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Old 02-02-2013, 06:44 PM #1
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Default Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

So, as we all know, non-FDA approved powerful lasers are illegal (at least in the USA). But, say I wanted to start selling completed ready-to-go lasers here on the forum. I dont have the cash to get into the selling business right now, but just say I do. If I sold a laser to someone here on the forums, would I be at risk of being sued if something were to happen to the customer as a result of using the laser? Like, if they blinded themselves or someone else, or anything along those lines, could I be sued?


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Old 02-02-2013, 06:51 PM #2
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackWidow View Post
So, as we all know, non-FDA approved powerful lasers are illegal (at least in the USA). But, say I wanted to start selling completed ready-to-go lasers here on the forum. I dont have the cash to get into the selling business right now, but just say I do. If I sold a laser to someone here on the forums, would I be at risk of being sued if something were to happen to the customer as a result of using the laser? Like, if they blinded themselves or someone else, or anything along those lines, could I be sued?
Just don't sell it is a complete laser... Make them have to do, something, to complete it....
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:06 PM #3
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

That's what I figured. I guess selling JAD kits would be the best option to go with if I actually were to get into the business someday. Thanks
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Old 02-02-2013, 07:23 PM #4
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Or form an LLC so they can sue your company but not come after your personal assets.
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Old 02-02-2013, 08:16 PM #5
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Thats what my family does with its business :P Also, Make sure you have a sister company incase the first one gets hit :P
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:10 PM #6
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

If you were to sell (knowingly or NOT) a completed laser to a child most injury case lawyers would go after you on behalf of the parents if an injury resulted. . The FDA DOES read posts and threads here and went after one member .. He has not sold any completed lasers since AFAIK. He got 'the letter' and also a 'visit' I doubt that any disclaimer would remove you from liability when it comes to sales of dangerous items to minors.

GL hak
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:15 PM #7
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Maybe we should start using moles lol. Its a light thats focused. I would then sue every company that makes magnifying glasses because it can be used to fucus the sun into a powerful beam with no other mods. It is a complete item. This defense would win the case. This is not a fatal weapon nor can it be treated as such. If you even just sold it without the lens, you could win a lawsuit in court...

I will fight every instance of our government trying to take my rights away. I am active and will continue to do things that they try to charge me for, that I beat in the end. This creates case numbers that can be used to help future humans from being wrongly accused with their lifes ruined...

If your not directly hurting someone or providing something that directly right out of the box will hurt someone, then your fine. If I sell you a 2x4 of wood, and you make a knife from it and stab someone or yourself, you did that on your own...

Points like this win cases. All the Fed is mad about is that you didnt pay your fee for the permit to make/sell things... Just like selling homeade food. It does not have to be gvernment cleared. I can grow and sell tomatoes from my garden. I have heard about a bunch of my friends up north (Chicago) getting fines for not having a USDA approval. They all took it to court and the cases were dropped.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:20 PM #8
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Winning a lawsuit does not mean that it costs nothing to do so, in most cases.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:12 AM #9
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Some shops on here I believe have received cease and desist letters from the FDA about selling completed lasers. Also, I doubt selling just the parts needed to complete the laser will absolve you from responsibility. It's like selling the parts to a gun with instructions. You can sell the parts as just parts, but something that is obviously crafted into a hand-held laser is pushing it.

That said, it's kind of a grey area now, so as long as your stuff flies under the radar you should probably be okay.
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Old 02-03-2013, 04:32 AM #10
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Garoq and I have both had run ins with the FDA. I got personal visits from special agents who had secretly bought a laser from me. They don't play around. A gun is still a gun even if you ship the bolt seperately. a laser is still a laser even if the module is outside the host. Just isn't worth the trouble IMO
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Old 02-03-2013, 05:19 AM #11
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Listen to Mohrenberg, he has been there done that.

FDA is a serious entity, once they have your number you don't shake them loose so easily.

On the civil side - business and product liability insurance is not avaible to protect you so anything can happen.

An LLC will not protect you if you are operating outside US rules and regulations/law.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:48 PM #12
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

How about being the second or third LPFer to fill out the forms and make devices legally?
It is not that hard to do the paperwork and keep the sales records. The yearly report is a joke compared to the paperwork you need to get into college or to get a loan to buy a home. Its absolutely trival compared to the paperwork you need to do to pay a hospital bill if your un-insured.

Guess what, if you have the Fed paperwok done, its far harder for a lawyer to take you to the cleaners.

Steve ( 65 pages, four hours, for one short ER trip, and they lost those, trying to find time for another 4 hours of paperwork to re-date the forms)

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Old 02-14-2013, 07:23 PM #13
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Default Re: Selling lasers - Risk of being sued?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bionic-Badger View Post
Some shops on here I believe have received cease and desist letters from the FDA about selling completed lasers. Also, I doubt selling just the parts needed to complete the laser will absolve you from responsibility. It's like selling the parts to a gun with instructions. You can sell the parts as just parts, but something that is obviously crafted into a hand-held laser is pushing it.

That said, it's kind of a grey area now, so as long as your stuff flies under the radar you should probably be okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohrenberg View Post
Garoq and I have both had run ins with the FDA. I got personal visits from special agents who had secretly bought a laser from me. They don't play around. A gun is still a gun even if you ship the bolt seperately. a laser is still a laser even if the module is outside the host. Just isn't worth the trouble IMO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Encap View Post
Listen to Mohrenberg, he has been there done that.

FDA is a serious entity, once they have your number you don't shake them loose so easily.

On the civil side - business and product liability insurance is not avaible to protect you so anything can happen.

An LLC will not protect you if you are operating outside US rules and regulations/law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSRFAQ View Post
How about being the second or third LPFer to fill out the forms and make devices legally?
It is not that hard to do the paperwork and keep the sales records. The yearly report is a joke compared to the paperwork you need to get into college or to get a loan to buy a home. Its absolutely trival compared to the paperwork you need to do to pay a hospital bill if your un-insured.

Guess what, if you have the Fed paperwok done, its far harder for a lawyer to take you to the cleaners.

Steve ( 65 pages, four hours, for one short ER trip, and they lost those, trying to find time for another 4 hours of paperwork to re-date the forms)

**********************
Each of these Vets- give the kind of advice that should be taken.

the other who have posted here?? not so much.

'Just assemble' handheld kits(or JADs/JADDs) will NOT IMHO absolve you from any/all liability in every case.-- disclaimers, cautions and warnings may not be enough to protect you.

Example-
some think you can do a public not-for-profit laser shows 'legally' if you are not a varianced operator- with compliant and varianced projectors-& you have not filed the neccessary show plan.. and that is BAD advice. What some 'think' is not the same as what we def. know.

Even when we have ALL attendees at our LEMS sign insurance waivers we are still very likely not totally 'legit' at the LEMs- That can only be determinded if and when a LEM gets investgated.

Only a fool would disregard the advice from Steve.

What he writes is NOT just an opinion- it comes from many years of hands-on experience. We are lucky that he posts here..

Well deserved +rep for the advice...TY Steve.....

hak
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