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View Poll Results: When is it ok to shine a visible laser straight into the sky?
<=5mW 5 7.35%
<=10mW 1 1.47%
<=20mW 0 0%
<=50mW 1 1.47%
<=100mW 0 0%
any power 44 64.71%
never 17 25.00%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-11-2010, 05:12 AM #33
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
There's no way in hell that any laser that gets pointed in to the sky irresponsibly makes it through a cloud. Maybe military/lab/observatory lasers, but then they would for sure have the proper training to do so. At cruising altitude, most of our lasers will be at least 50 feet in diameter-meaning you won't even be able to notice it, much less if it's going through a cloud. The danger to pilots is at low altitude, so if you can't see any planes then they're probably too far away to be affected.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Yes, true. A 100mW red laser pointed at a 747 cruising at 47,000 feet will be rendered irrelevant. However, shine a high powered RPL 532nm laser and get a different result. Also no offense, but not all clouds are way up high, nor are all cruising altitudes. I don't cruise a Cessna much above a few thousand AGL. Further, not all clouds are created equal. A very thin cloud layer can block your vision, but not abstract a laser beam. I'm no weather man, but I did go to flight school where I spent many weeks studying meteorology, in addition to other aspects of flying. I can't keep people from doing whatever the heck they want, that's obvious, but my opinion is that we're better safe than sorry--keep your laser out of my cockpit.


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Old 08-11-2010, 05:14 AM #34
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

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Originally Posted by Moebius View Post
The sky over my house is mine. I share some of it with NASA. It's about freedom man, watch the Astronaut Farmer. BUT.......... no BUTTS!!!
Oh how I wish I was somewhere like that (up to 18,000MSL that is, then the sky is classified by the FAA and isn't G anymore). But I'll stick with my ocean views (yay!) and congested airspace (boo!).
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:28 AM #35
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

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Originally Posted by BobFarmer View Post
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. Yes, true. A 100mW red laser pointed at a 747 cruising at 47,000 feet will be rendered irrelevant. However, shine a high powered RPL 532nm laser and get a different result. Also no offense, but not all clouds are way up high, nor are all cruising altitudes. I don't cruise a Cessna much above a few thousand AGL. Further, not all clouds are created equal. A very thin cloud layer can block your vision, but not abstract a laser beam. I'm no weather man, but I did go to flight school where I spent many weeks studying meteorology, in addition to other aspects of flying. I can't keep people from doing whatever the heck they want, that's obvious, but my opinion is that we're better safe than sorry--keep your laser out of my cockpit.
I seriously doubt the cloud thing-but what I was saying was IF, and ONLY if you can't see the aircraft lights it is probably too far away to be concerned. Let's say the aircraft lights become invisible at 10,000 feet AGL. You can probably see them a lot higher up. Even an RPL with optimum divergence of .9mrad will still be 9 feet across (2743.2mm). Even at an output of 800mW, which might happen on a super overspec RPL, the power density will only be .01354mW/cm^2. I'm not sure of the minimum optical damage threshold, but that's well below it.
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:39 AM #36
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

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Originally Posted by ossumguywill View Post
I seriously doubt the cloud thing-but what I was saying was IF, and ONLY if you can't see the aircraft lights it is probably too far away to be concerned. Let's say the aircraft lights become invisible at 10,000 feet AGL. You can probably see them a lot higher up. Even an RPL with optimum divergence of .9mrad will still be 9 feet across (2743.2mm). Even at an output of 800mW, which might happen on a super overspec RPL, the power density will only be .01354mW/cm^2. I'm not sure of the minimum optical damage threshold, but that's well below it.
You can doubt whatever you want, it doesn't change the facts. Go do a few experiments, and maybe also ask around regarding things like oh, fog machines. Never seen one block out a laser before, but maybe that's just a coastal US thing since most of my houses are in VA or CA. Next time I'm in CO, PA, or MI I'll test it there since I don't like making assertions upon which I have no basis.

Meanwhile please see my post as well as the post by aryntha which I referenced. Neither of us fixated on damage. We discussed disorientation. As aryntha says, there are times when we won't care, and there are times when it could seriously endanger our lives.

This is getting too ridiculous for my tastes. You go on shining your lasers wherever you want and thinking whatever you want, and when laws come around you can act all surprised and pissed. Meanwhile I'll stand around thinking "Damn, if only people would have listened."
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Old 08-11-2010, 05:50 AM #37
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

Lol, seriously? I never suggested shining a laser "wherever you want", just that is was safe when there was no indication of an aircraft. "I don't like making assertions upon which I have no basis" I think you do.... You can't argue with the math, dude. I'm not even sure .01354mW/cm^2 would register with your eyes unless you were staring right at it, which is pretty damn difficult if it's hitting the underside of your vehicle, and maybe glancing the window. Not super disorienting if you can't see it. And you know how clouds are white? That's because super dense water vapor is great at throwing light in all directions. And believe it or not, I HAVE experimented with this, so please follow your own advice and don't make baseless assertions. I've been on aircraft and shined lasers at night though normal cloud cover at night, the tight beam of my greenie was completely dissipated within a few dozen yards. And if any more laser laws get passed, they'll probably be the result of baseless fear and paranoia, not reason. Not because I pointed my highly divergent blue laser into the empty sky.

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Old 08-11-2010, 06:05 AM #38
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

Someone here mentioned flight tracker? That's really cool, I've never seen it before.
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:15 AM #39
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

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Someone here mentioned flight tracker? That's really cool, I've never seen it before.
I think it only works with certain planes or something... but I want to try it out. Have you ever tried those satellite tracker sites? You can go outside and watch low-orbit satellites pass overhead.
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:25 AM #40
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I think it only works with certain planes or something... but I want to try it out. Have you ever tried those satellite tracker sites? You can go outside and watch low-orbit satellites pass overhead.
Ya, aryntha says Cmode planes only. Also, thats really cool with the low-orbits, back when i had my overpriced cable i left it on the NASA channel so I could see the ISS's flight path, do you have any links to said sat-trackers?

EDIT: You'll have to change the airport, but here's a link to it. Flight Tracker- KTUL
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:39 AM #41
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

I used NASA - Science@NASA J-Track 3D the last time I did it. I haven't in a while though... I should sometime.
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:50 AM #42
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

I'll have to ask My Dad what He uses. I know he has a couple. He has his 14" reflector up and running in his observatory. We go out occasionally when I am visiting if one of the brighter ones goes across.
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:53 AM #43
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

^^ Nice Flight Tracker.

I'll use it every time now. ;p
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:59 AM #44
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

Really cool stuff there, thanks. I find it funny that only three sats show up when you click "US Defense" and none when you click "Airforce"... You know they've got a few, in fact, just a few weeks ago I read about amateur astronomers accidentally discovering a new US Spy plane that collects data from a fully adjustable orbit, much like the shuttle but unmanned (so they say) and obviously for more sinister assignments than ISS resupplies...
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:14 AM #45
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

Lol, the military is funny like that. The most expensive projects you don't even hear about...
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Old 08-11-2010, 07:18 AM #46
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

Ya, I heard the ABL did a low-powered test fire to test it's targeting systems, but i didn't hear about it until the official report was released a month later, which put my panties in a knot because apparently this test flight put it landing at the TUL boeing facility and IWANNASEEIT!
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

Hey there,

I'm writing this from a commercial pilots perspective. I realise that there is already one here, but its written more along the lines from someone the flies in General Aviation.

First of all. Most of the people on this forum wouldn't be stupid enough to be pointing a laser at aircraft. But I would like to get a few points across to you.

The question must be asked. Why would you want to point a laser into the cockpit, or at a aircraft in the first place? If you were on a aircraft, would you be happy if someone left their seat, walked into the cockpit and covered the pilots eyes? How about if they went in there and rubbed dust into their eyes?
Obviously the beams affect us if we have made a big enough complaint to bring in laws against it! No matter what you think down there on the ground. It DOES hit the cockpit.
If you want to do a bit of research, look into how long it takes for a human eyes to adjust to be able to see in the night. We then do our best to keep the cockpit dim enough to preserve this vision for the entire flight. A simple flash into the cockpit is enough to destroy our night vision. Let alone leaving the eye more susceptable to damage!
Sure we can see where we are going, but the small things such as birds that may have been scared into flight, or other airborne items will not be seen.
The hudson river incident is enough to point out the real hazard that we face.

Here are just a couple of incidents that have happened in the cockpit of the past few months in Europe, Australia and America.

"I was over Germany at FL370 (37,000ft above sea level) last week and RYR aircraft were reporting l@ser light at the same altitude. I saw the source but wasn't directly targeted. I too was a bit surprised at the ability to target at 6 miles away, people are clearly getting hold of pieces of kit that you don't find on key rings or white board pointers."

"This problem as recently arrived at Muscat.

Unfortunately for pilots - there is a park that is situated about 2 to 1 mile final from the threshold of 08, positioned right on the extended centre-line, which can have hundreds of picnicking families in it of a weekend.

Green l@ser reports are on the increase. As is the activities of one spastic with an air-band transceiver who thinks its a great idea to repeat back some clearances and block the frequency.

One poor IL-76 jockey had his flightdeck lit up by, according to him, no less than four beams on take-off from 26 out over the park. They are always low initially - he did not get dinged in the eye but said it was bright enough to cause a distraction."



"Whilst cruising at FL230 over northern Greece (overhead KVA) the flightdeck was bathed in green light. Having pulled down the glare visor I was able to see a ground based l@ser pointing at the aircraft (the captain independently verified this). Has anyone suffered a l@ser nuisance at a level such as this before?! I'm at a loss to explain how the guy was 1. Able to aim it with such accuracy for 10 secs 2. Even own a l@ser with the power to reach 4 miles up!"



"A few weeks ago, on final approach into Nice at night, some **** was shinning a green l@ser at our aircraft. It was seen by both pilots and myself, No.2 cabin crew at the rear of the aircraft. It was extremely bright."



"Watch out if your flying into Nap at night, a very regular occurence."



"I was l@ser attacked three weeks ago on the intercept to the LOC at 3,800ft at midnight in England.

As PF (pilot flying) I was forced to hand control to the FO (first officer) and had a residual after image all the way down the approach. The initial flash made me wince, it hurt and I swore. I spent the next morning having photographs of my retina being taken. I spent most of the night before worried sick that my eyesight had been damaged and that my medical could be withdrawn.

I was suprised at how bright the l@ser was.

I was incapacitated, no doubt of it."



Obviously in some cases the beam is diluting before it hits the cockpit and is a wide beam of light before entering the cockpit, others, and the ones where people are complaining of incapacitation is when they are at the lower levels, yet still over a 1km above the surface of the earth.

Also remember the cockpit window is not just a simple layer of glass for the beam to pass through. It is multi-layered with it giving a shower of light through the cockpit when it is hit.


All I can ask is for you guys to do your best to discourage this. Its just plain stupidity and dangerous. We wouldn't ask you not to if it wasn't.
lilflyboy262 is offline  
Old 09-14-2010, 04:52 PM #48
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loosekannonn loosekannonn is offline
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Default Re: Lasers and aircraft

has anyone considered the possibility the people that are pointing lasers at aircraft... on purpose are actually up to no good.
taking into account the fact that 9/11 just passed it is plausible that persons that would place others in harms way are targeting passenger aircraft in hopes to cause disaster with little to no evidence to speak of.

just postulating...



Quote:
Originally Posted by lilflyboy262 View Post
Hey there,

I'm writing this from a commercial pilots perspective. I realise that there is already one here, but its written more along the lines from someone the flies in General Aviation.

First of all. Most of the people on this forum wouldn't be stupid enough to be pointing a laser at aircraft. But I would like to get a few points across to you.

The question must be asked. Why would you want to point a laser into the cockpit, or at a aircraft in the first place? If you were on a aircraft, would you be happy if someone left their seat, walked into the cockpit and covered the pilots eyes? How about if they went in there and rubbed dust into their eyes?
Obviously the beams affect us if we have made a big enough complaint to bring in laws against it! No matter what you think down there on the ground. It DOES hit the cockpit.
If you want to do a bit of research, look into how long it takes for a human eyes to adjust to be able to see in the night. We then do our best to keep the cockpit dim enough to preserve this vision for the entire flight. A simple flash into the cockpit is enough to destroy our night vision. Let alone leaving the eye more susceptable to damage!
Sure we can see where we are going, but the small things such as birds that may have been scared into flight, or other airborne items will not be seen.
The hudson river incident is enough to point out the real hazard that we face.

Here are just a couple of incidents that have happened in the cockpit of the past few months in Europe, Australia and America.

"I was over Germany at FL370 (37,000ft above sea level) last week and RYR aircraft were reporting l@ser light at the same altitude. I saw the source but wasn't directly targeted. I too was a bit surprised at the ability to target at 6 miles away, people are clearly getting hold of pieces of kit that you don't find on key rings or white board pointers."

"This problem as recently arrived at Muscat.

Unfortunately for pilots - there is a park that is situated about 2 to 1 mile final from the threshold of 08, positioned right on the extended centre-line, which can have hundreds of picnicking families in it of a weekend.

Green l@ser reports are on the increase. As is the activities of one spastic with an air-band transceiver who thinks its a great idea to repeat back some clearances and block the frequency.

One poor IL-76 jockey had his flightdeck lit up by, according to him, no less than four beams on take-off from 26 out over the park. They are always low initially - he did not get dinged in the eye but said it was bright enough to cause a distraction."



"Whilst cruising at FL230 over northern Greece (overhead KVA) the flightdeck was bathed in green light. Having pulled down the glare visor I was able to see a ground based l@ser pointing at the aircraft (the captain independently verified this). Has anyone suffered a l@ser nuisance at a level such as this before?! I'm at a loss to explain how the guy was 1. Able to aim it with such accuracy for 10 secs 2. Even own a l@ser with the power to reach 4 miles up!"



"A few weeks ago, on final approach into Nice at night, some **** was shinning a green l@ser at our aircraft. It was seen by both pilots and myself, No.2 cabin crew at the rear of the aircraft. It was extremely bright."



"Watch out if your flying into Nap at night, a very regular occurence."



"I was l@ser attacked three weeks ago on the intercept to the LOC at 3,800ft at midnight in England.

As PF (pilot flying) I was forced to hand control to the FO (first officer) and had a residual after image all the way down the approach. The initial flash made me wince, it hurt and I swore. I spent the next morning having photographs of my retina being taken. I spent most of the night before worried sick that my eyesight had been damaged and that my medical could be withdrawn.

I was suprised at how bright the l@ser was.

I was incapacitated, no doubt of it."



Obviously in some cases the beam is diluting before it hits the cockpit and is a wide beam of light before entering the cockpit, others, and the ones where people are complaining of incapacitation is when they are at the lower levels, yet still over a 1km above the surface of the earth.

Also remember the cockpit window is not just a simple layer of glass for the beam to pass through. It is multi-layered with it giving a shower of light through the cockpit when it is hit.


All I can ask is for you guys to do your best to discourage this. Its just plain stupidity and dangerous. We wouldn't ask you not to if it wasn't.
loosekannonn is offline  
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