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Old 12-05-2008, 07:52 AM #17
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris.J
I understand that you're what I would consider 'just a kid' now after having looked at your profile - so I understand where you're coming from.

I expect kids to make compromises where they shouldn't and justifications for them - they don't know any better. *
Way to be stereotypical and lump us all together like some kind of product. We're not all stupid.

HumanSymphony has a point, and you have a point. But in your own words, "Apples to Oranges." Just like 5mW vs. 200mW. They don't even compare. HumanSymphony used good analogies, and you are refuting them simply because he is "a kid". Please judge us like equals, not inferiors. There's nothing we can do about our age.

Would you like me to judge you on your post count (something you CAN do something about?) I don't think that would be fair. Let's talk seniority here, since this seems to be important to you. You are older than HumanSymphony. We have no clue who you are or why you joined, but HumanSymphony has proven himself time and time again to be a valuable and helpful member to this forum. Does this make you inferior? No. So why say he is "just a kid"?

I see that you are trying to help us here, but it is often futile to try to change someone's character. This is one of those cases. You're not the sole defender of everyone, and this is obviously a pointless argument because neither you nor HumanSymphony will budge. The best way to teach someone about safety is not to pass judgment on those whose advice you do not agree with; it's to teach them why and why they shouldn't do something, what the dangers will be of not being safe, and teach them the best way to be safe.

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Old 12-05-2008, 01:47 PM #18
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock Mike
KrisJ --

Give up -- he's the product of our American educational system. *

That's what is coming behind us "old" people.

Mike
A shame ain't it? I know now to check for profile age before engaging in debate. I don't debate with kids.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:47 PM #19
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris.J
[quote author=Hemlock Mike link=1228359949/0#14 date=1228453431]KrisJ --

Give up -- he's the product of our American educational system. *

That's what is coming behind us "old" people.

Mike
A shame ain't it? *I know now to check for profile age before engaging in debate. *I don't debate with kids.[/quote]


I'm honestly quite shocked at your responses in this thread. This comment specifically would be treated as flamebaiting on more heavily moderated forums which would result in a single and final warning before being banned. I thought HumanSymphony and rocketparrotlet's responses were very well thought out, and heck a very large portion of the members here are still minors. But that doesn't make anything any less valid....
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Old 12-05-2008, 03:13 PM #20
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

There's no compromising safety. *Period.

The above kids posting about their compromises in safety practice are patently wrong, and that's all there is to it.

Edit:

I'm currently teaching a niece to shoot. *Safety discipline is 95% of that training.

A .177 caliber air rifle is what we're currently training on.
She's doing awesome - developing very good safety habits, and becoming quite a good shot.

As long as she exhibits consistent safety habits and discipline, I am confident and comfortable with her moving up to a .22 rimfire, and then to a center fire rifle from there.

If my niece did not exhibit good safety habits and discipline with the .177 caliber air rifle, I could not in good conscience trust her with a more powerful rifle.

Now, let's talk about capabilities of a .177 caliber air rifle compared to a center fire rifle. *A center fire rifle is definitely more dangerous, because of the more powerful cartridge, propellant, size and velocity of projectile.

However, the .177 caliber air rifle does also pose potential risk when not used safely. *The scope of possible damage is not as much as the center fire rifle, but injury is definitely still a risk - smaller risk sure, but there is still risk.

So, I have two guns with different capabilities and different levels of risk for bodily harm if not used safely.

It is silly for me to teach my niece two separate sets of safety discipline & habits when one will suffice.

Now, copy and paste the above, and replace '.177 caliber air rifle' with '5mw laser' and replace 'center fire rifle' with '500mw laser'.

If you don't exhibit good discipline and safety habits with a 5mw laser, you cannot be trusted to exhibit good discipline and safety habits with a 500mw laser.

Is this becoming clear yet? *If not, I can only assume that it's because you're not adults.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:02 PM #21
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

I wasn't bashing you about safety.

I was bashing the fact that you are flamebaiting on a forum.

From another forum I visit frequently:
"1. Absolutely NO personal attacks.
Flaming or inciting flaming (also known as flame baiting) will not be tolerated, no exceptions."



I DO agree that safety is very important, and your argument is valid in terms of good safety practices being important, but when you mention something like a .177 air rifle the danger is already much higher than some idiot with a <5mW laser pointer.

The FDA states that no harm can be done to you by getting hit in the eye from 5mW. (you can possibly get some damage if you stare at it for a significant amount of time), but let's see you shoot someone in the eye with a .177 air rifle and be completely fine afterwards.

Your argument is more akin to replacing .177 air rifle with "200mw green laser" and "center fire rifle" with a multi-watt high energy CW flaslamp pumped YAG or something similar.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:15 PM #22
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

I'm done in this thread - you're all dismissed. Time for lunch and recess.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:28 PM #23
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

I'd completely agree with your argument if you had used a more realistic substitution for the 5mw laser.

I'm currently teaching a niece to shoot. Safety discipline is 95% of that training.

A ping-pong ball gun is what we're currently training on.
She's doing awesome - developing very good safety habits, and becoming quite a good shot.

As long as she exhibits consistent safety habits and discipline, I am confident and comfortable with her moving up to a .22 rimfire, and then to a center fire rifle from there.

If my niece did not exhibit good safety habits and discipline with the ping-pong ball gun, I could not in good conscience trust her with a more powerful rifle.

Now, let's talk about capabilities of a ping-pong ball gun compared to a center fire rifle. A center fire rifle is definitely more dangerous, because of the more powerful cartridge, propellant, size and velocity of projectile.

However, the ping-pong ball gun does also pose potential risk when not used safely. The scope of possible damage is not as much as the center fire rifle, but injury is definitely still a risk - smaller risk sure, but there is still risk.

So, I have two guns with different capabilities and different levels of risk for bodily harm if not used safely.

It is silly for me to teach my niece two separate sets of safety discipline & habits when one will suffice.



Now notice how this seems a bit odd? If I were to treat a 5mW laser like a .22 rifle I don't think I'd ever use it. You're also still flame baiting which is really quite frustrating.
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:54 PM #24
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Just my $0.02 worth here. There are some young idiots here, and there are some old idiots here. I have been very impressed by the intelligence and maturity level of several of the younger members here. I treat everyone based upon how they present themselves to me. Rocketparrotlet for one, has answered several of my questions i have posted within this forum. I respect him for his knowledge of lasers and electronics, as his knowledge is far greater than mine in these areas. My area of expertise lies within the medical field, and i know my knowledge there surpasses most other members of this forum. However, this is about lasers and electronics and I am at the mercy of pretty much everyone else here. We are all equals, regardless of age.... unless you act like an ass and prove yourself to be less than equal. As i said...... just my 2 cents...for whatever its worth. :

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Old 12-05-2008, 06:51 PM #25
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Although it's highly unlikely that a 5mw will damage your eyes it's still a good idea to be safe with it. That way when you move up to more powerful lasers you already have good safety habits.
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Old 12-05-2008, 07:41 PM #26
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris.J
There's no compromising safety. *Period.

The above kids posting about their compromises in safety practice are patently wrong, and that's all there is to it.

Edit:

I'm currently teaching a niece to shoot. *Safety discipline is 95% of that training.

A .177 caliber air rifle is what we're currently training on.
She's doing awesome - developing very good safety habits, and becoming quite a good shot.

As long as she exhibits consistent safety habits and discipline, I am confident and comfortable with her moving up to a .22 rimfire, and then to a center fire rifle from there.

If my niece did not exhibit good safety habits and discipline with the .177 caliber air rifle, I could not in good conscience trust her with a more powerful rifle.

Now, let's talk about capabilities of a .177 caliber air rifle compared to a center fire rifle. *A center fire rifle is definitely more dangerous, because of the more powerful cartridge, propellant, size and velocity of projectile.

However, the .177 caliber air rifle does also pose potential risk when not used safely. *The scope of possible damage is not as much as the center fire rifle, but injury is definitely still a risk - smaller risk sure, but there is still risk.

So, I have two guns with different capabilities and different levels of risk for bodily harm if not used safely.

It is silly for me to teach my niece two separate sets of safety discipline & habits when one will suffice.

Now, copy and paste the above, and replace '.177 caliber air rifle' with '5mw laser' and replace 'center fire rifle' with '500mw laser'.

If you don't exhibit good discipline and safety habits with a 5mw laser, you cannot be trusted to exhibit good discipline and safety habits with a 500mw laser.

Is this becoming clear yet? *If not, I can only assume that it's because you're not adults.
There's a total diffrence ;D! You can't blow some one away with a 5mW laser, nor could you with a 500mW laser ! I agree with Humansyphony.

And what happened to talking about the safty of my laser :-?? I go to the fourms and see that's there's 24 posts, and I'm like,"Wow! There must be a lot of debating over whether my laser is safe or not and many ansers to my questions!"

And Kris.J, if you were an adult, you woudn't spam up my thread with stupid posts. I'll glady go to my lunch and recess where I can play with my lasers! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


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Old 12-05-2008, 09:31 PM #27
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Simple explanation: adults don't like to be upstaged by kids. Even though my points are undoubtedly valid, he dismissed them because I'm not super old with the wisdom of a 10,000 year old man. Stop with the kids can't do anything crap. Stop comparing guns to lasers. Not only could an air rifle blind you, but you'd lose your eye as well. Metal projectiles != lasers.
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Old 12-05-2008, 10:14 PM #28
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris.J
There's no compromising safety. *Period.

The above kids posting about their compromises in safety practice are patently wrong, and that's all there is to it.

Edit:

I'm currently teaching a niece to shoot. *Safety discipline is 95% of that training.

A .177 caliber air rifle is what we're currently training on.
She's doing awesome - developing very good safety habits, and becoming quite a good shot.

As long as she exhibits consistent safety habits and discipline, I am confident and comfortable with her moving up to a .22 rimfire, and then to a center fire rifle from there.

If my niece did not exhibit good safety habits and discipline with the .177 caliber air rifle, I could not in good conscience trust her with a more powerful rifle.

Now, let's talk about capabilities of a .177 caliber air rifle compared to a center fire rifle. *A center fire rifle is definitely more dangerous, because of the more powerful cartridge, propellant, size and velocity of projectile.

However, the .177 caliber air rifle does also pose potential risk when not used safely. *The scope of possible damage is not as much as the center fire rifle, but injury is definitely still a risk - smaller risk sure, but there is still risk.

So, I have two guns with different capabilities and different levels of risk for bodily harm if not used safely.

It is silly for me to teach my niece two separate sets of safety discipline & habits when one will suffice.

Now, copy and paste the above, and replace '.177 caliber air rifle' with '5mw laser' and replace 'center fire rifle' with '500mw laser'.

If you don't exhibit good discipline and safety habits with a 5mw laser, you cannot be trusted to exhibit good discipline and safety habits with a 500mw laser.

Is this becoming clear yet? *If not, I can only assume that it's because you're not adults.
Why are you so stereotypical?

I don't understand why you treat us all like we are subhuman. Are you trying to start a flamewar? Your analogy is good, yes. But I was not "posting about [my] compromises in safety practices", I was defending HumanSymphony from a personal attack.

That comment about how you refuse to even reply to kids is not only highly disrespectful, it's a twisted flamebaiting attack. I know you have good intentions here, but making comments like this is not demonstrating them.

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Old 12-05-2008, 11:50 PM #29
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Firstly, I would like to say that I do not believe in using safety goggles and I do not care if my laser is not infrared filtered and actually, I prefer it unfiltered. I'm sure many people would consider my "safety methods" to be inadequate or stupid, and I have been called an idiot for my apparent "stupidity." I will never say that playing safe is a bad idea, and if I give the impression that I think safety is stupid, that is not my intent.
I believe that I am aware of all the dangers this hobby includes. I believe that I can be safe without goggles and filters as long as I do not do something I know will lead to injury. I believe that my methods of safety are adequate and effective enough for me even if they are not so for you.
I am no physics major, and I will not pretend to know (or imply that I know more) than anyone here.
I post according to what I have learned and what judgments I have made regarding the information I have gathered. I make my assertions logically and am willing to accept the fact that I am not always right.
I am an adult and a college student.

Knowing this, you (all of you) can choose whether or not you want to read what I have to say.
Whether I have any credibility or not, or whether I have a valid argument or not is subject to your prejudices.






To the original poster, Andrew:

Your laser (If it really outputs 3-7mW) does not pose an immediate and serious threat to your vision.
If you get a direct momentary flash or a reflection you will see spots for a little while just as you would if you were to shine any reasonably bright light in your eye (accidentally or intentionally), but after your vision returns, you will be ok.
Also, the IR output is almost certainly negligible for many reasons, which I will not state here because I don't like repeating myself too much.

However, if you feel you may be at risk of injury or blindness, it is perfectly fine to install a filter or get goggles.
Generally speaking though, ~5mW is not hazardous enough to require these safety measures.
Momentary direct exposure will most likely not harm you severely or permanently.

~30mW is enough to do some damage, but still, not enough to require safety goggles.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you not to look directly into the beam of any laser, or not to stare at any bright light if your natural instinct is to turn away or blink. Common sense should cover that issue.

The reason I do not use goggles, is because:

1. They are uncomfortable- I never needed to wear glasses or sunglasses and I do not like the feeling of them on my face. This distracts me. For example: when I have earphones in my ear with no music, I still have the sensation that I cannot hear properly, which makes it difficult for me to pay attention to everything around me.

2. They look too nerdy- self explanatory.

3. They obstruct my vision- They limit my range of vision and the range of colors that I can see.
To elaborate, in my opinion, this hobby is enjoyable solely because it is visual. If I buy a $200 laser because it is bright, why would I want to wear goggles that make it appear dim?

4. I am safe enough without them- If I owned and operated a multiwatt laser, I would definitely use goggles. However, since all my lasers are in the mW range, I feel I am safe enough. I am quite capable of making sure I don't get accidental exposure, and to this day I have never been directly hit by any of my lasers intentionally or accidentally. With the exception that I once tested the disorienting effect of a ~100mW green laser with a beam expanded to about 18 inches across.

The point is: If you feel this ~5mW laser is dangerous, protect yourself. If you feel you can be safe and responsible with it, you do not need to buy goggles.
If you do ever decide to buy or build higher power lasers, you should seriously consider the dangers and take appropriate measures to protect yourself.
Your safety is up to you.


To everyone else:

Calm down. Be mature.
What works for you may not work for everyone. If you disagree, there is still no need for name calling, condescending statements, or rants.

I agree with HumanSymphony- to each his own.
Safety is never a bad idea but everything is relative.
What makes sense to me may not make sense to you.
As long as everyone here plays "safely" and does not blind themselves (or others), why does the method of preventing blindness matter?

The gun analogy cannot be applied to lasers, or any analogy for that matter, because guns are not lasers. Only lasers are lasers. Guidelines that apply to guns do not necessarily apply to all potentially dangerous items. This gun analogy is often used because it embellishes the danger- but embellishment does not make an argument more valid.

Nobody here is saying that safety is bad, so why is it that everyone takes it that way?

Another thing; Age does not equate to wisdom. Nor does it equate to intelligence.


I feel ashamed that I actually post this in an attempt to solve a problem on an internet forum.
This is the result of melodrama and the "I know better than you!" attitude.
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Old 12-06-2008, 12:29 AM #30
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

this^^^
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Old 12-06-2008, 03:54 AM #31
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

[quote author=RA_pierce link=1228359949/20#28 date=1228524627]
To the original poster, Andrew:

Your laser (If it really outputs 3-7mW) does not pose an immediate and serious threat to your vision.
If you get a direct momentary flash or a reflection you will see spots for a little while just as you would if you were to shine any reasonably bright light in your eye (accidentally or intentionally), but after your vision returns, you will be ok.
Also, the IR output is almost certainly negligible for many reasons, which I will not state here because I don't like repeating myself too much.

However, if you feel you may be at risk of injury or blindness, it is perfectly fine to install a filter or get goggles.
Generally speaking though, ~5mW is not hazardous enough to require these safety measures.
Momentary direct exposure will most likely not harm you severely or permanently.

~30mW is enough to do some damage, but still, not enough to require safety goggles.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you not to look directly into the beam of any laser, or not to stare at any bright light if your natural instinct is to turn away or blink. Common sense should cover that issue.

The reason I do not use goggles, is because:

1. They are uncomfortable- I never needed to wear glasses or sunglasses and I do not like the feeling of them on my face. This distracts me. For example: when I have earphones in my ear with no music, I still have the sensation that I cannot hear properly, which makes it difficult for me to pay attention to everything around me.

2. They look too nerdy- self explanatory.

3. They obstruct my vision- They limit my range of vision and the range of colors that I can see.
To elaborate, in my opinion, this hobby is enjoyable solely because it is visual. If I buy a $200 laser because it is bright, why would I want to wear goggles that make it appear dim?

4. I am safe enough without them- If I owned and operated a multiwatt laser, I would definitely use goggles. However, since all my lasers are in the mW range, I feel I am safe enough. I am quite capable of making sure I don't get accidental exposure, and to this day I have never been directly hit by any of my lasers intentionally or accidentally. With the exception that I once tested the disorienting effect of a ~100mW green laser with a beam expanded to about 18 inches across.

The point is: If you feel this ~5mW laser is dangerous, protect yourself. If you feel you can be safe and responsible with it, you do not need to buy goggles.
If you do ever decide to buy or build higher power lasers, you should seriously consider the dangers and take appropriate measures to protect yourself.
Your safety is up to you.


Thanks RA_pierce! Not to judge people, but your definitly starting to become one of my favorite members here. I have been treating my laser carefully. I think of where the reflection would go before I shine it at something, and at a recent Thanksgiving party, I didn't let my younger cousins use it, even after how much they pleaded.

I'm pretty sure my Laser isn't overpowered, although it is pretty bright. I can understand why 5mW is the max for a reason!
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Old 12-06-2008, 07:23 AM #32
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Default Re: Radioshack Green Laser Danger?

Hmm, I have to agree that its better to get to know what to shine on, and what not to. As for when you'v got your 5mW laser to play with, you very soon learn what not to shine onto, and at what angles you do not want to use.

Me for example. Logic is usually clear for me, but when I got my green 50mW laser, I was having great fun, shining out the window, up/down, and then forth/back. Of course I flashed myself ^^ But it was a nanosecond, and I learned. Of course I know it when I think of it, but I got exited by the laser :P This is stuff you "learn". And if you know you are going to get a bigger laser (50mW -> ) then it might not be any bad idea to learn some safety. I wouldnt go as far as goggles yet, but to think about what you are aiming at is importen. How anybody could state that its a BAD idea, or wrong idea for anyone to get the basic idea of how diferent surfaces reflects the laser, is just to stupid. (Well, I guess we do know what each of us mean, but we like to argue :P It's in the human nature ^^)

Safety is one thing, but everybody earns from getting the basics. Also for that 5mW, even if its not harmfull, its a nice place to just start and learn by your mistakes. I often get exited, and it hits a surface which reflects better than I thought.

For most of you guys, its obvious where you should not shine, but for a person who just got their first laser its not that obvious (bah, probably a lot of misspelling here. :P)

Goggles is another safety-thing you can get if you feel that you need it, if you think you might be unlucky to shine the laser in your eyes by mistake (reflecting). But where to aim is always a good thing to learn.

One thing for example, is when you shine at a reflex ^^ I do the same mistake every time :P Flash, bright light. It always reflects back when you hit a reflex. No mather what angle =)

(Again, there is probably a lot of misspelled words here, but you get the idea. =) I'm of to bed. Its 08:20AM here, just got home from work)

Cheers, no hard feelings ^^
I hope you agree on that part, at least.
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