not outright lies.

Whatever, if a laser ever *does* take down a plane, then I hope the FDA and DEA leadership are all on it, and I hope whoever pointed the laser is given a medal and a pardon. The FDA and DEA are responsible for the deaths/murders of untold thousands, if not millions of people, on top of actively working to erode our liberty one privilege at a time. Every single person working for them is complicit and guilty as hell.

eta: Don't misunderstand, it IS stupid to point a laser at a plane but let's be real about what makes it stupid. It's stupid to do because we KNOW that doing it will yield zero benefit for you, PLUS you will get a few years in jail. Not because doing it is likely to hurt someone. The pigs need to justify their paychecks by creating more crime. The FDA garbage folk need to justify theirs as well, but they can't go after toxic drugs like Celebrex (STILL killing people!!!) due to Big Pharma's political power and bribes. Lasers/aircraft is an easy one for them because lasers have very few people to defend them, and the public is stupid, indeed well-and truly-retarded, to the point that you can convince them of almost anything if you make it scary enough. As a result, both pigs and FDA win: Pigs can do their fear-mongering and gestapo tactics and get paid, the FDA sub-humans can write more overreaching regulatory law and also get paid.

ETA #2: The other reason I hate news stories about lasers and airplanes is that for a given stupid person there will always be someone even more stupid. The former gets the bright idea to point a laser at an airplane. The latter hears about it on the news and, and for reasons unfathomable to all but the persistently vegetative, decides to pull a copy-cat incident. Because, god damn, the original idea was so brilliant and totally cool, man; the guy who did it is one bad-ass hell of a rebel who is totally cool for trying to STICK IT TO THE MAN. I wish I could say I knew that no one would ever be dumb enough to actually do that... well, I wish for other things too, and it just seems to be that such wishes are generally not granted. oh well, so it is.

Afaik there never has been any incident in which a laser pointer (partly) caused a crash so far. If laser pointers could solely bring down airplanes half of al queda would be standing near airports shooting them down by the dozen.

This does not mean you should point lasers at aircraft though. It may not cause crashes, may not blind pilots, but it's really annoying, imagine having to drive home with someone pointing one in your face all the way.

Also, you cannot know that a landing aircraft is in good condition. One could have severe instrument failure and actually rely on a visual approach to land, in which case a laser would be a huge additional danger. This is not common for large airliners, but it does happen once in a while and from the ground you cannot be certain about it.

As far as purposely crashing planes with laser pointers: they are about as good as hammers for this - try to throw one into an engine on a departing plane and see what happens - larger is better i've heard ;p

@marcopolo and benm

At altitude I doubt permanent harm, depending upon the stage of flight, flight conditions, particular approach, and number of pilots, I think there are serious potential problems. As it is, at night above 5,000 feet I used to use oxygen since vision deteriorates above this altitude. We use red lights of course. At altitude, probably no big deal unless you are a single pilot flying a GA aircraft, like a 172 with no autopilot. In a dense area...maybe very small change of problem air to air collision.

Having flown a Cessna 210 every week between Manassas, VA and Youngstown, PA through the worst instrument meteorological conditions the US has to offer short of bush pilot Alaska stuff, precision landing with a minimum of 200 feet...I think one could have a really big problem.

The very first time I flew an approach after getting my IFR...totally unplanned...weather went down...all flights Baltimore/DC...three major airports....during the 4 to 7 pm push divert to Dulles....I am circling hagerstown....trying to read the approach plates...fuel going down to reserves after 3 plus hour flight from Nashville....I don't want the paperwork of declaring an emergency and telling control critical fuel he sequences me between two "heavies" (read potential air turbulence) and asks me if I will give him 160 I on final....stable approach is 70...mind you...while I had practiced...never actually did this and my planned first was no less than 600...the altimeter is unwinding like you see in a crash movie....in order to land I have to see the runway environment at DH (decision height)...if I don't declare a missed approach and re-sequence...not good....I won't go into all the gory details of uncoupling the auto-pilot and suddenly going 20 degrees off course....i was never so happy to see the "Christmas tree"....what you see from the cockpit when you are at the end of the runway....thanked my instructor that night....

Can you imagine some idiot shining a laser at me just as I broke through the clouds at 200, 400, or 600....that ground comes up very fast at 160 and trying to slow down quickly is not easy either....all attention required.

There are a lot of GA (general aviation aircraft,) as well as charter flights. The former are mostly single pilot. On approach in particular, a laser shined in your eye could really result in disaster.

The visual (River) approach to Reagan National is one of the most dangerous in the nation. For emergencies I used to practice it at night (without landing...$100 landing fee if wheels touch.) DCA River Approach Plate RWY 19 I did it at 70 KIA (which would be normal on a long, straight final,) slowing down to between 60 and 65 on short final which in the sequence you are about to see occurs at over 130 KIA. The hard right turn occurs about 3/4 mile from the end of RWY 19. I warn you, you might get dizzy watching this. If you really want to enjoy and learn something from the ride, copy all of the following down before you watch because it goes by quickly.

At 1:13 you will see the Key Bridge immediately below you connecting Roslyn, VA with Georgtown. At about 12 o'clock, the prohibited area P-56 (the mall/White House not seen) comes into view...the Washington Monument. At 1:16 as the aircraft rolls and turns right the big building right on the DC side of the river is the Kennedy Center. The Watergate complex (across the street from where I called home for 3 years when I first came to DC lol,) is to its left. Imagine that somebody whether during the day or worse at night aims a laser straight into the cockpit from there or any of the other buildings. Remember, the pilot is flying hands on using visual references. At 1:37 Roosevelt and Memorial bridges come into view less than 2 miles from the runway threshold. At ~160 mph this distance would be covered in less than 80 seconds, less than the amount of time to recover from a laser strike. It is entirely possible that the pilot could lose control and the flight end up crashing into any part of the prohibited area or Foggy Bottom...State Department for example.

At 1.55 the two spans of the 14th street bridge north span first, can be seen. A laser strike could emanate from the Virginia side bank of the Potomac where there is a bike path and park.

At 2:19 you are crossing the north span of the 14th street bridge where Air Florida Flight 90 collided before falling into the Potomac (more about that to come.) The Blue, Orange, and recently finished Silver Line of the DC Metro go over the bridge following the South span. (Probably no fools with lasers lurk on the bridges...but who knows what crazies come out with the full moon.) This landmark is critical because it is after crossing the final bridge that a hard right bank/turn is made less than 3/4 mile from the runway threshold. You will see this pilot is not waiting to cross the bridge...heck with that....he is giving himself more altitude and time for the turn and runway alignment.

The park you see coming into view on the Virginia side is Gravely Point, my favorite place to go to watch aircraft land and if lucky feel some down draft from the wing turbulence :crackup: What you do not see which is about two miles to your right is the Pentagon. After 9-11 their was obvious fear about a ground to air myself being fired at commercial aircraft from Gravely Point and it was patrolled by armed police. (All BS...that is another story.) Those patrols are long gone so our mystery laser man could lurk in the park for a timely strike at a very critical point in the approach.

At 2:31 at 12:00 the end of RWY 19 first comes into view. At night the PAPI (precision approach path indicator) can be seen. This offers glide path guidance. There are four lights. If you see two white and two red your are on the right glide path. Three whites too high and three reds too low. (Pilot speak...red your dead!) A laser strike now...forget it!

What you are about to observe is the most harrowing part of the approach. Less than a 1/4 mile form the runway threshold an almost 50 degree turn with 30 degrees bank is made to achieve alignment with the runway. Oh, and one minor point, this is occurring at 424 AGL (above ground level.) Not to mention the 737-800 700 foot per second sink rate, 130 foot wing span, 50 foot tip of the right wing, turning now 200 AGL...calculate last minute wind correction...line up and land. This was fine when the airport was built....for aircraft with propellers! This is hairy piloting even for a C210 although far easier than in a commercial jet.


Hope you enjoy the ride, laser free.

If you like, why not try it at night...that's when I practiced!


Now that you have enjoyed that...a little historical note...January 13, 1982. I was a 4th year clerk with a desire to play Quincy doing an elective at the DC MEs office. It was a bitter cold winter. We don't have them anymore. It was snowing. National Airport would eventually close....not long after Air Florida Flight 90 departed what was then RWY 36 (The change in magnetic deviation results in changes to RWY headings. It is now RWY 1 or 10 degrees.)

The traffic was terrible and I was not about to drive into DC from Alexandria, VA where I was living during my last year. Then I heard the news regarding the crash. It took me forever since the 14 street bridge was closed but I got there. James Dixon, the ME who brought home the Jonestown bodies was the ME at the time. On the blackboard he wrote down, "One Body at a Time." What I remember most was the smell of kerosene (jet fuel) on the bodies and that they were very, very cold having been immersed in the icy Potomac. I will never forget what remained of a woman whose car was hit...won't go there. The passengers received limited exams because the majority died from subarachnoid hemorrhages. If you are sitting upright in a seat, the seat belt only serves to have you jackknife your upper body, head hitting the seat in front of you. Conclusion: the passengers did not know they were going down.

Really weird: all present were questioned by what I realized was a CIA spook. The investigators were looking for a suitcase. This was never published.

Also never published see NTSB: NTSB Report Air Florida were the full finding of the pilot and co-pilot autopsies. They both had fractures of the left foot. At the time, the aviation enthusiasts had already put most of it together. We thought they had their left foot on the rudder although rudders are not used to turn commercial aircraft...they just bank.

For years because of noise and the dangerous approach, there were calls to close National. Congress, who like its convenience, always prevent this. The NTSB report does not indicate that any attempt was made to roll left as required by the departure procedure: RWY 1 departure procedure You see the left turn immediately after take off to 332 degrees. A banking aircraft loses lift.

Is it possible Air Florida attempted that bank and the addition of that loss of lift to all the other factors was the coup that brought it down? Could the NTSB simply left this out. They state the airlons were set for level flight. My point is that if this were the cause and it ever came to light, there would have been a real push to close the airport because of the crazy departure turn required to avoid the prohibited areas. Just a thought.

I have no doubt that interference from a laser could make a difficult landing like that much more difficult, at all.

But what the media are on about is a danger to commercial avaition in the sense of commuter jets carrying 100s of pax, not private aircraft carrying a few. Also, stories are mostly about large internetnational airports that have modern ILS installed, and almost exclusively cater to planes that can use it.

These are planes that can, if need be, land in dense fog and such adverse conditions. They don't need a visual on the runway from any distanc to complete a safe landing, though i think it would be terrifying to attempt it without.

On smaller aircraft with less equipment you obviously need to look out of the window to land safely. You also don't have 2 hours of reserve fuel to circle around and wait for fog to clear or laser-wielding idiots to be removed - you need to land relatively quickly on -something- to prevent fuel starvation.

The upside is that the -something- doesnt need to be as large. With a small aircraft you could more easily choose do attempt landing in a crop plantation - even if that means the aircraft is lost but the pax are likely to survive the ordeal.

Commercial jet liners have the luxury of being able to divert much further - if amsterdam is not doable due to idiots with lasers there are dozens of alternates availaible on reserve fuel.

That said, there are, afaik, no incidents where commercial jets actually landed at an alternate due to people messing around with lasers.

As a pilot myself with a couple thousand hours of flight time at the yoke, I don't think a green laser would cause me any problem at all unless I am landing and for some one to cause a problem they would have to be at the end of the runway shooting right at my forward windshield.

Alaskan said:

As a pilot myself with a couple thousand hours of flight time at the yoke, I don't think a green laser would cause me any problem at all unless I am landing and for some one to cause a problem they would have to be at the end of the runway shooting right at my forward windshield.

Click to expand...

and to add they'd have to have one with a narrow beam and compensate for movement.

btw 589nm can still take out night vision weird huh.

Not as the sole cause i think, but it could make a situation worse.

This could be as extreme as having to make an entirely visual approach because of instrument failure, requiring you to actually look down to assert altitude, with the laser is making that more or less impossible.

It is not something exclusive to aircraft though, bright lights, laser based or otherwise, can also affect car drivers. If blasted from the front with enough power that requires you looking elsewhere, it would be hard to keep a car in a lane or even on the road.
If not you may scrape against the side rail or somthing like that resulting in monetary damage but not usually in injury or death.

But with all that, no fatalities have ever been reported from laser abuse.

Government reaction to ban lasers is absurd since it doesn't seem to pose a real word hazard. If it were raining planes because of $20 lasers being pointed upwards i'd be all for a ban, but there simply is no evidence.

And a pilot deciding to do a go around upon seeing a laser somewhere is more proof of 'no problem' than of 'hazard' - providing the landing is completed safely on the next attempt.

Maybe I'm thinking out of the box ,but if our $20 laser printers are as deadly as the government says ,then why don't they buy up a box of them and train the soldiers to point them up at the passing enemy aircraft. ? Wow imagine how much money they would save?

Hehe, that would be something.

Look up the footage from the "liberation" of egypt. At some point a much of army helicopters fly over tahrir square and the crowd points hundreds of green laser points up at them. They light up quite brightly from that, and no, none crashed.

Starting to get sick of it as well. It's just as bad here in Canada.

No licensing, exceptions or anything. Any laser with a portable power supply >5mW is illegal. Owning one, creating one, buying one selling one, all illegal. Honestly I wouldn't mind just having to get a license, because at least you could actually enjoy this hobby without it being illegal. But thanks to Canada's government, it's completely illegal, with no exceptions. :yabbem:

Lab lasers are allowed, which is fair, but definitely not as fun as handhelds.

ElectricPlasma, the ownership of a >5mW portable laser isn't illegal, just the importation and sale of them I believe. Please give me some sources if I'm wrong because I'm probably, but I'm pretty sure building them ain't illegal. Yet.