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Old 03-06-2014, 05:58 AM #17
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Hey Greenlander, glad to hear that there is no serious damage, but I do hope that you did tell your Mom. I am sure that if it was suspected that there was any damage to your eyes she would spend every last cent, or nickel and dime to give you treatment. Please if you suspect even the slightest damage tell her and go and have them eyes checked!


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Old 03-06-2014, 09:16 AM #18
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Sorry about this... But you alway scream at others about protection and now you make a thread about not wearing glasses/owning a good pair? I dont mean to or want to offend you, I just think its a bit ironic I hope you are okay, the best way to find out like many people have said is by seeing a specialist. I must admit that my eye protection consists of a good pair of SUNGLASSES that ONLY protect me from splash, luckily I've never had an accident
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:17 PM #19
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
Originally Posted by zyxwv99 View Post
Turns out I had incipient cataracts and incipient macular degeneration.
(cut)
First grab the laser in one hand. With the other hand, grab the tail-cap. Then unscrew the cap and remove the batteries. Then put the laser in a drawer and leave it there for about a year.

Two weeks later the eye doctor expressed surprise that my symptoms were not as bad as they had seemed the first time.

(cut)

Three months later a miracle occurred. For the first time in medical history, two incurable, degenerative eye diseases showed signed of getting better. The doctor said this was impossible.

(cut)

The doctor examined my eyes, then gave me a wry smile. "Your eyes are perfect."
It's much more likely that the diagnosis of cataract and macular degeneration was wrong in the first place, and the problems with your vision were only due to not wearing goggles (although, a professional eye doctor seeing a cataract, which physically clouds the lens, where there is none, is inexcusable).
The alternative (suggesting that two diseases, defined as incurable by medical science, can actually be cured by just avoiding to do something that not many people do in the first place) makes no sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tha Greenlander View Post
Can't go to an eye doctor as the nearest one is quite far away and my mom(trying to save the most money possible) since this divorce thing is running her to almost nothing, dosen't want the car to be used for anything but emergencies
You should ask her: "What do you care for the most? My health or your money?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by NKO29 View Post
I must admit that my eye protection consists of a good pair of SUNGLASSES that ONLY protect me from splash, luckily I've never had an accident
Josh
Maybe this is just me being naive, but... why?
I've been on this board since February 2009, I got my first laser a year later, and in the meantime I read so many posts emphasizing the importance of goggles, that to me, wearing the appropriate goggles while I use a laser has become second nature. In fact, before placing the order for my first laser, I had waited until after receiving the appropriate goggles. For me, it's simple: no goggles, no laser. Why would anyone do anything different, especially if they know why it's a bad idea? Is it the thrill of doing something dangerous, like eating fugu at a Japanese restaurant? Laziness ("Meh, I just don't feel like it")? Underestimating the danger ("There's just one in a million chances to be hit in the eye, why bother?")? Anything else?
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Old 03-06-2014, 07:28 PM #20
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
Laziness ("Meh, I just don't feel like it")? Underestimating the danger ("There's just one in a million chances to be hit in the eye, why bother?")? Anything else?
Wearing goggles is like double bagging when you're slipping it in. You're safe, but it just kills most of the fun.

With that said, losing your eyesight is 100 times worse than getting the clap, so not really a fair comparison. I ALWAYS use my goggles! NO EXCUSES!

I've used my lasers outside pointing to the sky without protection, but only a couple of times, and still with a bit of fear (I've read that bugs can get attracted to the light and they might run across the beam, reflecting a large amount of light back at your eyes).

Also with the whole thing about people pointing lasers at aircraft, I don't think it's safe anymore to use lasers outdoors anymore.

For the OP, well if it had been me, I would have immediately went to a health food store, bought some really good antioxidants (Alpha Lipoic Acid, Vitamin E, Grapeseed Extract, Lutein) and started chugging them down. Then I would have made an appointment with an eye doctor immediately. If I saw changes in my vision I'd have gone to an emergency room right away, no excuses.

Hopefully OP is ok though. I understand the temptation to take off the goggles is very strong, but hopefully others can see a post like this one and not do it.
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:14 PM #21
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Unless you are wrong and the eye shot WAS direct into your eye- i do not think you have much to worry about= side shot are much less dangerous- I would assume you did do a little damage but i doubt is was bad enough to require some treatment or surgery.
Direst shot are much worse as the lens of our eyes magnifies the power A LOT..

I started a new thread in the TUTORIAL section and suggest you begin a study of laser safety- you may read something in it that wall keep you safer--consider that to be your 'punishment' for making this mistake- also as we do not really have pain receptors inside the eye those 'pains' ....may have been your brain trying to tell you to not EVER do that again. -- A quick glance of the sun leaves after-images too... but you cannot really look directly at the sun long enough to greatly harm your eyes-


best...
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:28 PM #22
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

hak is right. and looking at the sun is a good example. its enough to harm your eyes, but its hard to look long enough to cause permanent damage, but with a laser its instant, so you eyes aren't getting a choice. assuming a perfect path into the eye, even a single mW of red is technically (with some assumptions) over 60-100x as bright as looking directly at the sun! so now imagine what a full Watt does to your retinas!
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:35 PM #23
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Back in 2008, I was on the Subway underground, and I was staring out the window just randomly. At that particular moment, the train happened to come out from underground to top ground, as that particular station was located at top ground. So the window went from almost dark, to the sun being visible point blank to my dark adjusted eyes, getting the max output from it.

Instinctively I moved my head away from the sudden brightness. I was exposed for a fraction of a second, but that was enough for me to get floaters in my eyes that have never gone away since.

I also once shined a 120 lumen flashlight into my left eye by accident at about a distance of 2 feet. The side splitting headache I got from that lasted 2 days.

Both times I got checked out by Eye Doctor, with a retinal picture taken (I've been taking them since 2003) and my retinas checked out fine (thank God! phew!) but he did see the floaters, which he is chalking to normal retinas deterioration (I'm only 34 lol)
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:03 PM #24
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Acoprding to the teacher at the LSO course and textbooks the 'normal' human reflex to bright lights helps us to never see about more than .25 seconds- that is used as the 'standard' exposure when calculationg the MPE --Max Premissable Exposure-- and in 'normal' situations we use 7mm for the opening size of our iris-- this is the reason that when setting up a laser show it is done with ALL the room's other lights on as high as possible but with the lasers turned down as low as possible but still be able to aim at targets- bounce mirrors - or beam stops etc.... My tutorial is very brief ln length- just touching some of wjhat needs to be known to be a LSO. Check it out if you have ever had dreams of working for a laser show company- you will see its not all fun and games--- and everything is done with safety first and lots of redundant tests and precautions--

+5 to 'Future One' and 'ultimatekaiser'-- for the good advice--

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Old 03-06-2014, 09:23 PM #25
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil_Master View Post
Maybe this is just me being naive, but... why?
I've been on this board since February 2009, I got my first laser a year later, and in the meantime I read so many posts emphasizing the importance of goggles, that to me, wearing the appropriate goggles while I use a laser has become second nature. In fact, before placing the order for my first laser, I had waited until after receiving the appropriate goggles. For me, it's simple: no goggles, no laser. Why would anyone do anything different, especially if they know why it's a bad idea? Is it the thrill of doing something dangerous, like eating fugu at a Japanese restaurant? Laziness ("Meh, I just don't feel like it")? Underestimating the danger ("There's just one in a million chances to be hit in the eye, why bother?")? Anything else?
It's quite simple:
It's my choice weather or not to protect my eyes... I have chosen that i'll take the beauty of my lasers over the RISK of damage to my eyes. "Why would anyone do anything different, especially if they know why it's a bad idea?" Because everybody has different ways of seeing things. That being said i make sure to not endanger other people's eyes by use of my lasers.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:25 PM #26
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil_Master View Post
It's much more likely that the diagnosis of cataract and macular degeneration was wrong in the first place, and the problems with your vision were only due to not wearing goggles (although, a professional eye doctor seeing a cataract, which physically clouds the lens, where there is none, is inexcusable).
The alternative (suggesting that two diseases, defined as incurable by medical science, can actually be cured by just avoiding to do something that not many people do in the first place) makes no sense.
Okay, so maybe I exaggerated a little to make a point. The first person who mentioned cataracts and macular degeneration was not a doctor, but some guy in a white lab coat. Call him "the technician." He said he saw a hint of something irregular, but that he wasn't a doctor and couldn't make a diagnosis. I asked him what he thought it might be, and he said maybe incipient cataracts and incipient macular degeneration. We also talked about dark sunglasses. So I went home, looked it up, got the dark sunglasses, and put the laser away.

Two weeks later I see the actual eye doctor. He barely sees a hint of something irregular, doesn't make a diagnosis, doesn't tell me to wear sunglasses, but gives me a complete battery of tests and say to come back for some follow-up exams to see if there's any change.

So basically the story as told here originally is more what it felt like to me at the time. Incidentally, I never mentioned anything about vision problems.
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:38 PM #27
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NKO29 View Post
I have chosen that i'll take the beauty of my lasers over the RISK of damage to my eyes. "Why would anyone do anything different, especially if they know why it's a bad idea?" Because everybody has different ways of seeing things.
Different ways of seeing things must necessarily have a reason to exist, even my "take every possible step to minimize risks for a certain action" vs. your "accept a certain risk in order to appreciate something that cannot be experienced otherwise". I'm going to explain the reason for my argument, I hope you'll explain the reason for yours.

I was a child in the 1980s, when most cartoons and a handful of live-action series showed wondrous places of scientific and technical advancements, where brave warriors used laser guns that were shown to have visible, permanent, physical effects on what they hit. Back then, I would have said that they showed the future. Now, in retrospect, I can say that they showed...

if you get the difference between the two concepts.

That started my fascination with lasers.
During the years, I documented myself on lasers: it was still the 1980s, and I hadn't turned 10 yet, when I had learnt what a ruby laser was and how it worked. The part of the book that described it as "the most powerful laser in existence" never failed to make me go
(funny how it would make me go now instead).
It was only in 2009 when my interest evolved from being purely academic to the intention of actually owning a laser. That was when 200mW red lasers built from DVD burner diodes were at the top of their popularity. Suddenly, the prospect of owning a laser that doesn't cost much, but nevertheless deals visible, permanent, physical effects on matter was very real. For me, that was the moment that marked the beginning of

that stimulated my fantasy so much 20 years before, and that caused me to evaluate the appeal of a laser based on how much it can do, as opposed to the aesthetics of the beam or the host.
That, by the way, is not the only field in which I apply that line of thought. For example, I'd rather have a high-end computer that effortlessly crunches numbers and polygons but resides in the cheapest case I could find, then an underpowered computer inside a designer's case.

And because raw power in a laser is so important to me, protecting my eyes (and the eyes of eventual onlookers) is something I consider vital, to the point that I would never activate one of my lasers without putting on the appropriate goggles first, just like I would never go to work without putting on a pair of pants first.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:39 PM #28
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
And because raw power in a laser is so important to me, protecting my eyes (and the eyes of eventual onlookers) is something I consider vital, to the point that I would never activate one of my lasers without putting on the appropriate goggles first, just like I would never go to work without putting on a pair of pants first.
lol! awesome post!!

A few years back I busted my tricep tendon, and it tooks months to get surgery, and afterwards took years to get back to a reasonable "normal". Now in 2014, I have about 70% the strength I used to have, and I can't just "grab" stuff like I used to. It takes some thinking when I need to grab something heavy so that I don't overload my left arm and cause unnecessary pain.

So in a sense I have a mild disability, and this is a tendon/muscie group that technically is not supposed to do much. Such a simple thing, and I didn't realize it made such a difference until I lost a portion of that ability. Everyday stuff I'm usually ok with, but I can't lift weights like before, and I can't play any sports anymore.

Your eyes are 10 times more important. No amount of unnecessary risk is worth seeing a beam in the air, or a dot on the wall. Even losing one eye would cripple a person so badly, it would be much worse than just having a weaker arm.

I really am paranoid about that. If I really want to see the beams and dots, I will set up a camera to record myself, and then play back the videos afterwards.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:56 PM #29
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Using high power lasers without using safety goggles is like using chainsaws without the proper gear - it's only a matter of time before the laws of numbers see an accident happen. BUT - I admit to being guilty as charged at times, like a lot of us I suspect.

Without goggles you can't properly explore the possibilities of what lasers can do as a lot of laser activity is inherently unsafe - photography becomes difficult and an accident can see eye damage in an instant. Initially I had no goggles when I got my first laser, a 532, and I barely used it until I got some. Didn't even burn a match until I got them a *month* later. For a while I also had nothing to cover my 80mW red, and again that didn't see much love until I got goggles. I've now got goggles covering all the WL's I own and plan to own in the future, and just recently splashed out a further $150 for some ARG goggles. Worth it, IMO.

People in professional settings always wear their safety gear, even when doing things like using a laser to remove tattoos. The same should be applied to the use of lasers for a hobby - although I don't think there's anything wrong with taking off goggles when the situation is control and the lasers are secured in place.

Shining lasers around willy nilly isn't something you can do either. Even to shine them around the room you have to be hyper-aware of what it is going to be reflected off. I almost did myself in the other day shining my 532 around my front room (I just love the beam), I stopped when I realised I was about .5 of an inch off my laptop bezel, a shiny piece of plastic that would have sent the laser shining across my face. It was at that moment I thought

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


-No more shining lasers around the room with my laptop on my lap
-When in doubt wear goggles. Rather enjoy lasers bit by bit than enjoy them for a short time and then have NO EYESIGHT.
-Goggles always within arms length when lasers are operating (and I'll probably look into getting lanyards).

Sometimes it's harder to take our own advice and sometimes we're not as lucky to have close calls - look what happened to xoul - what happened scared the crap out of me but it's another case for being ultra careful.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:58 PM #30
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil_Master View Post
Different ways of seeing things must necessarily have a reason to exist, even my "take every possible step to minimize risks for a certain action" vs. your "accept a certain risk in order to appreciate something that cannot be experienced otherwise". I'm going to explain the reason for my argument, I hope you'll explain the reason for yours.

I was a child in the 1980s, when most cartoons and a handful of live-action series showed wondrous places of scientific and technical advancements, where brave warriors used laser guns that were shown to have visible, permanent, physical effects on what they hit. Back then, I would have said that they showed the future. Now, in retrospect, I can say that they showed...

if you get the difference between the two concepts.

That started my fascination with lasers.
During the years, I documented myself on lasers: it was still the 1980s, and I hadn't turned 10 yet, when I had learnt what a ruby laser was and how it worked. The part of the book that described it as "the most powerful laser in existence" never failed to make me go
(funny how it would make me go now instead).
It was only in 2009 when my interest evolved from being purely academic to the intention of actually owning a laser. That was when 200mW red lasers built from DVD burner diodes were at the top of their popularity. Suddenly, the prospect of owning a laser that doesn't cost much, but nevertheless deals visible, permanent, physical effects on matter was very real. For me, that was the moment that marked the beginning of

that stimulated my fantasy so much 20 years before, and that caused me to evaluate the appeal of a laser based on how much it can do, as opposed to the aesthetics of the beam or the host.
That, by the way, is not the only field in which I apply that line of thought. For example, I'd rather have a high-end computer that effortlessly crunches numbers and polygons but resides in the cheapest case I could find, then an underpowered computer inside a designer's case.

And because raw power in a laser is so important to me, protecting my eyes (and the eyes of eventual onlookers) is something I consider vital, to the point that I would never activate one of my lasers without putting on the appropriate goggles first, just like I would never go to work without putting on a pair of pants first.
Well I am into this hobby for a few reasons:
Building the laser... I love tinkering with things, making things and seeing how things work. I have loved the idea of lasers since I was really young and when I finally got the chance to make one, I did. I love working with the current limiting circuits, battery configurations and figuring out different ways of activating the laser EG: remotely or sensor based. After all of the electric business is done, I love assembling the laser into it's host. The trickier, the better. I have only bought 2 complete lasers (except for shitty pointers) and I have built around 7 of my own thanks to Sinner, Ehgemus and DTR... Not to mention all of the guys on the forum that have helped me. Needless to say building lasers is probably more than half of the fun I get out of a laser :P

Love the forum... Without this forum there would be NO WAY I would have this hobby right now Enough said.

Lastly the Aesthetics of the laser which relates to your question ... As we all know, lasers emit pure light. I am like a moth when it comes to certain colours (blue, yellow, red) I find wearing glasses totally takes away from this. Wearing glasses totally defeats the purpose of having a unique wavelength or even a "normal" colour. There are other ways of protecting yourself from the HARMFUL radiation given off by lasers EG: highly absorptive materials, Not using it in your case, and using it in a reflective free area EG: the sky. I am aware that my eyes are more important then a few seconds of fun, and that is why I never use my lasers where I feel my eyes will be in danger eg: reflective areas, or well populated areas (other's eyes)
Power of the laser only really matters to me, because the more power it has, the more photons are flying out of the laser I am not fond of GREEN lasers, green is probably my least favorite color.
+ The Aesthetics&Functionality of the hosts I choose... Not seen many objects that are comparable to some of the works by some of the machinists in the forum!

Hope that explains my POV when it comes to Glasses - Josh
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:41 AM #31
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Default Re: Might have made a huge mistake...

We should be realistic: a lot of the fun and fascination involved with lasers is seeing them without goggles on. To facilitate this, you must take special precautions. You must: 1) ensure that the laser is aimed at a non-specular target that will not blind you if you look at it, 2) that the laser is firmly secured aiming at that target. For handheld-use, you should first have your goggles on, and do the aiming and holding, and then lower them once you've evaluated the conditions.

Whenever adjusting a laser you should always have your goggles on no matter what because a bad adjustment can steer the beam into your eyes. If it's hard to see what you're doing, break out a digital camera and use the LCD to see what is going on.

In Xoul and probably Greenlander's case, the lasers were not firmly secured and fell to the ground, momentarily blinding the users. That's why it is very important to have your lasers tied down and their mountings firmly fixed.
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